Jordans disaster

AngelofFire

what has gone wrong with Jordan 4 years ago they were on the 2nd and 3rd rows of the grid in every race. now they are struggling to stay ahead of the minardis. In 99 they finished 3rd on the grid 2 and a half years later they were faced with technical turmoil and the prospect of total collapse. Eddie Jordan doesnt seem to be pushed about challenging for the championship any more. Fords engine programme this season seems to be even more badly run than Hondas was. instead of talking about fighting for title Ejs preaching that the sport needs the human element of privateer teams. i agree with with him but i dont think something like that is worth embracing unless you are able to compete with the big guns.
Gary Anderson the honest man he is is admitting that there are a lot of problems at jordan.
http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html

Skyclad

They are one of 2 teams on the grid who dont have a major engine supplier backing their every move with almost limitless $$$. The fact that they have remained above Minardi, and to a certain extent Jaguar (who have a more advanced version of the same engine) is testament to the actual success the team continues to achieve despite massive difficulties. To challenge for the title means selling out to one of the big manufactureres, which EJ chose (...) not to do when the opportunity arose a number of years ago. If that had happened, it would no longer be Jordan, and as such there is no possibility that Jordan could challenge for a title without a major revision in the rules that favour the smaller competitors and less so the big manufacturers.

Dave

tomcosgrave

Dave, the car is an absolute dog though :-( I know the engine situation compromises their ability to spend, but my god, they are so mediocre. They were much better than this in the days of the Hart engine - going out there and being able to fight at some of the races.

But now? It's painful to watch on TV, to be honest. Fisi will leave to go elsewhere because this isn't where he wants to be, and Ralph Firman, well god knows what he'll do, but I think he's been coping really well with little in the way of testing and experience.

Once Gasgoigne left for Benetton (now Renault) and Sam Michaels left for Williams (around 2000, I think) the team failed to find replacements that were up to the job.

In my humble opinion, EJ needs to take his head out of his bum and go and look for what he's credited for being so good at looking for - talent!

PH01

No amount of talent will save Jordan now. What they need is cash and lots of it. But the way things are now there is very little of it around.
Hopefully Jordan will survive to take part next year.

Kalina

Jordan's performances this year and last year have been cringeworthy, as EJ's face show's during every race. I don't think it's from lack of trying on EJ's part though, he never gives up his hunt to sign talented drivers (look at Fisi) and new engines (ie his clinching the deal with Honda, he couldn't predict that the engine would be a dog or that Honda would choose to supply 2 teams). His recent dealings with Ford haven't paid off for him unfortunately but it's early to suggest that they may not be around next season. EJ has made a lot of mistakes, firing Frentzen was one of them imo, but he always survives and I think he'll get the team back on track in the next few years. He needs to be challenging and beating BAR, Jaguar, Sauber and Toyota on a regular basis and he knows he needs a major engine deal to do it. Maybe he'll get his mitts on the budget mercedes package that's been menntioned, that would spell big and positive changes for Jordan.

tomcosgrave

It's not the engines that have been at fault this year (Honda were a bit dodgy all right) - it's the people designing and building the car, and it's the people running the races. They're either not good enough or not experienced enough. Sam Michael was a huge loss to the team...maybe if they'd promoted him to the position he now has at Williams, he'd still be at Jordan.

The design office seems to be a mess - first Mike Gasgoine takes off and then Eghbal Hamidy takes off because of a spat with Anderson, who is now back in the fold after leaving over a spat - where are the big name designers? I think Henri Durant is there at the moment, but when was the last time one of his cars (Ligier / Prost machines) did any giant killing? I don't remember seeing it. Gasgoine and Hamidy on the other hand, produced some really decent cars that shook up the circus on several occasions. Maybe EJ should try and poach Frank Dernie away from Williams, with a history in world beating car design, and one of the major reasons behind their recent return to form, that would be a hell of a coup.

The build quality of the car has gone down a lot - the car has been unreliable in the last few races, and it's not been down to the engines - they're the same engines as Jaguar, and look how well they've been doing compared to Jordan....

Those are my views anyway...

GreenHell

Well hmmm, Jordan the only way there going to hit the points again this season would be by attaching an ooze to the front of the car.

Jordan are screwed with the large manufacturers becoming more dedicated with select teams, jordans downfall can be charted back to when EJ sold a big chunk of the team to a merchant bank instead of a manufacturer.

Hopefully the reduction of engine sizes will cause a plateau in terms of horses under the hood and design becoming more and more important, I think then Jordan might return to the days of 99 and 00.

Oh ya, the merc engines which their supposed to getting next seasons are going to be better than the current jag engine which they would be getting if they keep in this ford deal which is costing them shed loads.

AngelofFire

The engines that jordan use are the ones that were used by Jag last year. they were due upgrades for the british grand prix but sadly they didnt come. gary anderson said that the chasis has barely improved since melbourne so that doesnt help the situation. I dont think Henri durand did a good job at designing the EJ13 he did well for mclaren in the 80s but his ideas are outdated. Stephen Taylor who is Jordans chief composite technician should replace him as chief designer. He designed an excellent car in the 2001 sauber.

GreenHell

To be honest any designer is going to be limited at jordan their wind tunel is well out of date. Jordan need investment to the tune of 100 million to get even close to the big guys again. The 100 million a season and even then they'll need some more and teams competing not to be last aren't going to get any sort of major cash.

dmeehan

the rte race team said numerous times that jordan had signed a big sponsorhip deal, but didnt elabourate

does anyone know anything about this deal?

Töpher

well, i dont trust the RTE commentary (even though i'm not a james allen fan i watch UTV religiously, cuz martin brundle is fantastic), i remember once watching it and one of them (the boring one! HA! which?!) started getting all excited about punctures or something cuz one of the front runners (this was last year, so forget who!) had put in a lap 0.3s slower than his previous one! it's too over the top with no excitement, if ya follow me!

as for jordan, has any one else seen the rumours of them being jordan-mercedes next year.... (it was on itv.com/f1, and f1-live.com. all be it a few weeks ago) cuz mercedes are looking for another team (its either jordan or minrdi, who wont have funds), who will LIKEY get this years merceds engine, and the chasis of the m4-17-D (or whatever the current mclaren is called!). IF that comes true, it would have the team up with Renault next year i figure, there was also speculation that WHEN Fisi leaves (he will, as much as i hate to say it!), Alex Wurz is under a mercedes contract....

I dunno, much of this is rumour, but it keeps me hopeful for next year, cuz this year is depressing! 22 possible points finishes (11 races, 2 cars) and jordan have had 2 finishes in the points, it pains me to watch!

AngelofFire

Apparantely Jordan are close to getting merc engines. According to f1 live. Fisi is awaiting confirmation that the EJ14 will be powered by Mercedes before he makes a decision about his future. http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html

Töpher

Well surely that if nothing else should push EJ to Mercedes, as if having a competitive car and engine isn't enough, having Fisi drive for his life in one would be sweet! The guy's mega! And credit to Firman, was doing well at Silverstone there on Sunday! Well, to stay ahead of faster rivals for as long as possible, I think he's contracted to JOrdan for next year though? But maybe he'd be better in a faster car? (DUH!) =D but for a rookie he's not doing bad, did better than Pizzonia (who, until now, had a better car!)

jonno

Jordan need three things:

1. A bucket load of cash - so they can afford the wind tunnell time to improve the current 'dog' that they call a car. It's completely inefficient as an aerodynamic package. Also so they can afford a top class driver, someone in the same mould as Fisi and the complete opposite mould of Ralph Firman.

2. A new engine deal - well it's apparent to everyone that they are down on power with the current Cosworth engine. After so much hype about it, I think everyone has been disappointed with Cosworths package. Go get the Merc EJ.

3. Mike Gascoyne

Töpher

ah dear ol' mike, imagine the machine they'd have if he was still on board

Kalina

I heard rumours that Toyota may have poached Gascoyne away from Renault for next year. Renault need to kepp him for another couple of seasons at least so he can build on the great car they presently have.

I think Firman and Fisi are a good team, they are doing the best they can with the current 'dog' of a car, as jonno so well puy it. Ralph has proved himself to be consistent in his rookie year imo, so given a better chasis with a mercedes engine we could see him score points on a regular basis next year. And we all know that if Fisi had the right car under him he'd be a winner! I can see him going to Sauber for their connections with Ferrari, Fisi is Roman which would fit in so well with the Ferrari team. EJ won't be able to keep him for long unless the Jordan makes huge improvements by next season.

Töpher

well apparently today jean todt has told fisi to keep on dreaming, cuz thats as close as he'll ever get to driving a ferrari...

its at www.f1-live.com

Kalina

Originally posted by Einstürzende
well apparently today jean todt has told fisi to keep on dreaming, cuz thats as close as he'll ever get to driving a ferrari...

its at www.f1-live.com

I read that in a few places but you know how fickle F1 seems to be. Who does Jean Todt want to partner Michael for the next couple of seasons? He's in no rush to sign Rubens and there's no chance of somebody great like Juan Pablo or Kimi or Jacques ever wanting to partner Michael. I think Fisi would be a great choice, though I think Ferrari may have their eye on Massa.

Robbo

Originally posted by Kalina
I think Fisi would be a great choice, though I think Ferrari may have their eye on Massa.

Which is why the current rumour is for Ferrari to put the two of them in Saubers next year and see which one does better, then move the better one into Rubens' seat for 2005.

Kalina

I'd put my money behind Fisi rather than Massa cos he has the experience and he probably wants it more. Massa could stay at Sauber for a couple of seasons and then step into Ferrari when Michael finally retires.

GreenHell

We had Mike Gascogine back when we were a team that could win races

TBH even if we get the merc engine its still technology thats a year behind and its not really going to do the businiess we want it to.

Don't mind Firman to be honest his a consistant little racer and won't be the worst second driver for jordan next year.

Jordan also need someone who can do race tactics, infairness Jordan have been terrible in this regard it makes me sad to see chances missed by jordan when they feck of on some high risk stratergy that they don't have the car to pull of.

So hmm were does that leave us. Back of the mid field runners I'm afriad I'll still support them but short of an injection of cash nothing is going to happen.

I think Eddie needs to take a step into the backround, most people thing his an asshole now so that can't be good.

Töpher

Yea, massa 'could' do that, but, as a racing driver I'm sure he's not thinking that way (or will be, should i say!), surely if he believes a drive with ferrari for 2005 is a possibility he's going to be trying just as hard as fisi? i mean, i'm no ferrari fan, but the cars fast, and as a racer thats gotta be tempting!

The Beer Baron

When I think of Jordan I cannot shake off one enduring image:

We follow the camera into the tunell.
We watch the cars drive inside.
We wait, we watch them all driving out.
Vroom! Vroom!

We watch Takuma Sato exit sidewards.

I blame him for all Jordan's problems, past present and future (if any). I prayed for him to crash into a wall and die. For his engine to explode and watch him be ingulfed in a fireball screaming and flailing his arms about as his flesh became charred to a crips.
I absolutly HATED him.

Yes, I'm living in the past, yes. And I've never gotten over EJ canning Frentzen either. The reason for this being I haven't been able to watch a single race this year because I'm working on sundays which really pisses me off. All I get is to read the articles and look @ the lap times on the computer- and, if I'm lucky catch the highlights before the girlfriend hijacks me and starts telling me about her day. But from what I gather the package this year is SO bad that when a Jordan drives past the men in the Minardi pits titter.

On topic- well- Jordan look screwed.
They need money- and this time they *really* need to use it wisely. They've taken waaay to many risks before. Personally I think Eddie's instincts aren't as sharp as they were and certianly not as sharp as he'd like to think they are. I'm left wondering were they ever?

We watched them pussyfoot about with Mugen Honda, then horray we got the Honda, and Honda were crap. And now Ford- what an absolute lemon. I think we all agree that the actual chassis is a joke too. And what I've seen of Firman (very little as I've said), well he's steady, but doesn't seem to want to compete so much as get the car home in one piece regardless of his position. And now we're gonna loose Fizzie? Oh please don't make it be true? I'm a big fan of the Fiz and if he left I honestly would loose all hope.

Oh lordy lordy it's hard to be a Jordan fan!

Töpher

But from what I gather the package this year is SO bad that when a Jordan drives past the men in the Minardi pits titter.

It's true ya know! Seeing as minardi are no longer alone as the slowest (yet one of the best!) teams on the grid! i mean, there's been quite a few races this year where verstappen and wilson have been ahead of the jordans for a bit, usually jordan got past, but still! its not funny!

jordan need money, thats a big yes, but to get money they need good sponsors, and well, if anyone was thinking of sponsoring them before germany, they wont now! thats was just embarassing! i mean! yeurgh! fisi was essentially going around with his pit limiter on! or thats what they say, maybe the car is just THAT slow!

mike65

It does'nt help his cause but taking legal action which is then dropped against Vodaphone at an estimated cost of 6 million quid!
Thats 7 months use of an old Mercedes V-10 engine!

Mike.

Töpher

good point

and not only that, i think it could deter potential sponsors, seeing as vodafone were taken to court cuz jordan believed they were orally offered it, i mean, if you're talking seriously with them about sponsorship and then decide not to do it, ya dont wanna get dragged to court over it!

however i'd have LOVED it if they did get 150m though! maybe enough to help design a good car! or buy ferrari's designs!

mike65

Just to keep the bad news ticking over Firman crashed this morning at 150 mph and as of now I dont think he'll be racing...?

Also it sounds like Ford are bean counting as they rack up losses so will thier motorsport interests be curtailed? Mind you that could be a good thing for Jordan!

Mike.

celticfc

Originally posted by mike65
Just to keep the bad news ticking over Firman crashed this morning at 150 mph and as of now I dont think he'll be racing...?

It was a nasty schmack all right straight into the tyre barriers. Jordan will have to look into how that rear wing suddenly came off.

Here's the video of it if any of yez missed it,

http://www.btinternet.com/~aaron.edwards83/ukf1/hungary_03.html

chernobyl

It was a crack and it was present in all their wings for this GP. They may be forced to pull out if the FIA see it as unsafe.

Barcelona/Minardi.....