Should Ireland seek to increase its population considerably through immigration?

dathi1

Australia and the US didn’t have the infrastructure their current populations demand in 1950. That didn’t stop them opening their doors to large levels of immigration. A substantial increase in the numbers living here wouldn’t happen over night. There’d be many decades to plan ahead and put the increased infrastructure requirements in place. That’s why if ever an aggressive population growth strategy was adopted it would have to be done with full understanding and not simply drifted into. Another thing to realise is that immigrants would pay their way. So as the population increased, so would tax revenues. Moreover, with their often greater work ethic and much needed skills immigrants could spawn even greater prosperity, further adding to the sums government could expend on things such as roads, airports etc. After all, Irish immigrants to the US got jobs and paid their taxes – why should arrivals here be any different.

perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here..

But Australia and the USA are large continental countries thousands of times larger geographically than Ireland. How can you compare them to a small island nation in NW Atlantic. Another question: Would the people of Iceland like to increase their population through immigration? I think there is another agenda behind the prosperity facade. Prosperity by any means necessary...even if it means social breakdown, disolvement of whats left of Irish culture and forced low wage competition. Get them to multiply and reap the profits. IBEC would love you.

Take the US, despite its ever-changing demographics resulting in a melting pot of cultural ingredients there has always been a definable idea of Americanism.

Is this the cultural ideal that we really want to end up with? No way jose!

Typedef

Originally posted by mike65
Not sure if agree completly with the proposistion as in apart it seems to be based on a pissing contest with England. The population of Ireland will need to be increased and as the birth-rate has been falling steadily over the medium term it seems
only sensible to use immigrants as a way of filling the economic gap. All those OAPs will need financing in 30 years time!

Completely agree.


Just think of it, Ireland can have "it's own era" of racist segragation. Hell, we can have a whole race if immigrants, to do all the really meneal work right?

Just go to some of the clubs around Dublin and you can see how Irish people will "gladly" accept having black people in the toilets, handing out lynx and paper towels to people, since that sort of image of black people suits Irish people quite well.
All those poor guys & girls are short of doing is saying "Thanks masta", when you leave your tip.

Or we could get the orientals to run the Laundry shops or do what the Arabs do, and get Indians to do the 'really' hard manual labour.

Hell we could take a leaf out of the English's book, and import ourselves some East European sex-slaves.
You know the sort, illegally smuggled into the country only to have their passports confiscated by their pimps, to be put to work as prostitues, under threat of being shopped to the Immigration services.

Again, since Irish people are extremely racist, such exploitation of foreigners coming to Ireland, is enivatible, as Irish people could only really accept what is seen as 'foreign scum', doing the jobs, nobody else wants to do.

I think immigration 'should' be great for Ireland, it 'should' be Ireland growing it's population and economy and using the ever increasing mass of internal economy to drive itself upwards. I suspect what it will end up being is a means for Irish people to have themselves a low paid foreign labour force, non-Irish (and therefore ok to exploit) prostitues and easy scapegoats, for when things go wrong with the economy.

Roll on the Irish slave trade.

Typedef

Originally posted by Turnip
Make serious social welfare cuts or else we'll just carry on subsidising the breeding of more and more rat people to rob us, attack us and destroy every attempt to make the city a more pleasant place to live in.

Hello caller.


You seem to be foaming at the mouth whilst posting.
Would you like to

a) Get a grip
b) Take your medication
c) Join the KKK.
d) All three

Meh

Originally posted by Typedef
Again, since Irish people are extremely racist...

Oh, the irony. "Those dirty Irish, they're all racists".

M. Ferguson

Hi John K,

Is it not ironic that in order to maintain our "cultural independence" and stem the effect of "foreign cultural influence" on "Irish" culture, you are proposing that we import foreigners in their droves?!

Wouldn't this bring about the same result, just by a different route?

I believe that the following from my last posts looks at this conundrum:

In many ways, this is an acceptance of reality: a compromise with the inevitable. I’m not a cultural absolutist – cultures evolve with time and embrace new influences. But in any age a nation should have some sense of its own identity. Some might say that increasing immigration as a means to preserve a cultural identity is a contradiction. However, I can’t agree and looking elsewhere soon shows such a claim to be entirely specious. Take the US, despite its ever-changing demographics resulting in a melting pot of cultural ingredients there has always been a definable idea of Americanism. Its culture has evolved with new arrivals but has always remained distinctively American. Irish immigrants brought their own individual input as did their Japanese counterparts. But neither group simply became Irish or Japanese people living in another land – no matter how much some would like to think! Instead, for all their differences to those already there they became very much American. Irish-Americans may maintain some cultural aspects of their heritage but they’re still very different from Australians of Irish descent or us of course!

Likewise, new arrivals will cause Irish culture to evolve and broaden. Irish identity will become loser – out with the freckles and ginger hair for everyone – and more fluid but it will still be there. It’s something that’s constantly moulding to new times anyway. Why someone might ask, is this change that absorption of other cultures would induce necessary to bolster the Irish self-image? Because, I’m convinced, maintaining such a small population will see that identity increasingly diminished in a more integrated world. On top of this, without the cultural output a larger population might enable, others will forever be able to impose long outdated cultural imprints on us. Just think, if the US had remained a backwater from the 19th century onwards. We’d still have images of a land full of cowboys and indians in mind! It’s a trade off between the eventual cultural irrelevance of a non entity or the dynamism and vitality of an admittedly more plural heterogeneous culture of a larger nation. But one that is still Irish all the same, forever providing a strong identity.

………………

Personally I see culture as a fluid thing. I don't worry about the supposedly deleterious effect that American/UK mass culture is having on Ireland. Throughout history, I think you will find that "cultured" elites have always decried the "base" culture of the masses - in Hamlet Shakespeare berated the fickle public for falling for the latest fads- at that time it was troupes of child actors. The same is true today: the whipping boy du jour is cultural metamorphosis via Hollywood. Is it any better or worse if it comes via Rosslare Harbour? Is it any better or worse if our culture is altered by Nigerians or East Europeans rather than by the US and the UK?

I’m not a cultural elitist by any measure. Neither do I abhor mass culture as I take pleasure from it myself! It’s my belief that our culture is forever evolving and adapting to new influences and changing times. Immigrants would simply add to a process that’s already underway and will occur anyway in any eventuality. We shouldn’t attempt to shore up some sort of cultural myth when faced with any number of influences, be they British shops, American films or immigrants. What I feel we should do is attempt to swell our population to reinforce a sense of our on identity that can exist in any age, no matter how transient. Again, in the case of the US the nation’s identity has been forever evolving to adapt to near constant change. Yet, in any decade the world has always possessed an idea of what it is to be American. Far from change destroying identity, if embraced in the right way it can embolden the Irish image. Accept a growing population bringing with it a larger nation and while Ireland’s culture will undergo already inevitable change it will gain influence not to mention impact. This greater size will give Ireland the size to hold its weight in a globalising world. On the other hand, protecting a tiny homogenous people will instead lead us down the cul de sac of irrelevance.

Since migration is just another agent/consequence of globalisation- I guess your post begs the question of the relevance of "Irishness" and "cultural independence" in a globalised world.

Yes, migration is another consequence of globalisation. To be very cynical, we might realise that in the future with travel costs falling further and knowledge of the west’s wealth penetrating ever more remote parts of the globe, millions more of the world’s poor will beat a path to our borders. Cultural absolutists may very well be powerless to halt the change to a plural society I’m advocating – short of shutting the country down. Just look for example at the millions of Mexicans that poured into the US throughout the 90s. So, we could conclude that as a diverse nation is almost inevitably going to emerge at some point in the future whilst disparities in global wealth remain, we might as well embrace it. If the Ireland of 2150 will contain a heterogeneous plural society no matter what then why expend energy - with doses of heightened paranoia on top - attempting to stave off the inevitable. However, it’s still my contention that we should embrace this change not because it may very well happen anyway. No, instead of defeatist acceptance, Ireland should see immigrants as a means to strengthening our hand in this world. Giving future generations the numerical size allowing them to ‘punch’ their weight – economically and culturally. Embrace change because it’s good per se and not just because it might simply be inevitable with globalisation! There’s no need to add to the ostriches fear of the later will tease out anyway.

Anyway.. proceed to rip me to shreds.

John, that really isn’t my intention. I was only hoping to initiate what has turned out to be an interesting discussion.

bizmark

Why is it so important ireland grow,s to 24 million people in less than 90 year,s ????????

Ireland is fine as it is ............5-10% "non-irish" people that work and live as equals ...........And i mean equal,s on both side,s no more free houseing etc you come here to work or not at all

Turnip
You need help or a way to go back in time 200 year,s or so

MadsL

Wonderful flights of macro-economic theory.

A little down to earth practical experience of this government's attitude to immigration.

My gf, looking for work after getting made redundant in the downturn was refused a 'permission to remain' and told to either get marrried or 'get a job'. When she accepted a high-level management position with a major company, she was told 'oh, we are no longer issuing work-permits' and her Garda immigration card was revoked, despite the fact that her work permit papers were being processed in the same office. It took the personal intervention of an employment lawyer to get the dept to process the paperwork. She is extremely well qualified (has a MBA in finance, former management consultant). The irony is is that she initially came to Ireland as a result of FAS recruiting in eastern europe for IT knowledge workers.

Last year, 633 entertainment workers were granted work permits, with lap dancers accounting for a significant percentage.

This government hasn't a clue about managing population change for economic growth. They seem to have no idea what skills are in shortage or where they should look to fill them. We are becoming spoiled about what jobs we will or won't do and look down on those who come to this country to do them.

More importantly non-EU nationals are treated like dirt by tying the work-permit to the job instead of the person. If the company downsizes and you lose your job, then the Govt attitude is 'feck off back where you came from'.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by MadsL
This government hasn't a clue about managing population change for economic growth.

This is probably the most valid reason against rapid population growth through immigration. Any such growth should is inherently prone to instability, between assimilation of immigrants into Irish Society as well as the balance between supply of new labour and the additional demand this population will create.

Unfortunately, few governments would have the skills necessary to manage such a transition. The Irish government definitely does not.

I would agree that Ireland is both under populated and could well do with a more multicultural influence, so as to dampen its rather provincial attitudes, but rushing such growth could well cause as much harm as good.

fisty

No.
Maybe if i could get a job then i might think about letting an immigrant have one.