Guardai Speed Trap farce's

Villain · 14-08-2003 12:25pm

Originally posted by MDR
in the majority of what causes our road deaths we are no different than any other county, speed and recklessness, challenging the culture of the blind eye is how we will solve this, and in that we are no different to anyone else.

Well I think if I drive at 60mph on a back round I'm driving dangerously but I'm not breaking any speed limits and in some peoples minds its not driving recklessly either.

So the problem lies with the roads, I agree that peoples attitudes are not good, but don't you think proper inforced policing on dangerous roads strecthes could help change those attitudes?

MDR · 14-08-2003 12:36pm

Is the road or the people the problem ?

Ok the road is a very big part of the problem, but the people is really the heart of the problem. All I am saying is that we are no different to anyone else, what you advocate would help change peoples attidutes, I myself advocated something very similar earily on is this thread, it is to be commended.

All I was pointing out is that the state of our road and licensing doesn't really make us unique, the principles of improving our road safety are the same here as anywhere.

skipn_easy · 14-08-2003 12:47pm

Originally posted by irish1
Well I think if I drive at 60mph on a back round I'm driving dangerously but I'm not breaking any speed limits and in some peoples minds its not driving recklessly either.

If you have a driving licence then it is up to you to decide what speed to drive at (under the legal limit obviously). A lot of back roads with 60mph speed limits are unsafe to drive at that speed, and just because there is no lower speed limit doesn't mean you have to drive at 60. Similarly if it was raining or foggy you wouldn't drive at 60mph because it isn't safe. A lot of those roads need to be investigated and perhaps speed-zoned but ultimately its your responsibility to drive at a speed where you feel you are in control (legally or not).

Villain · 14-08-2003 12:50pm

Originally posted by MDR

All I was pointing out is that the state of our road and licensing doesn't really make us unique, the principles of improving our road safety are the same here as anywhere.

I suppose but I think the problem might be harder to crack here because there are so many different issue i.e. Roads, Licence's, attitude and Lack of policing on roads in a constructive way.

Ps. I could never disagree with any man that quotes jim larkin in his sig:D

bonkey · 14-08-2003 1:00pm

Originally posted by surfboy
I suppose it boils down in incorrect speed limits in certain areas.

I don't believe it does. It boils down to drivers deciding the speed limit is incorrect, and taking it upon themselves to choose a different limit.

If I'm driving on one of these "too slow a limit" (TSAL) roads, and I'm stuck to the limit, and someone else decides to bomb past me....who is at fault?

Is it me, for driving too slowly? Is it the county council for setting the limit too low? Or is it the moron who decided that overtaking me at (say) 45-50 in a clearly posted 30-xone was OK, because it was clearly a TSAL? Personally, I blame the guy overtaking me. He has decided the limit is not worth following. He is the problem, not the limit.

I know what you're saying....that there are places with what is clearly a poor choice of limit in place. I just don't accept that this is any justification whatsoever for anyone to break the limit, nor do I accept that it is the limit (or those who impost it) which is at fault.

Originally posted by MDR
its called 'Entrapment'

No, it isn't. At least - its definitely not entrapment....which is where the police would encourage or invite you to break the law, and then punish you for having taken them up on their offer and thus broken the law.

I could be wrong, but I think that there's a degree of misinformation about this one. There were massive complaints some years ago that the police should be obliged to post notification about speed-traps. The logic used was exactly the one you're putting forward, but I don't believe it was ever a court-issued ruling....just a complaint that the public were issuing.

Consider...the police never had to put up signage for their "mobile" speed-traps before, so why should they be obliged to notify you of a permanent one???

DaithiSurfer · 14-08-2003 1:29pm

Its complete bollox.
They were waiting for me with a camera.
I mean jesus, you say its a very fine legal point, show me where it says that the guards can't enforce the law on speeding.

You say they werent waiting for me yet they were. You make an assumption like that which you could not possibly know to be true or false so i definitely think your talking through your arse about the entrapment thing.

DaithiSurfer · 14-08-2003 1:39pm

Back to the main point of this thread.
I agree with the point that the police should enforce the law where it will make a difference in injuries and lives.
It won't help as much on having speed traps on a motorway as it would a black spot.
However they do put traps in good places too (though not enough).
Take my example. The trap was in a 30 zone coming up to a housing estate.
While there were no other cars around there could indeed have been children playing there.
I think they were right in this case and the lecture i got did make me realize what a prat i had been.
I probably wouldn't die in my car driving that fast but someone child could have.
The least i can do is have a bit of respect for the lives of the people i might kill and slow down. After all it only makes me arrive home about 5 seconds later than normal.

sixtysix · 14-08-2003 2:48pm

one of the reasons why it is difficult, frustrating or impossible to travel at 30mph is becauses you will always be the slowest car on the road and some gob****e will always be sitting on your arse trying to overtake you at risk to your life and limb. my objectings to the speed traps at the points i mentioned are to with the fact that they are not accident blackspots but they are places where breaking the speed limit will occur.
with the large number of fatalities on irish roads and limited police resourses these are hardly the most logical places to put speed checks.
i believe that this type of police behaviour merely encourages cynicism as regards their real intentions.

sovtek · 14-08-2003 8:16pm

Originally posted by TomF
When the police nab them for these infractions they find that they have cuffed a bank robber or a drug dealer.

That shouldn't be a job for a traffic cop.
Proper investigation technics used by Garda that are trained for that speciific purpose are going to catch more people while leaving innocents be. Traffic cops thinking that everyone (especially young people, immigrants and minorities...or some girl they might want to chat up)is a potential bank robber or drug dealer will lead to many fruitless searches, seizures of money and improper arrest.
It already happens enough for people standing at bus stops anyway.

surfboy · 15-08-2003 11:57am

One other point! As I mentioned earlier I have seem a few cars being stopped over the last while on the new Airport Motorway. Strange thing is they all seemed to have looked throughout the cars, i.e. the boot of all the cars were open? Is it normal for guards to check the car, boot, inside etc.. for traffic violations?

Victor · 15-08-2003 9:29pm

Originally posted by sixtysix
outside heuston train station heading towards town the speed limit is thirty mph and there are frequent speed checks there

You mean where there is a double bend in the road?

Originally posted by sixtysix
it is practically impossible to drive at thirty miles per hour so it is a very lucrative business to put speed checks at these two points.

Cost of running An Garda Síochána €900m. Income from speeding fines €10+. Lucrative? Also given Dublins 'horrendous' traffic, are you sure many people can manage 30?

Originally posted by sixtysix
i am not aware that either spot is an accident black spot.

"Either"? Either Heuston or where? And you don't think a blind double bend, with 3 sets of traffic lights, a tram crossing and a major train station doesn't have potential as a black spot?

Originally posted by sixtysix
one of the reasons why it is difficult, frustrating or impossible to travel at 30mph is becauses you will always be the slowest car on the road and some gob****e will always be sitting on your arse trying to overtake you at risk to your life and limb.

How does it risk you?

Originally posted by MDR
Its not bollox, its called 'Entrapment', the Garda weren't waiting for you to speed on this occasion, therefore its ok to catch you, if they had have been sitting with a speed camera and you hadn't passed a sign, you could have successfully argued in court that you wouldn't have been speeding if you knew they where sitting there with the camera.

Does than mean I can rob the bank if I make sure the cops are there first? Please answer quickly, I need as much money as possible and want to get in ahead of the posse (but not ahead of the Garda posse that is) :rolleyes:

sixtysix · 15-08-2003 10:52pm

either heuston station is an accident black spot ir it is not. there are statistics available for all these areas. i don't recall reading about many accidents there.
the point is that scarce garda resources are being used there not to prevent death's but to gather revenue or to take the more benign view they are there to teach us all a lesson.
i would prefer to see garda resources directed towards reducing the death toll on our roads.

Victor · 15-08-2003 10:59pm

Originally posted by sixtysix
either heuston station is an accident black spot ir it is not. there are statistics available for all these areas.

So go find out befor emaking your assertions. Maybe, just maybe, despite the constricted nature of the junctiona nd the vast amount of traffic that uses it, the regular presence of the Garda prevents it from being a black spot?

MDR · 20-08-2003 2:39pm

No, it isn't. At least - its definitely not entrapment....which is where the police would encourage or invite you to break the law, and then punish you for having taken them up on their offer and thus broken the law.

Just to clarify (not that it needs much clarification), yes indeed as 'DaithiSurfer' so aptly put, I was indeed talking complete bollox. I collared the person in question who fed me the questionable information and I got the usual 'I never told you that' ... sure you did, you tit

, anyway never let it be said that I don't admit my mistakes ...

Beëlzebooze · 20-08-2003 3:04pm

I still find it hard to believe that in this country it is possible to get into a car, and drive around WITHOUT ANYONE SHOWING YOU HOW TO FIRST!

this is ludicrous and primitive!

The politicians say it is drink that kills, they say that it is speed that kills, the public blames the roads.

How the f*ck can you expect to lower the ammount of deaths on the roads, if you are not edugcating people how to behave? Teach them how it is done! Teach them to anticipate what others are going to do, what the f*cking roadside signs mean!!!!

If it was up to me, ALL provisional licenses would be revoked today. anyone wishing to drive, would have to have driving lessons, and until such times that tey had a FULL license, they would not be allowed to drive a car without a qualified instructor, just like it is done in the most of the rest of the EU.

MDR · 20-08-2003 3:14pm

good man,

Thanks for that lovely rant and telling us something we are all very aware of. Unfortunately sorting out the provisional drivers situation isn't simple as you would like to think,

First off there is alot of them (I don't have the exact figure, but I did hear 400,000 bandied around at one point, this seemed a little high though). So you couldn't make a full license obligatory over night without the country coming to a standstill.

Secondily the test centre's are still being run by the civil service and are inefficent to say the least, they therefore are processing enough tests to get throught the aforementioned people in a realistic amount of time.

Schemes that are gradually changing the situation like 'Hiberian Ignition', the pre-provision 'Theory Test', the insurance discounts for proof of 25 lessons, 'Penalty Points', etc. This sort of thing will gradually wear down the situation over a number of years ... I would welcome more of this sort of thing ... hopefully we are moving towards a conclusion to this very Irish of problems.

Victor · 20-08-2003 3:16pm

Originally posted by MDR
Just to clarify (not that it needs much clarification), yes indeed as 'DaithiSurfer' so aptly put, I was indeed talking complete bollox. I collared the person in question who fed me the questionable information and I got the usual 'I never told you that' ... sure you did, you tit , anyway never let it be said that I don't admit my mistakes ...

There are certain "crimes" where it isn't enough for a Garda to institute a prosecution on his own accord - that there must be complaint from the public, e.g. many domestic disputes, nuisance and no doubt others. The objective being to keep the police out of peoples private lives. I doubt speeding is one of these - if nothing else the Garda could give in evidence that he was on speeding checking duty, saw what he suspected was a speeder (i.e. raise reasonable suspicion), used his radar / laser, confirmed the offence and then prosecuted.

Victor · 20-08-2003 3:34pm

Originally posted by MDR
First off there is alot of them (I don't have the exact figure, but I did hear 400,000 bandied around at one point, this seemed a little high though).

Related article:

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/1230854?view=Eircomnet

Originally posted by MDR
Nearly 17% of drivers on provisional licences
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 20th August, 2003

Almost 17 per cent of Irish motorists are driving on a provisional licence, according to new figures released today.

The Department of the Environment's Bulletin of Vehicle and Driver Statistics 2002 reveals that there were 2.1 million driving licences current at the end of last year. Some 352,500 of these were provisional licences.

Anomalies in the law relating to provisional licences have been criticised by road safety campaigners, who claim that many of those who have not passed a test or achieved a minimum driving standard should be taken off the road.

Irish motorists on a first provisional licence must be accompanied by a fully licensed driver. This is not a requirement for those on a second provisional licence, but again becomes mandatory for those on a third provisional licence.

In practice, however, many motorists flout the rule and are driving without the supervision of a licensed driver or even without 'L' plates.

The Department of Transport is currently drafting legislation which is expected to require learner drivers to take a set number of hours training with a professional instructor.

The administration of driving tests will also be handed over to an independent body.

Today's figures also show that an overall pass rate of 54 per cent was achieved in the 149,000 driving tests conducted in Ireland last year. In the case of repeat tests, the pass rate increased to 57 per cent.

Other key statistics in the report reveal that 536,000 car tests were carried out by the National Car Testing Service (NCTS) in 2002, with a pass rate of 94 per cent. Some 41 per cent of vehicles tested passed after defects discovered on the original test were rectified.

A total of 139,700 tests were carried out on heavy goods vehicles, trailers, buses and ambulances, with an overall pass rate of 83 per cent. Of those vehicles that passed, 31 per cent did so after defects had been corrected.

Of the 40,600 light goods vehicles tested, 79 per cent passed. In this category, a quarter of these required repair after defects were discovered on the first NCT test.

Beëlzebooze · 20-08-2003 3:38pm

MDR,

as you prolly made out from the post this provisional license business is something thay really gets my goat. Didn't mean to go ott. I did get my point across though :-)

MDR · 20-08-2003 3:50pm

as a person who had his full license before he ever drove unsupervised ... as did most of my friends. It does get my goat too, but there are certain realities you can't ignore.

echomadman · 20-08-2003 5:49pm

but a line was drawn somewhere so we'd have one, and the line chosen wasn't decided arbitrarily.

sorry, such a long thread i cant remeber who posted that originally

The speed limits that apply today were decided based on older cars and tyre/braking systems, car safety has really progressed in the past decade or so, right down to budget cars, not just on expensive marques.
I'd be in favour of an increase in the current speed limits (road conditions permitting, ie 80 on motorways, 70 on dual carriageways) in exchange for much more rigid policing and punisment of offenders

Victor · 20-08-2003 6:07pm

Originally posted by echomadman
The speed limits that apply today were decided based on older cars and tyre/braking systems, car safety has really progressed in the past decade or so, right down to budget cars, not just on expensive marques.

However pedestrians have not yeat sprouted airbags, apparently were aren't that far on with evolution after all.

And for those that gripe about the Garda only targeting "fast roads" take a look at this (extract included in attachment). I know it excludes "on the spot" fines, but it does prove / disprove a point.

Garda Síochána Annual Report 2001
Crime Statistics Section - Page 116
http://www.garda.ie/angarda/statistics/report2001/stats02.pdf

echomadman · 20-08-2003 6:32pm

However pedestrians have not yeat sprouted airbags

pedestrians shouldnt be on motorways

Victor · 20-08-2003 6:41pm

Originally posted by echomadman
pedestrians shouldnt be on motorways

Originally posted by echomadman
I'd be in favour of an increase in the current speed limits .... 70 on dual carriageways

:P

mike65 · 20-08-2003 7:36pm

Slightly OT,

I just looked through that pdf file Victor linked to and one figure that leapt out at me was for total number of drivers breath tested a mighty 11, 675 for the year 2001.

Meanwhile in Queensland....

Police performed a staggering 61,935 breath tests with 625 people arrested for drink/drug driving (during Operation Spring Break)

That from www.police.qld.gov.au/pr/news/media/2002/october/specials/break_11.shtml

Mike.

Victor · 20-08-2003 7:48pm

I suppose it's the difference with the Garda being required to show reasonable suspicion first. Time for a change.

vasch_ro · 22-08-2003 1:27pm

there's no such thing as random breath testing in Ireland
the police have to have formed a legal opinion that you are incapable of driving your car properly before they can test you
I think it would be intersting to compare budgets of the the two forces and manpower as well
the simple fact of the matter is that it is illegal to drink and drive
if people obeyed the law there would be no problem and no need for breath tests , its the people who are at fault they are the root cause

Victor · 22-08-2003 3:09pm

Originally posted by vasch_ro
I think it would be intersting to compare budgets of the the two forces and manpower as well

Both forces are similar in size (see below), in a population of 4m (Queensland covers a much larger area 20+ times the size of Ireland).

[font=courier]Ireland 			Queeensland
Garda&#237; (all ranks) 	 11,950 	Officers	 8,053 
Traffic wardens 	     71 	-		     -   
Admin 			    958 	"Staff"		 2,399 
Industrial 	  	    902 	General		   743 
Students 		    596 	Recruits 	   315 
Total 			 14,477 	Total	 	11,510 [/font]

Queensland has a budget of A$883m (+€550m) is 62% (compared to 79% of the numbers )that of the Garda's €900m, but the Queensland Police Service may not carry out some high level policing (Australia has a federal police).

In a recent survey, the Garda could only account for 10,419 of it's +11,950 members.

Figures are for 2001-2002.

Annual reports:
http://www.garda.ie/angarda/statistics/report2001/annrep1.pdf
http://www.police.qld.gov.au/pr/services/pdf/reports/01_02/02_qps.pdf

MDR · 22-08-2003 3:23pm

Australia has a federal police

In the interests of a fair comparison. What sort of numbers of these operate in the queensland area ?

In a recent survey, the Garda could only account for 10,419 of it's +11,950 members.

I presume these would be people on 'career breaks' and 'sick leave' ... the joys of the civil service. Are these figure available for australia (not they reallly matter much I suppose).

Queensland has a budget of A$883m (+€550m) half that of the Garda €900m,

I presume the police in Queensland get paid alot less than the Gardai as the cost of living is much lower. They all seem to have more (twice as many) dedicated adminisrators which is alot cheaper than having officers do paperwork ....

Victor · 22-08-2003 3:43pm

Originally posted by MDR
In the interests of a fair comparison. What sort of numbers of these operate in the queensland area ?

Not sure. I don't think it makes a fundamental difference to the comparison. The AFP is relatively small at 3,051 staff in the ACT and throughout the rest of Australia.

Originally posted by MDR
I presume these would be people on 'career breaks' and 'sick leave' ... the joys of the civil service. Are these figure available for australia (not they reallly matter much I suppose).

Why would the Garda not include these? The figures provided were:

[font=courier]
 4,528 	 uniform operational duties 
 1,200 	 detectives  
   449 	 plain clothes work 
   671 	 administrative duties 
 2,395 	 resting 
   886 	 annual leave  
   290 	 training courses 
10,419 	[/font]

Originally posted by MDR
I presume the police in Queensland get paid alot less than the Gardai as the cost of living is much lower. They all seem to have more (twice as many) dedicated adminisrators which is alot cheaper than having officers do paperwork ....

The main difference appeared to be in the generous allowances provided to Gardaí. The Garda appears to be dragging it's heals on civilianisation of administrative duties.

Guardai Speed Trap farce's

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