ESB to go live with Power Line trial

Dangger

We're into 7th or 8th generation powerline technologies now Urban. Difficulties with passing through transformers have been improved upon if not completely sorted.

Info on SSE Telecom's scheme here.

mike65

The Six O Clock news on BBC1 had a feature on Scortish Hydro
Power using thier grid to bring BB to the rural masses. Looked good, no prices mentioned but presumbaly they're comparible with phone line BB.

Mike.

Urban Weigl

Moriarty, I don't have all the facts about powerline in Germany (all I know is that it was being tested, and that users were limited to 250 megs of data transfer a month), but the one in Scotland is still a pilot project.

Capt'n Midnight

If only ....
If only they's link it in to VOIP in such a way you could keep your existing number

It'd be like the pied piper all over again.....

Unlike the telco's ESB are generally competent , other countries use them as consultants .... and as far as advertising is concerned all they need to do is add a flyer in the bill... so less overheads...

Xian

Originally posted by Moriarty
From what i remember there are comerical offerings of this in the northern england/scotland areas and in germany. Both undercut xDSL prices and provide a bigger connection (synchronus 1mbit for ~ €30 iirc).

This price may not, and in Scotland is certainly not, indicative of the cost of providing the service. The Scottish Hydro-Electric Powerline service is heavily subsidized, IIRC. Also note:

8) Under the trial customers can receive an impressive 2Mbit-ps service for just £25 per month, far outstripping most of your competition from ADSL and cable suppliers. How is such a price obtainable (what makes it so much cheaper)?

The price for the trial is set to ensure that a payment is being made, somewhere in line with market rates, but at a reduced level to compensate for the trial nature of the deployment.

Moriarty

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
Moriarty, I don't have all the facts about powerline in Germany (all I know is that it was being tested, and that users were limited to 250 megs of data transfer a month), but the one in Scotland is still a pilot project.

Scottish Hyrdo Electric's comercial offering of 1mbit symetrical for £30/month.

There appears to be (after a quick google) a number of german companys offering services for various prices/connection speeds but i cant give specifics as my german is rather rusty unfortunatly. They all seem to be offering services at this moment in time though.

Urban Weigl

Could you please paste the addresses of powerline in Germany here? I would be happy to translate the important bits. Just so you know, I really hope that powerline succeeds in Ireland -- it's just that I have my doubts as there has been no proper large scale rollout beyond Hong Kong that I am aware of. And while I know a lot of the problems relating to the technology have been resolved, some have not.

Moriarty

http://www.vype.de/
http://www.piper-net.de/
http://www.drewag.de/
http://www.evo-ag.de/
http://www.linzag.at/linzweb/index.php?id=640
http://www.mainnet-plc.com/

<edit: http://www.enbw.com also seem to be referenced in a few places as doing it>

Eurorunner

a number of german companys offering services for various prices/connection speeds but i cant give specifics as my german is rather rusty unfortunatly. They all seem to be offering services at this moment in time though.

Powerline was first trialed in Germany in Mannheim in 2000. It is currently available through the power companies in Dresden, Magdeburg & Mannheim. In dresden, for example, costs as follows:

2mb line /€45/month/€120 setup fee. no cap.

Could you please paste the addresses of powerline in Germany here? I would be happy to translate the important bits.

Urban Weigl: You'll get all the info for powerline service providers and tarifs here

I really hope that powerline succeeds in Ireland -- it's just that I have my doubts as there has been no proper large scale rollout beyond Hong Kong

Well, i dont have any technical knowledge of these things but one thing that does strike me is that these three areas where powerline is available in germany have a very high population density - so im sure its easier and more cost effective for them to roll out something like this than it would be for the ESB in rural ireland.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.hydro.co.uk/broadband/ - enter a UK postcode !

Up to 20 times faster than dial up
Symetrical speed of downloading and uploading
Always on - No phone line needed
Unlimited email addresses for all the family
Unlimited web space

Simply plug in the broadband modem. There’s no need for new wires, cables or phone lines and you can use your PC and your phone at the same time

Broadband from Scottish Hydro-Electric will work on most computers that can have an ethernet connection (NIC card)

Residential £29.99pm / Business £40pm
then is a choice of 12 Month Contract (£50 install)
or 28 Day Rolling Contract (£120 install)

From the FAQ
We have had a variety of enquiries from both within the UK and worldwide.
I am working with a regional electricity company outwith the UK, what support can you offer to help us develop this unique service?
We have received considerable interest from outside the UK; both enquiring about our service and requesting help conducting similar trials. While we are keen to encourage other electricity companies to develop this product we are committing our efforts to develop the service within the UK.


Availability for BT1 1AA

Sorry, Broadband from Scottish Hydro-Electric is currently not in your area, however please click the button below to register your interest.

broken links - http://www.hydro.co.uk/legal.asp
http://www.hydro.co.uk/acceptableuse.asp

Eurorunner

actually, just reading a bit further on that german site that reviews all possible broadband options in germany.
It doesnt give powerline a good review...says that its possible to get connections up to 2mbit/s, base stations serve up to a hundred connections and the end result is a poor broadband connection of 100/250kbit/s. they use the word 'flop' in their review of the service:rolleyes:

If it comes through its a bonus..but i dont think anyone of us would mortgage the house on it working out:p

Urban Weigl

I do not know if the following may be of interest:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,42874,00.html

Paddy20

Urban Weigl,

Yes, very interesting and a new site that I will be keeping an eye on in future. Encouraging as well. We might just get out from under the Eircom Rats boot sometime soon.

Capt'n Midnight

Users will have to purchase a special modem for about $160 –- roughly the same price of a DSL modem -- and then pay a $23 monthly rate that will allow them to transfer 250 megabytes. Additional data transfer will cost 6 cents per megabyte.

Kinda different to the Scottish prices...

oscarBravo

Gonna throw this in: Brendan Minish posted a ham radio user's perspective on ie.comp.

Whatever about powerline, Brendan knows his stuff where radio is concerned.

Of course it's too good to be true!

It is called Powerline Telecommunications (PLT) or BPL (in the US)

There are big problems with this as it involves sending radio
frequencies down power cables, unlike normal twisted pair (Cat 5,
phone lines etc) the power lines leak like sieves becasue the wires
are not twisted and are widley spaced apart, allowing noise into the
system, and much more worryingly for users of HF radio allowing much
broadband noise to escape.


The interference problem is a very big issue indeed, here are some
links (mostly in some way ham radio related since that is my involvemt
with HF radio)


http://www.rsgb.org/emc/pltnew.htm

http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2003/07/08/1/?nc=1


there are many other problems that impact on the cost effectivness.

How to get around transformers, lots of live line work required to fit
PTL to the lines. Distance issues (despite the hype it will NOT reach
further than DSL) distances are of the order of 2,000 feet from the
BPL equivalent of a DSLAM.


There is another way, Wireless

this can either be long reach wireless, comreg have set aside Plenty
of spectrum for this but no takers yet
or it can even be based on license free spectrum (AKA wiFi and it's
relataves )

actually the ESB could fit in quite nicely here, they have an
extensive infrastructure that can be used to cheaply get fibre all
over the place, indeed there is already some fibre in place on parts
of the ESB network .
poles and pylons can be used to support antennas for wireless
broadband. Pylons are already used for mobile phone base stations in
parts of the country.
this would use existing proven, non-polluting technology and avoid
many of the problems associated with injecting end extracting data
from high and medium voltage lines

Does anyone know where the intended trial areas are or who the
equipment suplier(s) to the ESB are?

I can be contacted directly by E-mail on this issue

bminish at oceanfree dot net



Below are a couple of articles about PLT that have been posted to
usenet recently.

1/


From: Rob Kemp (robkemp90210@hotmail.com)
Subject: The myth that BPL is a solution for rural broadband
View: Complete Thread (31 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna, rec.radio.amateur.dx,
rec.radio.amateur.equipment, rec.radio.amateur.policy,
rec.radio.shortwave
Date: 2003-07-20 08:43:53 PST

The claim that BPL is good for rural deployment is yet another myth
propagated by the BPL lobbyists. In essence it is bait and switch. The
BPL strategy is to get the FCC to allow the high levels of
interference / pollution as the FCC is focused on getting broadband to
rural communities that don't have it.

In reality, if the BPL lobbyists succeed, they will immediately focus
on the wealthy suburban markets that are profitable (and already have
cable and DSL) and ignore the rural areas.

DSL can work out to about ~ 16,000 feet from the central office. BPL
can only go 2,000 feet from the BPL equivalent of a DSLAM, then BPL
needs an expensive repeater installed by a linesman trained to work
with 11,000 volt cables. So for a 16,000 foot run 8 BPL repeaters are
needed.
At the customer's pole transformer a bridge will need to be installed
to couple the signals from the 11,000 volt line to the 110 volt line
(imagine what would happen if the bridge failed and your sockets had
11,000 volts!!).

However the math is worked, there is no way they can implement this
vast array of expensive equipment in rural areas with any hope of
meeting the alleged pricing.

The existing DSL broadband technology is proven and could be provided
to almost everyone who has a phone, the barriers are political not
technical. The solution to universal broadband lies in ensuring the
phone companies serve all of their customers equally. BPL is a broken
and polluting technology that is a pure distraction to the objective
of universal broadband.

oscarBravo

Continued: (sorry about the length of these, but it's interesting stuff)

2/ Sorry about the messy formatting



RFI from the power cabling system : the righ technology for the right
job...
A reprint from Peter Cochrane article,
http://www.silicon.com/petercochrane
This document is a reprint from a short article published on
Silicon
website in which the author reminded how can be hard the fight against
administrations when hams rights were derided.



For a decade now business plans have arrived on Peter's desk, in
increasing numbers each year, but only a small percentage find their
way to commercial success. Remarkably the author see very little
correlation between plans. Here are his commentaries.



There is however a major exception where the same plan seems to arrive
on my desk every year. Each time it is presented as revolutionary and
ground-breaking. But it is always the same technology and it is always
as flawed and as misconceived as the original I first saw a decade
ago.

News reports often included to amplify the case are along the
following lines : XYZ Company is proud to report broadband internet
trials are underway using a ground-breaking technology that will
revolutionise radio, TV, cable TV, internet and data services to the
home. Existing electricity power cable can supply all of your digital
services at speeds up to 50 Mbits. Extensive laboratory trials have
proven this technology, and testing with customers is at an early
stage. If fully successful a commercial rollout is planned within the
next three months.

It is then customary to include a CEO interview that says something
along the lines of : "All the obstacles have been overcome. The
technology is now proven, stable and economically viable, and we are
in a position to revolutionise the last mile. We also predict this
technology will see the demise of the telco in the next decade..."

Partner companies usually keep their names secret in anticipation of
further announcements to be made later that year and the technical
press always seem convinced it is all true. But about 6-12 months
after the announcements the companies involved quietly say they are
ceasing trials and development because some alternative technology has
been discovered. It then goes very quiet and nothing more is heard.

NB. Internet trials via the electricity cabling system : What say
Europe ?

Similar trials are currently undertaken in Austria, Belgium, France,
Germany, Luxembourg and Switzerland among other european countries by
electricity power companies.

Such trials are in violation of the european regulation that states
that "everybody has the right to use the frequencies at the condition
to not bother the other users". However, it appears that these private
or national companies are far to respect this law.

Amateur radio is a service that we pay yearly and as such, if we can
not practice this activity we should have the right to require an
exploitation losse.

Unfortunately neither our national representative ham associations
(DARC, UBA, REF, RSGB, etc) nor the concerned IARU delegation can
oppose to this criminal practice.

Ham associations have discussed about this problem in the offices of
the European Commission at Brussels, but without to get the slightest
action or result up to day...

Confronted to such laxism and to lobbies that are standing by,
recently Hilary, alias G4JKS gave up her fight against
administrations, hence the publication of this article that the author
ask us to publish as often as possible on the Internet.



I wouldn't find this so upsetting if it only happened once but to my
knowledge there have been dozens of false dawns. If only the people
involved would visit my office I could save them a small fortune. At a
modest estimate, over $200m has been expended to date and no one has
been successful in transmitting significant amounts of data over power
cables to the home.

I can guarantee no one will get this technology to work as advertised.
It might be appealing and economically attractive but I'm afraid the
basic laws of physics cannot be sidelined. For anyone contemplating
the waste of another $5-30m here is my 'don't do it' shortlist:

- Power cables employ low-grade plastic that is unfriendly to
high-frequency signals as the absorption per unit length is very high.
This alone precludes transmission of high-speed data over significant
distances.

- Power cables are not physically symmetrical and are therefore very
effective antennas. They radiate energy from high-speed data signals
which becomes a source of interference for wireless services including
broadcast radio as well as emergency, maritime, aeronautical, military
and navigation services. By reciprocity they also suck in energy from
every local radio source which further degrades data signals.

- As signals propagate along cables they become weaker but the
switching transients from washings machines, refrigerators, vacuum
cleaners, electric drills, light switches and other appliances are
huge, do not decay at the same rate and swamp data signals.

- Switching transients on power grids with generators going on and off
line, dynamic load sharing, fault and maintenance work, all induces
massive transients that also swamp data signals.

- Cable joints, transformers, power meters, the on/off nature of
electrical appliances and the topology of power grids create large
load changes and multiple signal reflection points. This creates a
dynamic echo environment where the transmitted signal is further
corrupted.

- Real time communications of any kind - whether by telephone, radio
or TV - are taken out by the huge voltage transients inherent to power
lines and ultimately the data rates achievable for non-real time are
also very low.

- Transformers and power meters require a workaround as they present
an absolute block to any high frequency signals.

This is a short disaster list that says this technology will not work.
Andthe real nail in the coffin? Telephone and cables were designed to
carry far higher frequencies than 50Hz power cables and in every
aspect offer superior performance for all data applications. And more
recently wireless technology is becoming so low cost and so high
performance that signal processing requirements for data over power
cables, even if it were possible, would be prohibitively expensive in
comparison.

In many locations the power companies have installed optical fibre
along their power lines for telemetry related to the control of power
distribution. Because their data requirements are so meagre huge
amounts of bandwidth are available. So it does make sense for wireless
technology to be used at that end point, in a distribution mode to
attack the last mile.

Despite all of this there are more than 20 power companies currently
active across Europe planning or conducting trials. The reported field
performance results are very poor, as expected! Installation costs are
higher than the telcos and cablecos. Yet they still seem determined to
become the biggest source of radio interference on the planet.

And the ultimate decider? It looks as though the politicians will be
asked to decide between the power and wireless lobbies on the legality
of the interference levels.

Contrary to a widely held belief, all the technology necessary to
transform the local loop is to hand, and sporadic solutions such as
data over powerline are a bit of an economically driven red herring.

So please, will the next candidate thinking of sending me another
business plan with a revolutionary technology that will exploit power
cables please employ someone who understands Maxwell's equations, data
transmission and holistic economics.

This column was compiled in a hotel lobby between meetings and
despatched via a Wi-Fi link that appeared without identification -
thanks to whoever decided to provide this charitable service.

This document is also published on many personal websites, among them

http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/qsl-rfi-electricity.htm

spongebob

Originally posted by oscarBravo
no one has
been successful in transmitting significant amounts of data over power
cables to the home

The technology maxes out at about 2Mbps . Copper and Wireless can beat that easily.

It could provide some infill supply where there are problems with wireless. Copper is a write off here as it is all owned by Eircom and we face a situation where much valuable wireless spectrum in BIG TOWNS will go to 3G .

Ironically, Powerline may be needed in those big towns rather than in Rural areas and especially in old suburbs where the copper is sometimes so old that it has transmuted to lead

M

Urban Weigl

RWL Powerline, as far as I know the biggest company planning a rollout in Germany, have now abandoned their plans. After investing millions to test and develop the technology, and planning a nationwide rollout. The reason? It was not viable.

Their web site -- http://www.rwe-powerline.de/ -- pulls up a DNS error now.

It isn't all bad news though; there is still interest in the technology, money is still being invested, and many problems are being resolved (i.e. you can now get high quality television, telephone, video conferencing and more down the pipe, at least that is being tested by a company in the US). The problem we have here is that Eircom controls all the copper.