Drackionian measures on our roads

MDR

The recentily introduced penality points systems effect on reducing road deaths is waining, despite the enormous number of penalty points handed out over the first six months of the year. now ignoring all the computer systems yet to be implemented etc ... are we really being serious about speeding/drink driving et al in Ireland, do we have the stomach to be really serious ?

Will there alway be a back door out ? as there was (and perhaps still is) for drink driving. I am simply pondering, do we as a nation have it in us to implement and enforce the drackionian measures required to curbe our driving excesses ?

Don't get me wrong, I amn't advocating anything, I am just exploring an idea that occured to me. Let say we reduced the number of penalty points required for a ban to 8, we upped the ban period to 5 years, we imposed a mandatory 2 year sentence for drink driving, using your mobile while driving is 2 penalty offensive ....

Would this sort the problem out, is it a road we want to go down ? Is it implementable ?

Sparks

Is there any precedent for our society rigidly applying any rules?

Seth Brundle

Drinking and driving is still accepted by the gardai in rural areas - I guess it is too in the rest of the country as there wouldn't be the same amount of cars in the pub car parks if they didn't acccept it!

Boston

Anbody who drinks and drives, has a drinking problem, or a death wish. I don't think upping the number of penalty points will have any effect on this. Also there are plenty of banned drivers still on the road.

sceptre

Boston's right IMHO. The problem is detection and prosecution, not the penalty that comes from it.

seamus

I think the problem is three-fold.

First of all, you have the lack of detection and enforcement of such crimes. Gardai are already heavily overstreched, and as others say, in rural areas, the Gardai turn a blind eye to it. I even know people who've gotten what's practically a Garda escort home! (ie. the Garda car follows them home if they're *really* drunk)

Then you have your small punishment. Poor driving isn't punished very heavily, and due to aforementioned lack of detection, the number of repeat offences don't tend to stack up easily, except in rare cases. The penalty points system relies heavily on catching repeat offenders to work properly. Drink-drivers can be back on the road as quickly as 6 months later, and their insurance, in the case of older drivers, will still be an order of magnitude cheaper than a 21-year-old's with no previous convictions. I would be stricter than MDR's suggestions, i.e. Lifetime ban for no insurance, drink-driving, or death by dangerous driving - as well as a few other draconian ideas

Lastly, there's also an attitude problem. Here in Ireland, Drink-driving is only demonised in the media, but overall people tend to accept it, so long as a person isn't doing it all the time. In the younger age group, it's less accepted and more frowned upon, but even so, almost everyone has their stories of the time they "drove home, still locked from the night before, etc etc". The U.S. population (it would seem) takes a far dimmer view of drink-driving, and even they way they 'rehabilitate' drink-drivers - by assuming they are alcoholic - despite being laughable and corrupt, mirrors the feeling of the population at large. The US is a tad extreme, but many European states are similar, where drink-driving, and other less serious offences (driving without due care and attention) are something you don't tell *anyone* about for fear of being excluded and looked down upon.

Personally, I wouldn't know *how* to turn a public's attitude on such things, though I know it can be done. Anti-drink-driving ads aren't even remotely effective IMO.

Sparks

You also have to look at the fact that not only is driving not monitored properly, but it's also not taught properly, nor is it examined properly.

It's yet another example of how we just don't do things the way we should.

MDR

Personally, I wouldn't know *how* to turn a public's attitude on such things, though I know it can be done. Anti-drink-driving ads aren't even remotely effective IMO.

Seamus,

I really see where you are coming from and complete agree, as with many things in Ireland, half the problem in public condonement, everything from drink driving to cheating taxation. All the years of the infamous 'drink driving' campaign seem to be having an increasingily numbing effect on the public. Perhaps we are even endanger of reaching the stage where these type of ad's nolonger get a response.

Something that worked on me, under very difficult circumstances of course, was a lecture I attend given by a local AA group. That really had an impact on me, the things I heard and saw, really hit home at just how damaging drink can be. I think we insulate ourselves to a certain degree from things we see on the tv, it goes in one ear and out the other, but if there is someone sitting in front of us, recounting their expierences, its very different. I really would advocate seeing this type of thing in our schooling system and even perhaps making it part of the standard curriculum, perhaps its time we started teaching our kids more about life skills etc.

Tackling our culture of condonement (and defeatism ... but that of course is another arguement) is probabily best started in our school system, it will be difficult to carry it on to the older generation, where attitudes are more ingrained. Perhaps for the older generation draconian measures will be the only effective tool, I doubt very much though that older generation would have the stomach to impose such measures on itself.

Sparks

Something that worked on me, under very difficult circumstances of course, was a lecture I attend given by a local AA group.

Or you could go and sit in an A&E department's waiting room on a saturday night. If that doesn't tempt you into being a teetotaler, you may need the AA for real...

Kell

I for one think seriously heavy measures should come into force for driving offenses, however, there are more problems than just drink driving and speeding in my mind that are responsible for road deaths.

What surprises me is how no-one is very loud in shouting about the state of the fúcking roads. Over the last 8 weeks or so, I have been all over the country, mainly Mayo, Galway, Kerry Limerick etc, and for me it's no fúcking wonder that these counties have some of the highest road deaths in the country considering the state of the roads in these counties and the nutters that drive on them. What also stood out is the absolute lack of speed traps on really dangerous roads. Where is the logic in doing someone for doing 42 on a 40mph stretch of stillorgan dual carriageway where theoretically it is safe to do 80mph, when there is no cop doing no-one doing 80mph on a stretch of road in Mayo where it is not safe to do 50mph.

A question that I have considered for some time is, is it possible for the Irish public to sue the Gardai, the government, the road authority etc for not doing their job? Everyone knows that in certain parts of the county your OK to have x amount of jars on you and not be done, or theres a stretch of road where you can speed and not get caught. The only reason this happens is because the authorities turn a blind eye to it. I think that if the authorities turn a blind eye, they are not doing their job and they should be done for it and held accountable for the carnage.

Thoughts anyone.

K-

Sparks

I don't think any one individual could take the NRA or the Gardai to court over the state of the entire road system - they wouldn't be able to say that they had a direct personal interest in the whole roads system. It ought to be done though.
The problem is that the authorities in this country (and most others) have no sense of accountability to the people they're meant to be serving.

MDR

kell,

In the past few weeks I have driven from belfast, to dublin, to cork, to kilkenny, to meath, to limerick and to kilarney, not necessarily in that order. I would be the first to back you up in the fact that the roads are not perfect, but when you compare them to the state they where in five and ten years ago there has been a hell of an improvement.

Especially when I was in meath (an I scoot around there quite a bit) and limerick, there wasn't one shagging pot hole to be found. Its unfortunately our major routes such as part of the N1 in Dundalk and the Naas (just two that happen to stand out in my head, for doing damage to my car) aren't up to scratch. Although I can say with a certain degree of certainity, that the quality of our road, particularily our rural roads is steadily improving.

As for the question of speeding in rural areas, from what I understand, if you don't pass a 'speed camera' warning sign before you get snared by a speed camera, it counts as 'entrapment'. So therefore garda can only hide in very specific spots, long stretchs with no turns on to them, which are appropriately sign posted. I don't understand the in and outs of this part of the law very well, but suffice to say it isn't a simple as dropping a Garda and a camera on a specific road, and letting him/her go at it.

Also you mustn't forget that in most rural area the problems associated with Garda man power (because of low population distribution) are much more pronounced. You will often find that one Garda, stationed in a part time station has responsibility for a very large area etc (very often more than two villages), having someone doing traffic duty would required an extra man/woman, these resources very often aren't available. I suppose more fixed speed cameras in these areas really would be the way forward, under these circumstances.

Villain

I worked in a bar in fairly small town for 8 years and I think the drink driving issue boils down to the following:

People know the chance of getting caught during the week is very slim so will chance it more often, but won't on weekends or around xmas when they know the chance of getting caught is much higher, or you have people wait until after 2 am when the police go off duty.

The problem doesn't lie with the punishment but the detection rate, and the fact that some people in small towns think there untouchable.

Also the fact that some members of the police force are seen to drink drive makes people say well F**k them if they can do it so can I.

On speeding, it's much the same really as drink driving people know where the guards are likely to be and when there likely to be there. I'm currently living 50 miles from home and drive home twice weekly I've been doing this for a month now and I have never seen one speed checkpoint. In fact I have never seen a speed checkpoint after 11pm and when you consider that a large majority of road deaths occur after 12am thats a little weird isn't it??

This is just my opinion based on where I live and my experinences of 5 years driving.

growler

whether drunk or not the standard of driving on the roads of Ireland is terrible. A great leap forward could be made by tightening the provisional license laws, making every geriatric with a car retake their test every 5 years or so and to use fines to pay for road improvements.

Then if we had a high percentage of competent drivers who knew the rules of the road we could feel safer when on the road. The garda speeding policy is a farce, which has created the "getting away with it coz i can beat the system" culture . While their stated motive is to reduce road speed and ultimately accidents , in reality they still hide behind bushes on long straight roads (ideally with little or no traffic to have aforementioned accident with) waiting for someone to catch. Speed is not the problem , the driver / the other drivers on the road generally are.

I have no sympathy for drunk drivers, but the onus is on society to revile them for it which is a long way off in Ireland. Starting education about driving in school would be a good way to prevent new drivers learning bad habits from their unqualified father / brother / mother and could instill a sense of driving rights and wrongs. Drunk drivers who kill themselves might be entitled to a suicide verdict from the coroner.
Give some exam credit for it even for uni applications, or even privatise the testing to clear the backlog and raise the standards.

Villain

You are talking about 2 seperate issues growler.

Good drivers and responable drivers have different meanings.

I know people who would past the driving test every year but they also speed and drink drive!!, simply because they know the chances of getting caught are very very slim. Too many roads too little guardai.

Victor

Enforcement is everything. Put the very fear of God into people, much as clamping has done.

Just a tale I heard, at the opening of the Boyne Bridge, everyone drove, after all it is on a motorway .... then they went to the free bar ..... inlcuding soem people from the NSC.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1016986#post1016986

When they come to revise the speed limits _ I think the general limit should be 60kmh (60mph now) and only increase it if it is warranted (motorways, main roads, no fronting houses, few junctions) and a 30kmh limit in urban areas.

MDR

Just a tale I heard, at the opening of the Boyne Bridge, everyone drove, after all it is on a motorway .... then they went to the free bar ..... inlcuding soem people from the NSC.

Good ole hearsay ....

Imposter

Originally posted by Victor
When they come to revise the speed limits _ I think the general limit should be 60kmh (60mph now) and only increase it if it is warranted (motorways, main roads, no fronting houses, few junctions) and a 30kmh limit in urban areas.

Are you crazy?
Look at europe (from which I have current experience)
A 30kmh speed limit is only neccesary in the vicinity of schools and other such areas with large amounts of children or perhaps an accident black spot within a town (if such a thing exists).
If this was introduced in all built up areas a lot of cyclists would be breaking the limit! A 50kmh limit in urban areas is the norm and works well. After all that is less than Irelands 40mph but still not as ridiculously slow as you're suggesting.

Similarily 60kmh on most normal roads is too slow. Perhaps 80 but not sixty. Then 100kmh for something like main roads which are of a relatively good standard and few enough junctions etc. And then 130 or even 140 for motorways providing they're long enough (these do not exist yet in Ireland) and not overly crowded. 100kmh is enough on town motorways such as the M50 imo.

But were you serious about that 30 and 60kmh idea?

seamus

Originally posted by Imposter
If this was introduced in all built up areas a lot of cyclists would be breaking the limit!

In fairness, 99% of cyclists will be travelling about 20kph. The only cyclists you would ever find going 60kph would be pros out training - and you're hardly going to find them flying down some potholed crap road through estates, they'd be out on the dual carraigeways.

Victor, 60kph is far too slow. 80kph (50mph) is far more reasonable as a national speed limit. Some country roads can take 70mph in parts, and others can only take 30mph for their entire length, so I think 80kph is a reasonable tradeoff.

The 30mph urban speed limit is perfect. 50kph is 31.25mph, so that would be ideal (and probably what they'll use).

30kph is in fact, just trolling

Villain

Originally posted by seamus

Victor, 60kph is far too slow. 80kph (50mph) is far more reasonable as a national speed limit. Some country roads can take 70mph in parts, and others can only take 30mph for their entire length, so I think 80kph is a reasonable tradeoff.

lol

Changing the speed limit will have zero affect, 60mph is correct on the majority of roads. What I don't understand is why car's are not being limited, I mean allowing people to go in and buy cars that are capable of going at speed well in excess of 100mph just does not make sense!!

Imposter

Originally posted by seamus
In fairness, 99% of cyclists will be travelling about 20kph. The only cyclists you would ever find going 60kph would be pros out training - and you're hardly going to find them flying down some potholed crap road through estates, they'd be out on the dual carraigeways.

....

30kph is in fact, just trolling

Not true. I know people who cycle to work and it's about 10km and they're doing 35kmh some of the way. This is obviously only in parts as traffic lights tend to slow things down a bit.

And ye he is trolling.:D

Headcase

i think it would be very difficult to re-educated the older generation on, for starters, most older people never had to do a driving test.
my father for instance, never did a driving test, yet he has a licence for car, van, truck, bus, tractor, argtic, etc...
not saying my father should have all his licences, he's a good and responsible driver. but you you have to look at the point of view that a lot of people never did a test.
you can do your test, fail and just renew your provisionable.

I think that driving should be thought in school to a degree, but bear in mind, that an old idiot can just set up a driving school and teach. there aren't any certs or particular licences needed.

also the double standard issue with the Gardai, they can drive fast, why can't we is the attitude of most people, the Gardai that liberties and abuse their position.

Victor

By the way guys, I’m not advocating 30kmh for the Stillorgan Dual Carriageway or parkways. I’m talking about urban areas, not sub-urban.

Originally posted by Imposter
Are you crazy?

Yes.

Originally posted by Imposter
Look at europe (from which I have current experience)

Do we have the same conditions as mainland Europe?

Originally posted by Imposter
A 30kmh speed limit is only neccesary in the vicinity of schools and other such areas with large amounts of children

No - it is necessary anywhere there is high pedestrian / vehicle conflict – housing estates / “homes zones”, shops, pubs, public buildings, playgrounds & parks (exits tend to be limited in number).Tehn agin most people only do 30mph so they can race to the next traffic lights.

Originally posted by Imposter
or perhaps an accident black spot within a town (if such a thing exists).

Yes they do. Mostly busy crossing points and junctions, tight bends and humpback bridges and the like. However, inappropriate speed on main roads through towns is a major killer, in particular places like Dundalk (most dangerous place in the country) and Waterford City.

Originally posted by Imposter
If this was introduced in all built up areas a lot of cyclists would be breaking the limit!

The limits only apply to mechanically propelled vehicles. I have yet to hear of people being killed by a speeding cyclist – a bike just doesn’t have the killweight of a car.

Originally posted by Imposter
After all that is less than Irelands 40mph but still not as ridiculously slow as you're suggesting.

Not really ridiculous when you realise virtually no pedestrian will survive a 40mph accident, some will survive a 30mph accident and most will survive a 20mph accident.

Originally posted by Imposter
Similarily 60kmh on most normal roads is too slow.

This is Ireland - think (a) road conditions (b) weather (c) people have problems sticking to limits already.

Originally posted by Imposter
And then 130 or even 140 for motorways providing they're long enough (these do not exist yet in Ireland) and not overly crowded.

Ballinteer to Dundalk via the M50/M1 is nearly 100km all of which are probably designed (curves, sight distance, road surface, bridge strengths) for 120kmh.

Originally posted by Imposter
But were you serious about that 30 and 60kmh idea?

Yes.

Originally posted by seamus
In fairness, 99% of cyclists will be travelling about 20kph. The only cyclists you would ever find going 60kph would be pros out training.

Yeah, I used to invariably average about 23-25kmh over a span of years, whether on urban or rural roads. Best I've done is 30kmh over 20km and 40kmh over 1km.

Originally posted by seamus
Victor, 60kph is far too slow.

On a twisty country road over a hump-back bridge?

Originally posted by seamus
Some country roads can take 70mph in parts

I would only approve of such speeds on either a dual carriageway and / or a limited access road (e.g. Cork-Mallow road where there are very few houses or field with direct access to the road).

Originally posted by seamus
The 30mph urban speed limit is perfect. 50kph is 31.25mph, so that would be ideal (and probably what they'll use).

No it isn't - it is not suitable in city / town centres or in housing estates and the like.

Originally posted by seamus
30kph is in fact, just trolling

No, just righteous indignation.

Originally posted by Headcase
also the double standard issue with the Gardai, they can drive fast, why can't we is the attitude of most people, the Gardai that liberties and abuse their position.

The Garda drivers also do a mandatory advanced driving course and are usually responding to an emergency, they are reducing risks to others (e.g. at a bank robbery), by getting there quicker.

Headcase

i mean Gardai drivers in general driver faster because they know they can get away with it, who's going to stop them.
i'm not talking about emergency responses, thats different.
I've seen Gardai drive up to traffic lights, and are just to impatient to wait , so i little flash of the lights and away they go.
i have nothing against the Gardai, i just think that they have to realise that they have to set an example to everyone else and they are always being watched

Villain

Originally posted by Victor
On a twisty country road over a hump-back bridge?

So are you going to have every road in the country catergorised for a different speed limit??

The only way to deal with people driving too fast for the road there on is have it policed,now obviously police can't be on every road in the country but if they spent more of there time on the dangerous stretch of roads rather than on the dual carriageway we might start catching the people who drive dangerously.

And Victor there is a difference in driving dangerously and speeding, I could drive my main road at home at 90mph (I don't) and not be as much a danger as and inexperienced driver driving 60mph on a back road, but who's more likely to feel the brunt of the law??

Me of course

Boston

I'd like to know where in dublin city I can get over 35 Km an hour (i know you said 30) with out total feicign the car up, or at 2 am

seamus

Originally posted by Victor
On a twisty country road over a hump-back bridge?

Yup. That's what warning signs were invented for. Besides 37mph (60kph) is quite slow. Any qualified driver should be able to negotiate most obstacles easily at that speed, and anyone who can't shouldn't be driving. That, of course, is another issue

Speeding isn't a big issue anyway IMO. Speed does kill, but not as much as poor judgement and drink-driving. Fine, lowering the speed limit might save one extra pedestrians life, but if I had my way, most roads would be inaccessible to pedestrians, with plenty of designated crossing areas and jaywalkers heavily fined.

I don't trust half of these feckers to walk safely down the street, never mind drive a vehicle.

Victor

Originally posted by seamus
I don't trust half of these feckers to walk safely down the street, never mind drive a vehicle.

Well statisticly you are more likely to be killed while "lying on road" as 5 'pedestrians' were killed in this mamer in 2001.

Victor

Originally posted by irish1
And Victor there is a difference in driving dangerously and speeding, I could drive my main road at home at 90mph (I don't) and not be as much a danger as and inexperienced driver driving 60mph on a back road, but who's more likely to feel the brunt of the law??

Indeed, but risk of accident needs to be balanced with result of accident. a 90mph accident is likely to be a lot more serious than a 60mph one.

Originally posted by irish1
So are you going to have every road in the country catergorised for a different speed limit??

No I am saying set the rural default at 60kmh and specificly set 100kmh (or whatever) for a safer road. You can still have your 30mph, 40mph, 50mph, 60mph, 70mph zones.

Category					Current	Current	My		Increase/
						Limit	limit	suggestion	decrease
						(mph)	(kmh)	(kmh)	

General urban					30	 48	 30		-38%

Special suburban				40	 64	 50		-22%

Acceleration / deceleration zones		50	 80	As necessary	

Rural roads (currently national limit)		60	 97	 60		-38%

Three and four lane roads			60	 97	 80		-18%

Limited access roads & 
certain dual carriageways			60	 97	100		  3%

Motorways					70	113	120		  6%

Accident black spots				As necessary

Sparks

The only way to deal with people driving too fast for the road there on

Well, "physics" does spring to mind as a solution, but it looks like car manufacturers think that the inability to take a 170° hairpin bend at 90mph is a bad thing...

rcunning03

I think that driving should be thought in school to a degree, but bear in mind, that an old idiot can just set up a driving school and teach. there aren't any certs or particular licences needed.

can anybody tell me what is happening in relation to this i remember last year seamus brennan saying he was going to regulate driving instructors, introduce new metric speed limits and an infrastructure bill to speed up building of motorways blah blah blah but after the initial headlines go from the papers we hear nothing about them again (try doing an internet search for the latest developments on metric speed limits there's nothing since last year). seriously how long can it take to decide on speed limits it should be 30kmh residential 50kmh on main urban streets 130kmh on motorways and 100kmh as the national speed limit for country roads

this is the guy who said with a straight face we should look into the possibilty of high speed rail links between our cities under the current system the only way it seems to get anything built is to get planning permission from the pope that way you know the peasant ploughing his field for potatoes wont appeal his land being procured for infrastructure development. unless we introduce a infrastructure for the good of our society not even the usa would be able to afford the building of a high speed rail link between dublin and cork

sorry got on a bit of a rant