Guardai Speed Trap farce's

MDR

Its all about dealing the with reality of the situation,

The German's thanks to huge investment of an extended period have both very good roads and very good driver training.

In Ireland our roads are improving, but give us the level of investment we are spending now over the next 30 years or so and we will have German quality road. Also we have huge numbers who have never sat a driving test and other who through the 'santa claus' scheme are never likely to, both groups are out on driving on our roads now. Therefore its is also going to take a long periods of investment in driver training and re-training through penalty points, to get our collective driving skills up to scratch. Therefore for these two reasons, in Ireland at least, speed is bad.

sovtek

Originally posted by MDR

In Ireland our roads are improving, but give us the level of investment we are spending now over the next 30 years or so and we will have German quality road.

That's assuming alot with the current government.

Also we have huge numbers who have never sat a driving test and other who through the 'santa claus' scheme are never likely to, both groups are out on driving on our roads now. Therefore its is also going to take a long periods of investment in driver training and re-training through penalty points, to get our collective driving skills up to scratch. Therefore for these two reasons, in Ireland at least, speed is bad.

I can see your point. Initially I could agree that speed limits that are enforced well would aid in making roads safer...initially.
I think you need to think carefully before putting too many cops on the road though. It will always lead to more invasive methods of policing.

MDR

That's assuming alot with the current government

Comparatively they have a better track record on building infrastructure than any of their predecessors, its the other quality of life stuff, like hospitals and education they are crap at.

I think you need to think carefully before putting too many cops on the road though. It will always lead to more invasive methods of policing.

Given the current miserable spend on the Garda, and no major increases on the horizon, I don't think its terribly likely that we are going to arrive at a situation anytime soon whereby we are over policed.

surfboy

Hi

Over the last 2 weeks I have seen a huge amount of people being stopped for speeding on the new part of the motorway that goes up to the Airport. I regularly see 2 guys on bikes stopping speeders. Mind you it's the first time in months I've seen any, and I regualrly use that road. They should spend less time on the motorways and more time on the bad spots.... but there again, it's all about getting as much cash into the coffers.

A friend of a friend of mine (Who shall remain Nameless :-) ) whom recently became a guard, actually it's problaby a year now... :-0, told me he was told to stop people going 1 mile over the limit, i.e. 31 in a 30 zome. He had to do it, and people that he stopped were going crazy!

BigEejit

I heard recently that the older generation of guards are leaving in their droves and that the guards are as much as 20% below what their projected force strength was calculated to be 2 years ago ....

In fact i heard that in one month this year more guards retired than are trained in templemore in one year (i.e. more than 600 or so)

All heard in the bar but, is there a grain of truth in it?

If it is the case then that is why the guards do not have a high visibility, there are just not enough of them .... of course there is also a element of "if youre in the station drinking cups of tea, you wont get into any trouble" .. I come from an area that has a garda training station ... at times there are as many as 35 - 40 garda in it (in a town of approx 1500 inhabitants) ... do you see any pulling for speed? very rarely .. but you NEVER see them out on the beat

sovtek

Originally posted by MDR

Given the current miserable spend on the Garda, and no major increases on the horizon, I don't think its terribly likely that we are going to arrive at a situation anytime soon whereby we are over policed.

Might it be better managing of what they do have that might improve Garda (apologies if I'm not using proper tense/spelling here) visibility?

mike65

Originally posted by MDR
The German's thanks to huge investment of an extended period have both very good roads and very good driver training.

The Nazis were'nt all bad....

Mike.

MDR

Might it be better managing of what they do have that might improve Garda (apologies if I'm not using proper tense/spelling here) visibility?

Eh well that a very debateable point true enough, but you will always end up coming back to the not enough money and not enough Garda problem.

I heard recently that the older generation of guards are leaving in their droves and that the guards are as much as 20% below what their projected force strength was calculated to be 2 years ago ....

Lots of the older generation are being turfed out because they aren't physically fit enough for the job. They have a very good pension and the difference between the wages and pension, isn't huge so there is no incentive to hang on really. Lots of them are also leaving because of dis-illusionment with the criminal justice system and the revolving door it has become.

I come from an area that has a garda training station ... at times there are as many as 35 - 40 garda in it (in a town of approx 1500 inhabitants) ... do you see any pulling for speed?

There are other issues with this, cadets can't go out on their own, 35 garda only amounts to 12 garda a shift, if half of them are cadets thats 6 etc etc. You also have the funny issue that lots of Garda don't have a drivers license, let alone the advance driving course the garda do, therefore can't chase driving offenses. There is also server resource restraints on Garda vechicles, there aren't nearily enough, bikes or cars to go around etc etc etc etc.

Victor

Originally posted by MDR
The German's thanks to huge investment of an extended period have both very good roads and very good driver training.

Having slave labour to build the first 3,000km helped.

Originally posted by sovtek
I think you need to think carefully before putting too many cops on the road though. It will always lead to more invasive methods of policing.

I think when you have 400+ road deaths, 80+ homocides + vast numbers of injuries we could do with some more policing.

sovtek

Originally posted by Victor
I think when you have 400+ road deaths, 80+ homocides + vast numbers of injuries we could do with some more policing.

Maybe but policing is merely one aspect of the problem with road deaths. You need training courses to give drivers better skills and a better road infrastructure. As well I think that you need a better public transport infrastructure.

Villain

sorry I've haven't posted here in a while, considering I started the thread you'd imagine i'd have more of an input.

Anyway ...

I don't think training courses or the like will help resolve this problem, because im my experience it's not the lack of driving skills that gets people killed it's people abusing those skills.

I started this thread to debate police presence or lack of, the problems is police aren't working in logical educated way, if we had a real traffic core that were interested in saving lives rather than making money so they can get paid way over the top for overtime.

Police need to be visible in the danger areas at the danger times, thats the reality of it.

sovtek

Originally posted by irish1

I don't think training courses or the like will help resolve this problem, because im my experience it's not the lack of driving skills that gets people killed it's people abusing those skills.

Defensive driving IS a skill.

I started this thread to debate police presence or lack of, the problems is police aren't working in logical educated way, if we had a real traffic core that were interested in saving lives rather than making money so they can get paid way over the top for overtime.

And I can tell you that I have lived most of my life in a country (and State) that have a highly developed traffic patrol system, and it always leads to "police [not]... working in logical educated way," to save lives but to increase revenue and invade privacy.
While initially it might slow people down and save lives, the police will loose that focus and begin to do what I described above.

Police need to be visible in the danger areas at the danger times, thats the reality of it.

I'm talking from a perspective of practical experience (what some might call "reality"), not just a hypothesis.

Villain

Originally posted by sovtek
Defensive driving IS a skill.

That can't be thought to people who have no regard for other peoples safety.

I'm talking from a perspective of practical experience (what some might call "reality"), not just a hypothesis. [/B]

Well your talking from a perspective that you say has failed what we need is a new perspective with the police power to enforce it and with an ombudsman ensuring the smooth running of it

Greenbean

Quick note. Does it matter where the gardai are doing speed checks, on a personal level? If you're going over the limit you're going over the limit. Yep, its probably safer to go over the limit on big wide stretched of road etc, but its still over the limit. I definitely agree the gardai could be smarter and enforce speed limits on the more dangerous areas - its just I'm concerned with the notion that going over the limit should be seen as aceptable.

Yes, the limits seem stupid in some cases (wide open straight roads) but in others they are very apt (residential areas, even if wide and open), but a line was drawn somewhere so we'd have one, and the line chosen wasn't decided arbitrarily. The whole thing is to try save lives at the end of the day. The more speed cameras the better, driving over the speed limit isn't a human right imo. Its a bit like drunken driving "ah sure everyone does it and I won't get caught".

Villain

Originally posted by Greenbean
Its a bit like drunken driving "ah sure everyone does it and I won't get caught".

Yes but drink driving on any road has a far greater chance of killing someone.

Where as doing 70 or 60 on a main dual carriage way is a lot lest likely to kill someone compared to someone doing 60 or 70 ona back country road

sovtek

Originally posted by irish1
That can't be thought to people who have no regard for other peoples safety.

If a person is somehow mentally incapable of being taught to regard others safety (which is the key element of defensive driving) then they shouldn't be granted a license.

Well your talking from a perspective that you say has failed what we need is a new perspective with the police power to enforce it and with an ombudsman ensuring the smooth running of it

What you need to do is look at countries that have had success in lowering driver fatalities and see what aspects can be used to do the same here.
That aspect failed, on the other hand we have a good system that teaches defensive driving starting at 15 yo.
I also have a German wife (and visited/driven there on several occasions) so I also come from a perspective of definite success.
Dismissing such perspectives out-of-hand is a short path down a slippery slope.

sixtysix

outside heuston train station heading towards town the speed limit is thirty mph and there are frequent speed checks there
heading out of town on the quays near guinness also frequent speed checks again the limit is 30mph
it is practically impossible to drive at thirty miles per hour so it is a very lucrative business to put speed checks at these two points.
i am not aware that either spot is an accident black spot.

sceptre

Originally posted by sixtysix
it is practically impossible to drive at thirty miles per hour

I doubt I'm a better driver than you, yet I'm well capable of driving "at thirty miles per hour"

I don't have a magic car to my knowledge.

sixtysix

remember that arrogant statement when they catch you

sceptre and crown must tumble down and in the dust be equal made

bonkey

Originally posted by sixtysix
it is practically impossible to drive at thirty miles per hour so it is a very lucrative business to put speed checks at these two points.

So...let me get this straight. You have a problem obeying speed laws. This - as is becoming clear from the current discussion - is one of the basic underlying problems with safety on Irish roads.

So, given that....what is your reaction to any vague criticism about your assertion that its "impossible" to do 30????

sceptre and crown must tumble down and in the dust be equal made

Ahh. I see. The way forward is to maintain that everyone is as incapable of following the speed limit as you admit to be. Ergo, it is clearly the limit, and not the driver who is wrong here, and its okay to speed.

What next? Its impossible to do under 90 on motorway at 2am? Its impossible to go to the pub and stay below the limit?

None of these things are impossible. None of them are even difficult. Quite personally, the belief that the rules of the road are in any way "tough" to follow is one of the core underlying problems.

If you think those spots in Dublin were "impossible", you should have tried the Kilrush road out of Ennis. For about 20 years, the 30 limit extended for about 1 mile outside the last urban area, along a lovely straight, wide road. The reason - because the area had been rezoned to residential, and even though there were no houses at the time, the speed limit was mandatory.

I've seen cars doing 100 on it. I did 30. You tell me who is more likely to cause an accident, and how impossible it is to keep the limit when some drivers can manage it no problem.

Personally, I think you are confusing the word "impossible" with "frustrating" - you find it frustrating to keep the limit in these areas....and so you dont bother. There is no other valid explanation, other than saying that you have the inability to control your car's speed in general....which would indicate that you shouldn't have a license at all, so I'm assuming that its not that.

jc

TomF

When police enforce traffic rules, there is often an unforeseen benefit. It seems that many criminals don't pay attention to any laws at all, and therefore tend to speed on the roads and streets, run traffic lights, and disregard parking regulations. When the police nab them for these infractions they find that they have cuffed a bank robber or a drug dealer.

sceptre

Originally posted by sixtysix
remember that arrogant statement when they catch you

sceptre and crown must tumble down and in the dust be equal made

Completely missing the point. You said it was impossible to do it. I said it wasn't. It isn't arrogant, it's a statement of fact. I won't be moaning that they should be monitoring a different road if I do get stopped at any point. If the limit is 30 and I'm doing over that and I get stopped/caught/fined it's a clear case of "fair cop, er, cop."

Like Greanbean said above:

Quick note. Does it matter where the gardai are doing speed checks, on a personal level? If you're going over the limit you're going over the limit. Yep, its probably safer to go over the limit on big wide stretched of road etc, but its still over the limit. I definitely agree the gardai could be smarter and enforce speed limits on the more dangerous areas - its just I'm concerned with the notion that going over the limit should be seen as aceptable

surfboy

Originally posted by bonkey

If you think those spots in Dublin were "impossible", you should have tried the Kilrush road out of Ennis. For about 20 years, the 30 limit extended for about 1 mile outside the last urban area, along a lovely straight, wide road. The reason - because the area had been rezoned to residential, and even though there were no houses at the time, the speed limit was mandatory.

I've seen cars doing 100 on it. I did 30. You tell me who is more likely to cause an accident, and how impossible it is to keep the limit when some drivers can manage it no problem.
jc

Remember one thing! If there's a speed limit (which for the Kilrush road as you mentioned is 30 although there's no houses..) is a totally unrealistic speed and should be more (Cos there's no houses on it, so it's not residential yet), people will try and overtake the person(s) that's doing their 25 - 30 mph, on that part of the road. That can also cause accidents!!! How many times have you seen some guy going lets say 30 in a 40 zone, and each car trying to overtake!!

I suppose it boils down in incorrect speed limits in certain areas. Some places were it's 30 should at least be 40 etc.... There's loads of places in ireland like this with inappropriate speed limits.

I mentioned earlier about a guard I know who "HAD" to stop people for doing 1 mile over the limit, I know where he did it, and it's a 30 that should be at least 40 if not 50! He was gutted he had to stop anybody there, as he himself would have driven at at least 40 on this streach.... (His super was looking over his sholder while he stopped people)... so he had no choice, and he thought it was wrong.

Villain

I think the Irish problem is kinda unique in thatI don't think any other country has such bad roads or such a bad licence system.

I think 30mph speed limits are usually acceptable but in some cases you have a stream of traffic travelling on a very good road well above that speed and if you had some guy driving at 30 he would most likely cause an accident.

MDR

I think the Irish problem is kinda unique

I don't think it is, people pleddling that idea have kept us in the dark ages for quite a while ... in many areas not only road safety.

Villain

Originally posted by MDR
I don't think it is, people pleddling that idea have kept us in the dark ages for quite a while ... in many areas not only road safety.

Well if you look at the roads where the majority of deaths occur I'd suspect (could be wrong) that they are second class roads, i.e. the roads that were formed from cattle tracks 100's of years ago and that have more bends than straights.

MDR

Are the principles of encouraging road safety any different in Ireland than other countries with a better track record than our, I think not. The state of our roads although it is important, it is not paramount, it all comes back to changing the ancient Irish 'nudge and wink' attitude of 'good man, if you can get away with it'. Here is where our problem lies, here is where our problem has always lay.

I have no doubt improving the state of our road will help, but that doesn't make us a special case, in the majority of what causes our road deaths we are no different than any other county, speed and recklessness, challenging the culture of the blind eye is how we will solve this, and in that we are no different to anyone else.

DaithiSurfer

Thats bollox about having to pass speed camera signs before they give you a ticket.
It is illegal to speed and you do not require a camera sign to tell you this.
If you rob a bank and there is an armed response unti waiting inside do you get away with it because they didnt put up a sign saying they were there.

The guards can pull you in a town for speeding as i got pulled around the corner from my house for doing 38 the other day.

MDR

The guards can pull you in a town for speeding as i got pulled around the corner from my house for doing 38 the other day.

Its not bollox, its called 'Entrapment', the Garda weren't waiting for you to speed on this occasion, therefore its ok to catch you, if they had have been sitting with a speed camera and you hadn't passed a sign, you could have successfully argued in court that you wouldn't have been speeding if you knew they where sitting there with the camera.

Its a very fine legal point, and i don't understand it all admittedily, but it is valid.

MDR

I will see if a I can't get a 'friend' to explain it again to me.