Guardai Speed Trap farce's

MDR

Why would the Garda not include these? The figures provided were:

Don't know I doubt the garda have just lost a thousand people ... the resting figure seems to account fo the people 'on leave', I wonder where the others are, you probabily find as in the rest of the civil service they are in a variety of places, from peacekeeping etc anyway ...

Not sure. I don't think it makes a fundamental difference to the comparison. The AFP is relatively small at 3,051 staff in the ACT and throughout the rest of Australia.

Well if it adds another 700 officers to the queensland are, that probabily worth throwing in ... how and ever.

The main difference appeared to be in the generous allowances provided to Gardaí

Are we talking about the boot allowence etc .... ?
its funny that the 2002 report isn't up yet ....

the_syco

I'd be in favour of an increase in the current speed limits (road conditions permitting, ie 80 on motorways, 70 on dual carriageways) in exchange for much more rigid policing and punisment of offenders [/B]

But one thing stays the same

CHICKEN WIRE

Car going at 80 on a motorway, skids across the grass, thru the chickenwire, and smashes into another car traveling at 80. No survivors possible. True, I'd like the limit increased beyond 40, but its there 'cos of the chickenwire. If there was steel girders where the chicken wire is, you'd be allowed to go faster, as the bends wouldn't be as dangerous to the on-coming cars.

Victor

Originally posted by MDR
Don't know I doubt the garda have just lost a thousand people ... the resting figure seems to account fo the people 'on leave', I wonder where the others are, you probabily find as in the rest of the civil service they are in a variety of places, from peacekeeping etc anyway ...

Surely peacekeeping should go under "uniform operational duties". I imagine everyone on holidays / leave of absense is under "annual leave".

Originally posted by MDR
Well if it adds another 700 officers to the queensland are, that probabily worth throwing in ... how and ever.

I doubt they would be doing traffic stops. The AFP has a budget of about A$320m (€200m) and only appear to involve themselves with Canberra and serious and external crime. In their annual report they had only investigated one burglary.

Originally posted by MDR
its funny that the 2002 report isn't up yet ....

No, I think the word is "typical", very little of the site is kept current.

Originally posted by MDR
Are we talking about the boot allowence etc .... ?

No, rent (€2,500/year) and uniforms mostly.

[font=courier new]
Number	Function		Total		Each
11,950	Garda(all ranks)	€423,460,000	€35,436
    71	Traffic w.		  €1,374,000	€19,352
   958	Admin			 €24,704,000	€25,787
   902	Industrial		  €5,984,000	 €6,634
   596	Students		  €7,363,000	€12,354
14,477	Allowances		€147,311,000	€10,176
14,477	Overtime		 €51,516,000	 €3,558
14,477	PRSI			 €25,200,000	 €1,741
14,477	Total			€686,912,000	€47,449

[/font]

MDR

Surely peacekeeping should go under "uniform operational duties". I imagine everyone on holidays / leave of absense is under "annual leave".

Anyway ... I very much doubt they have lost a thousand people.
Their quite up to date website ... did you have a look around the site before making assertations, offers the following stats on Garda personnel ... Stats ... why oh why are the female stats listed seperately.

Total Garda : 11,747
Admin staff : 1,747

as off 2003 ...

where did you get these stats from, I can't find them in the report link you provided.

4,528 uniform operational duties
1,200 detectives
449 plain clothes work
671 administrative duties
2,395 resting
886 annual leave
290 training courses
10,419

No, rent (€2,500/year) and uniforms mostly.

I suppose it helps make up for the crappy pay, €34,519 after 18 years of service .... :rolleyes: , if I had of followed in my fathers footsteps I would be on €24,264 now ... no wait I would be just out of Templemore so I would be on ... €19,209 ... 'tis great money to be sure .

Victor

Originally posted by MDR
Anyway ... I very much doubt they have lost a thousand people.

I'm sure. The figures were released by the commissioner and publish in the media about 3 or 4 months ago after someone said there was only 400 gardaí on duty at any one time.

Originally posted by MDR
Their quite up to date website ... did you have a look around the site before making assertations, offers the following stats on Garda personnel ...

I use the site about once a week to access RTA statistics. Any time I have tried searching for something many of the links thrown up are 4 and 5 years old. Try searching for "murder statistics" and you will find murder inquiries, RTA statistics and GASU statistics and buried somewhere about page 3 “crime statistics”. This would largely appear to be because of the civil service penchant to include things in *.pdf format to render them (a) less searchable (b) less reprintable.

Originally posted by MDR
Stats ... why oh why are the female stats listed seperately.

To vaguely reassure us it is gradually, but slowly, moving away from the old boys club?

Originally posted by MDR
Total Garda : 11,747
Admin staff : 1,747

It says "civilian support staff". They are not all "Admin staff", half of that number are cleaners, maintenance and the like. Your figure would appear to indicate no progress in 2 years.

Originally posted by MDR
I suppose it helps make up for the crappy pay, €34,519 after 18 years of service

With an additional €10,176 in allowances (including about €12 for lunch on top of travelling pay, €2,500 for rent, €1,000(?) for uniform) and €3,558 in overtime. Bringing average pay to almost €50,000. Commissioners make €150,000(?). However, one has to wonder why someone can't make sergeant after 18 years (I know not everyone wants to). If they don't / can't advance themselves, then why should they get any more pay increments?

Originally posted by MDR
... no wait I would be just out of Templemore so I would be on ... €19,209

…after 1 year in college and 1 year on the job training? You should also note that their students are paid an average of €12,354 (I'm not sure how much operational work trainees do). Do say engineers make that sort of money doing 4 years in college?

Victor

I suppose it's not just the Garda. The Comptroller and Auditor General did a report a few years ago - only 50-75% of fines are actually paid.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/1247314?view=Eircomnet

FG calls for inquiry into District Court convictions
From:ireland.com
Friday, 22nd August, 2003

Fine Gael has called for an investigation into why two-thirds of the 360,000 cases that appear before the Distict Court annually result in no penalty being imposed.

Figures released today in the Courts Service annual report also show that nearly half of all cases in Dublin are struck out without any court hearing at all.

Fine Gael TD, Mr John Deasy today called for an inquiry by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Mr McDowell.

"The Minister for Justice must urgently investigate why our criminal justice system is not functionally efficiently and effectively," said Mr Deasy.

"These statistics will do nothing to help public confidence or aid the determination of gardaí to pursue cases. Political responsibility for this rests with the Government which is now in its seventh year in office," said the Waterford TD.

"These figures are extremely worrying and require urgent inquiry. While it would be wrong to expect anything near a 100 per cent success rate in all cases, it is disturbing that only 34 in every 100 offences dealt with results in a penalty being imposed.

"This failure rate suggests substantial wastage or misuse in the resources deployed by the gardaí, the DPP and the Courts Service. We must find the answer to why almost one in every two cases Dublin District Court cases are struck out," he said.

vasch_ro

I think we are drifting of the topic slightly here but yes victor I agree seemingly the Irish Police are less effective than there Down Under counterparts, how ever I have to ask myself would Irsih people stand for the Irsih Police being as effective in this manner as the Queensland Police and I feel the ans is no I suspect that there would be out rage at zero tolerance type Traffic policing

the reason that people do not progress to sergeant rank after 18 years, is that the police here are notorious for who you know not what you know the promotion system is not transparent in any way shape or form, also many police feel that its not worth the hassle as you can make almost as much cash if not more than a person of sgt rank with out the same responsibilty, also if you have been in a station for 18 yrs and do get promoted you will automatically be transferred creating difficulty if you have a family etc etc , 12 yrs is the average to achive sgt rank and 50% of all promotions to this rank come from specilised police units

I know a fair few police and none of them are on anywhere near 50'000 a year , they work crap hours for crap pay and take crap all day from people who simply do not want to slow down, obey the speed limits and save lives. People point the finger of blame at the police ,I say let he who is with out sin cast the first stone I challenge any one here to actually try and obey the speed limit its damn near impossible

bonkey

Originally posted by vasch_ro
the reason that people do not progress to sergeant rank after 18 years, is <snip>

I'm sure there is also a degree of it not being purely a seniority-based system. Even if it were transparent, surely we - the public - would prefer to see a meritocracy in place, where the most capable (and eligible) person was chosen, and not simply the man or woman with the most time served because that meant they deserved it?



jc

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
I'm sure there is also a degree of it not being purely a seniority-based system. Even if it were transparent, surely we - the public - would prefer to see a meritocracy in place, where the most capable (and eligible) person was chosen, and not simply the man or woman with the most time served because that meant they deserved it?

I think he is saying it isn't based either on merit or seniority, but is an old boys club among, mostly detectives / specialists. Aside from the lack of a proper "officer corps" in the Garda over the years, traditionally ordinary (non-detective, non-specialist) Gardaí have not progressed up the ranks.

There is also similar "incest" with a disproportionate number of Gardaí having family members who are also serving.

sixtysix

surely victors last comment there is an assertion and an unsourced one at that

he has very interesting views on assertions.

Victor

Originally posted by sixtysix
surely victors last comment there is an assertion and an unsourced one at that

I am of course referring to the nepotism, just ask my ex-girlfriend her father, bother, the brother's girlfriend or the brother's girlfriend's father. :P

MDR

Victor,

One tends to find the children of Garda naturally apply for jobs with the Garda however the children of people engaged in others industries are much less likely to, there is nothing wrong with it, everyone gets an equal chance in the application process.

Than for instance my family, I have a brother in the Garda following in my dads footsteps, and I don't know any one else in my immediate peer groups, family or friends who has applied. Is this nepotism, has my borther got a place because of the family history, or did he get because, he got his degree, then his masters, then another masters, the trained physically, did mock interviews and studied the phsycometeric testing, because from what I have seen of the application process it doesn't lend itself to abuse.

I think he is saying it isn't based either on merit or seniority, but is an old boys club among, mostly detectives / specialists.

Well I won't contradict you here, however I will say that it an old boys club among the rank and file. If you want to get up in the rank and file, you need to be in your local GAA club and be from the bog, Dubliners have't a hope, don't scoff ... I have seen the most incompenent bogmen whoever walked the earth being promoted ahead of men I knew, knew the city better, knew the people better, had worked hard, longer and under tougher conditions, but that didn't leave much time to help out at the local club on match day.

I know a fair few police and none of them are on anywhere near 50'000 a year , they work crap hours for crap pay and take crap all day from

Not to mention, in crap working conditions, with crap equipment, with crap ongoing training, with crap support from the judicary, your officers and government.

I use the site about once a week to access RTA statistics. Any time I have tried searching for something many of the links thrown up are 4 and 5 years old.

Cool bananas for you, anything I saw on the website of interest to most people i.e. traffic, missing persons et al, was bang up to date.

I'm sure. The figures were released by the commissioner and publish in the media about 3 or 4 months ago after someone said there was only 400 gardaí on duty at any one time.

Any chance of a solid link at all, you must have got that nicely formatted table from somewhere ....

However, one has to wonder why someone can't make sergeant after 18 years (I know not everyone wants to). If they don't / can't advance themselves, then why should they get any more pay increments?

I don't know the reasons would be the same for arguing to pay a teacher more or a fire fighter more. I won't argue they case that sometimes the Garda keeps some of its best people down because it seems to be a situation which is slowily changing. But take as for instance the public-private benchmarking awards, the teachers who striked got a 15/16%, because they striked the country into submission, the Garda who save the very occasional blue flu just got on with it and got 5%, thats gonna do wonders for moral ... oh yeah ... should we really be asking Garda to work overtime to make up a decent wage ... plus the €50,000 figure is laughable ... go ask your 'ex-girlfriend her father, bother, the brother's girlfriend or the brother's girlfriend's father' how much they are on ....

…after 1 year in college and 1 year on the job training?

After two years at college (in addition to the 4 years + of real college many Garda undertake these days), plus one year probation with a trip back to college at the end, and then one year in the force.

Do say engineers make that sort of money doing 4 years in college?

I don't know many engineers but I know plenty of scientists, chemical, biological etc who make quiet a bit more than that ... usually around €15,000 more.

You should also note that their students are paid an average of €12,354 (I'm not sure how much operational work trainees do).

Last time I looked they bounced between college and a Garda station quite a bit during their training with their level of responsiblity increasing with each term in at a station, €12,000 is an ok sum while they are being trained, templemore provides acommadation, meal et al for them, but €19,000 (€21,000 including boot allowance etc you pointed out) after so many years of training is a pittance, regardless of what they earn in queensland, here in Ireland, its not enough.

bonkey

Originally posted by MDR
I don't know many engineers but I know plenty of scientists, chemical, biological etc who make quiet a bit more than that ... usually around €15,000 more.

Thats after graduation...which is typically after 4 years in Uni.

The point Victor was making (I think) was that they don't make this money until after those 4 years, by which stage, the garda has earned 12,000 a year for two years, and then more on completion (19,000, was it).

So, if you take two people and put them on alternate paths (engineer, and garda), after 4 years the garda has earned 72,000, and the university student has not.

Take the difference in salary after that and work out how many years it would take to make up the difference, and you'll start getting an idea of where the point is coming from. If the university graduate earns an average of 6,000 more than a garda, year on year, then it will only take a "mere" 12 years before their respective total earnings balance out.

jc

MDR

Thats after graduation...which is typically after 4 years in Uni.

Any Garda I know has completed a degree at university before joining the Garda, it is increasingily seen a 'good idea' before joining up, although I amn't sure what the percent of applicants or Cadets with degrees are.

My point was its a pityful wage for people who do four years of normal uni, plus another three (roughily) in and out of templemore and then one year on the job ....

Victor

Originally posted by MDR
Not to mention, in crap working conditions, with crap equipment, with crap ongoing training, with crap support from the judicary, your officers and government.

And every other job has this as well. Nurses have life or death responsibilities. Teachers are responsible for 30 children for extended periods. If an engineer screws up designing a bridge people will die. Construction workers have to work all weathers in effectively primitive conditions. Why are Gardaí so special?

Originally posted by MDR
Any chance of a solid link at all, you must have got that nicely formatted table from somewhere ....

I saved it in the same file as the road deaths stuff. Will try a google.

Originally posted by MDR
But take as for instance the public-private benchmarking awards, the teachers who striked got a 15/16%, because they striked the country into submission, the Garda who save the very occasional blue flu just got on with it and got 5%, thats gonna do wonders for moral

Hang on, all factors were taken into account and they were justly awarded 5% on top of national agreements. That is what their job was assessed to be worth. That at a time when industry and private sector services are haemorrhaging jobs?

Originally posted by MDR
the Garda who save the very occasional blue flu

But very illegal blue flu. I wonder how many were charged with fraud? I'm guessing none.

Originally posted by MDR
... oh yeah ... should we really be asking Garda to work overtime to make up a decent wage ...

But it's OK for a cleaner of McDonald's worker on minimum wage (€6.35/hour = €12,878/year) to have to do overtime? Basic income of an average Garda (all ranks) is €35,436. Basic income of an average cleaner (“industrial grade” – all ranks) employed by the Garda is €6,634.

Originally posted by MDR
plus the €50,000 figure is laughable ...

It is an average over all officers up to commissioner, but excludes pensions. The Average Industrial Wage (which includes management) is €26,891.

Originally posted by MDR
go ask your 'ex-girlfriend her father, bother, the brother's girlfriend or the brother's girlfriend's father' how much they are on ....

She's not talking to me anymore

Originally posted by MDR
After two years at college (in addition to the 4 years + of real college many Garda undertake these days), plus one year probation with a trip back to college at the end, and then one year in the force.

As I understand it the “two years at college” includes the one year probation. Most police forces use 26 week training courses.

That someone wishes to do a degree is to a point unnecessary (unless they want to become a specialist, but a lot of specialists in the Garda are actually civilians). You only need to scrape a pass in the Leaving Cert to qualify. In the UK they actually decline over trained applicants.

Originally posted by MDR
My point was its a pityful wage for people who do four years of normal uni, plus another three (roughily) in and out of templemore and then one year on the job ....

So it's four years now?

Originally posted by MDR
but €19,000 (€21,000 including boot allowance etc you pointed out)

But this is still at or near the level at which many new degree graduates earn in higher professions.

MDR

Construction workers have to work all weathers in effectively primitive conditions.

Yes but construction workers have top of the range, well maintained equipment when they need it. Garda also have the problem that they are a sacrifical lamb at every election and that our shoddy legal system doesn't support them in their work, no different to our nurses I suppose, but then they get a pretty raw deal too don't they, two wrongs don't make a right I suppose.

Hang on, all factors were taken into account and they were justly awarded 5% on top of national agreements. That is what their job was assessed to be worth. That at a time when industry and private sector services are haemorrhaging jobs?

I will repeat at the same time teachers came out with 16%, only prison warders did worse, who where the Garda benchmarked against .... security guards ? it seems a pretty unfair process, and to be honest in light of the fact that teachers can strike and Garda can't, not very supprising.

But it's OK for a cleaner of McDonald's worker on minimum wage (€6.35/hour = €12,878/year) to have to do overtime?

Garda represent a very important part of society, we expect them to keep the peace, are they more important than a cleaner ?, is important that they are fresh with a clear mind on the job ? is it important that when we ask them to do night shifts that have had sufficent time and space to recoup before and after the shift ?

Plus what does this say to our about our society and our attitude to work ? if will treat the Garda like crap is that not then license for employers in the private sector to follow suit.

But very illegal blue flu. I wonder how many were charged with fraud? I'm guessing none.

Oh we should be very proud of our democratic society that takes away the legal right to strike for better working conditions. If I was Garda I would go on strike tomorrow and not come back until I got some respect and support from govt and the judicary.

As I understand it the “two years at college” includes the one year probation. Most police forces use 26 week training courses.

When my bro did it not so long ago, it was two years at college plus one year probation.

It is an average over all officers up to commissioner, but excludes pensions.

Average it might be but I have never met a Garda or Sergeant (I don't see any of the other ranks) who earn anywhere close to that, so there is obviousily a cleaner somewhere working crazy overtime ...

You only need to scrape a pass in the Leaving Cert to qualify. In the UK they actually decline over trained applicants.

Yes but in Ireland, where we live, you are encouraged to get a university degree (perferably something like sociology) before you join up. You get ahead faster this way apparentily, although I am not convinced.

So it's four years now?

Have you been reading my posts at all ...

Four year degree,
plus two years at templemore,
plus one year probabation

and they earn earn far short of the minium wage, hardily encouraging the cream of the crop to join up ....

Victor

Originally posted by MDR
My point was its a pityful wage for people who do four years of normal uni, plus another three (roughily) in and out of templemore and then one year on the job ....

Originally posted by MDR
Four year degree, [Victor - not needed]
plus two years at templemore, [Victor - with pay and allowances]
plus one year probabation [Victor - included in the two years in Templemore - see below]

Retraction please?

Originally posted by MDR
and they earn earn far short of the minium wage,

Really? Can you lay out the bare figures for me?

Originally posted by MDR
hardily encouraging the cream of the crop to join up ....

I'm sorry you don't need the "cream of the crop" to stand around the gatehouse of Leinster House all day or point a laser gun at traffic or direct traffic or put parking tickets on cars.

http://www.garda.ie/angarda/col/student.html

Course Duration and Structure
The overall Student/Probationer, Education/Training/Development Programme is of two years duration and consists of five separate, but integrated phases as follows:
Phase I 22 weeks at the Garda Síochána College, followed by two weeks leave of absence;
Phase II 24 weeks at a selected station, followed by two weeks leave of absence;
Phase III 12 weeks at the Garda Síochána College;
Phase IV 36 weeks at a selected station;
Phase V 6 weeks at the Garda Síochána College.

Further, the pay and allowances you refered to seem to have been updated. http://www.garda.ie/angarda/press.html

The current pay scale starts at €20,662.00, rising by increments to €37,129.00. In addition a number of allowances are paid to members; Rent Allowance €3,386.00 p.a., Boot/Shoe Allowance €152.36 p.a. and Uniform Allowance €228.28 p.a.

Havelock

Not all Gardi should be brushed with the same sticky black stuff, but the law is a joke and it is hard for them to do their job with such ridculas signage and etc.

It would be like the Special Branch ringing you 24 hours before hand to let you know they were going to bust in on your drug processing plant the next day. Its stupid.

MDR

Victor,

Garda Recruirment


I quote

Basic training is divided into five phases and lasts a total of three years. Initially, students spend 22 weeks at the College, followed by a period of 24 weeks spent at selected stations under the direct supervision of tutorial staff. After further training at the College, students become members of the Service, empowered to enforce legislation the same as senior colleagues and are attached to stations, although remaining under probation for a further two year period.

MDR

I further quote from their frequentily asked questions

I have a university degree. Will that help me?

Once you satisfy the basic entry requirements you are entitled to apply and sit the aptitude test. If successful you will find that your degree may assist you as you develop your career. Computer crime section, Fraud, Criminal Assets Bureau and our research unit are examples of sections where a relevant degree would be an advantage.

MDR

Really? Can you lay out the bare figures for me?

Ah i meant to say the average wage, they earn about €6,000 under the average wage starting off ... hardily encourage Graduates to join up ...

vasch_ro

Just to clear up a few points although we are really going way off base here with regard to the original thread


Course Duration and Structure
The overall Student/Probationer, Education/Training/Development Programme is of two years duration and consists of five separate, but integrated phases as follows:
Phase I 22 weeks at the Garda Síochána College, followed by two weeks leave of absence;
Phase II 24 weeks at a selected station, followed by two weeks leave of absence;
Phase III 12 weeks at the Garda Síochána College;
Phase IV 36 weeks at a selected station;
Phase V 6 weeks at the Garda Síochána College.

When you start phase iv (phase 4) you are attested into the Police and receive all your Police powers at this stage you also go on a two year probationary period starting from the day that you are sworn in, if you have a degree or similar qualification entering the Police and there are a few they get increments in their pay up to a max of 3 jumps on the scale after they complete the probationary period , many young police are then so I am told referred to as probationers
i realise that there are no links or tables to support my claims but I a have a lot of sources in the boys in blue ( one has a degree in Computer Science the other a marketing degree)
As as I can ascertain the cleaners referred to by Victor are now emplyed by privately run Cleaning contractors and win the contract by by tender , the old style cleaners emplyed directly by the Dept of Justice are being phased out most of then work part time early in the mornings

lastly the police here do a variety of shifts which chop and change sometimes with only an 8 hr gap between shifts ie finish at 10 pm back in at 6am or finish at 6am back in at 2pm that day how any one would be fit for serving the public after that short bbrake is beyond me
also the Gardai do not have a union entitled to sit at the partnership talks as do most other groupings they only have a rep body whom most people feel are out of touch with their members
I just wish people would slow down , wear seat belts and have less road rage and that the this new Traffic Corps wasn't going to be pulled by Minister Brennan
i wish less people died on our roads I wish people wouldn't drink and drive , untill evryone feels this way the problems will continue the people need to change not the laws the people

STaN

Originally posted by B-K-DzR
The thing is there has to be plenty of warning for people (ie signs and stuff) and they have to be easily visible. The law is bollox imo, there shouldnt be any warning that you could be fined or that up ahead somewhere theres's a cop with a speed gun. This gives u plenty of time to slow down and then speed up again after. Same with speed cameras.
It gives the offenders too much time to slow down and lets them believe they can beat the system (which face it, they can unless your fairly stupid/unobservant.)

Isnt there a rumour tho that we are getting our own 'highway patrol'' to Police the roads. Perhaps they'd do a better job and take some strain offa the guards?

Eh.. I've seen plenty of guards hiding behind bushes and walls and even lamp posts with guns and no warnings before them. You don't even know their guards till you've driven past. They look like construction workers with those laser sight things.

They have to have warnings?

MDR

lastly the police here do a variety of shifts which chop and change sometimes with only an 8 hr gap between shifts ie finish at 10 pm back in at 6am or finish at 6am back in at 2pm that day how any one would be fit for serving the public after that short bbrake is beyond me
also the Gardai do not have a union entitled to sit at the partnership talks as do most other groupings they only have a rep body whom most people feel are out of touch with their members
I just wish people would slow down , wear seat belts and have less road rage and that the this new Traffic Corps wasn't going to be pulled by Minister Brennan
i wish less people died on our roads I wish people wouldn't drink and drive , untill evryone feels this way the problems will continue the people need to change not the laws the people

here here, it was refreshing to read vasch_ro's post and I recognise all the things he talks about, I fully agree that we need a dedicated traffic corps, also the eight hour break thing isn't that big a bone of contention, the big bone is when Garda's spend have to spend all day in court after a night shift and then have to go do another night shift afterwards .... that really sucks ....

BKtje

They have to have warnings?

Im under the impression that you did but not that you have asked the question ill look into it.
Ill let ya know what i find.

vasch_ro

ans no
how do I know they often use my estate to hide in so
I asked them they laughed at the idea that would have to erect a warning sign