Oil? is it going to be the real cause of Armageddon!.

Paddy20

As the thread "Is Toady Blair the ANTI - CHRIST ? thread appears to have been swamped by a debate on OIL and the consequences peoples greed for it may result in. Including the threat of further wars apart from Iraq.

I thought that a new thread was called for, in fairness to Mr Tony Blair.

So, is oil going to start a third world war, or be the main cause of Armageddon?..

Paddy20.

Sparks

Probably not so much oil as:
1) Energy
2) Economical dependence on the artifical support the dollar receives from OPEC's "we sell for dollars only" policy.

Sparks

However, a more long-term problem is more likely to be hinted at by this article.

In short, we don't have enough resources and energy for everyone to enjoy a high standard of living. Which is going to cause problems shortly.

Paddy20

Yes, interesting article Sparks, and the website its on has now been added to my favs list. The article I think inadvertantly gives an interesting insight in too the American mode of thinking?.. Nice one.

Paddy20.;)

BKtje

Unlikely that the lack of oil will cause problems imo. The hydrogen car already exists and is expected to be mass marketed within 20 years. (currently costs 5million dollars to produce or so according to top gear) We would have had it already if it wasnt for the oil companies.
The vegetable oil engine already exists also. The sooner oil runs out the sooner our environment will start to recover.

Oil is expected to last another 60 years or so if current levels of increasing consumption continue (or so i learned in geography). Even if its only 3/4 that thats still 45 odd years to perfect other things. Imo the sooner we loose our dependance on oil the better.

Sparks

B-K-DzR, one word - Plastics.

Paddy20

Hmmm,

B-K-DzR,

Interesting, and while we are waiting for the oil to run out. How long would it take one of the lunatic Countries with Nuclear bombs to press the button?..:eek:

mike65

I agree on the oil issue it wont be the cause of armagedeon,
recourse wars are more likely over fresh water, and the stuff you make sim cards out of!

On plastics this is interesting
http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Alternatives/Corntainer-Plastic-Sans-Oil13jun03.htm
of course its small scale stuff but maybe a pointer...

Mike.

Sparks

It boils down to:

1. Can it be made in sufficently large quantities?
2. Can it be made economically?
3. Can it be used to make as many types of plastic?

Paddy20

mike65,

I had a look at the site you posted. Then I followed a link from there to here:- http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/nucs2003.htm

Have not read it all yet but I intend too.

BKtje

Havent read those links on plastics yet but will do so i a moment.

If oil runs out then people will find alternatives to plastics and as i said we still got a fair few years before that happens. It's amazing what people come up with when they have no alternative. I'm not saying that there won't be changes once oil runs out but i believe we won't be as dependant on black gold by the time it does.

Paddy: how long would it take for one of the lunatic countries to press the button today?

/me goes off to read those links on plastic.

BKtje

Well after reading that it seems likethe idea has promise as long as a none petroleum based pestiticides and stuff can be found.

On the concerns that Sparks mentioned.

Can it be made in sufficently large quantities?

Once the demand rises it will be in the best interests of the companies to mass produce to maximize profits. Im sure they'll spend a fair amount of money on it but i (like no one else here) can't know for sure if its possible

Can it be made economically?

I wonder how much plastic cost to make when it was fist created. In time (and with masss production) the price to produce should drop.

Can it be used to make as many types of plastic?

Perhaps not, again a question for experts but if it can't, im fairly sure another type will be created to fullfill the needs of the relevant industries.

I am the eternal Optimist it seems

Sleipnir

The people who run america (i.e. the corporations) are not interested in cars that run on vegatable or or hydrogen. Well, they are interested in them, specifically interested in supressing them and doing everything in their powe to prevent them becoming a reality until there is no other choice. they won't make as much money off either.
It all boils down to money, that's what the Iraq war boils down to and that's the what (forthcoming) Iran war will boil down to.
Those who control the oil (or energy, but the word oil is shorter so I'll use that) control the world, the more oil controlled by America, the more it can force it's policies on the rest of us.
This can so easily be seen by the price of petrol in your local garage.
Have a look at the attached text file. It's an essay on the petro-dollar and how Iraq's changing to Euro as the oil exchange rate, screwed them up big time.

Sesshoumaru

The hydrogen car already exists and is expected to be mass marketed within 20 years.

The problem with hydrogen cars is that they still haven't figured out a way to make hydrogen in an enviromentally friendly way i.e. they are still burning fossil fuels in power plants. Until this problem is solved I wouldn't put to much faith in hydrogen powered vehicles.

colinsky

nope, nope, nope.

not oil. if the major conflict comes, it will be to defend ourself against the major evil of all time, religion.

Paddy20

B-K-DzR,

About as long as it takes you to touch your nose?.. Now just press on this link:- http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/nucs2003.htm

A real frightener of a site!

Paddy20.

BKtje

In relation to the car (all i know about it was what i saw on top gear). You stick a form of water in (water and salt or something) and out the exhaust coems water. I dont see where the burning of fosil fuels comes in unless its used to create this 'special' water.

Paddy there is an awful lot to read on that site and since im in work i cant dedicate that much time to it till i get home.
(i dont know how much faith i stick in these scarmongering sites but ill reserve further judgement till after i've read it)

The Beer Baron

Oil is but a resource.

Before it would have been coal, or steel.
Whatever the blood the courses thru the veins of future industry might be it will still be nothing but a resource.
Wars have been fought over gold, over silk, spices, diamonds, furs- even tea.

The control of these territores where the resources are found, and the trade routes which link them has been the agenda of colonial powers from the beginning of history.

Iraq ptII is nothing new as will Iran/Syria/Venezuela/Nigeria- wherever they decide to go next- it will be but a means to an end. To control today's most vital economic resource- oil.

If it were the blood of babies that turned the cogs of industry then we would have no choice but to turn a blind eye as industrialists strapped them down and slit their wrists. (Which of course- metaphorically speaking- is what they have just done)

And how do we disguise this? With ideology. With freedom and jesus on one side, and with allah striking the infidel on the other. Oh please! Is that the best they could come up with? Islam vs Christianity- good to rile the masses of nations who are diametrically-opposed culturally yet simularly fundamentalist religiously. God is on our side, no, God is on OUR side! The ****ing Oil Crusades is it? We shall liberate Iraq from the evil Hitler-type and take the oil back from the heathens (a regime who cared about as much about preeching an Islamic message as they did the Kurds or any other ethnic minority in Iraq for that matter) using the money to build a democratic Iraq- build it in our image. God bless the 51st State. Bollox!

Does the average plebe care how much blood was spilled "in his name", or more to the point- to fill the tanks of his Fiat ****ing Punto? No.

Got a problem with it? Then say bye bye to your Reality TV, your celebrity magazines, your FCUK t-shirts, any chance of being fed, clothed, any chance of free education, health care, electricity, clean drinking water, etc, etc. And be prepared to be just like them.

It is not oil par sé, rather it is the economics of exploitation that shall spell our doom. We are fed, (and fed and fed and fed some of us) and clothed (not as a means of protection from the elements but to impress out peers) - everything we take for granted comes to us courtesy of those who do not have food, clothing, shelter, the bare necessities, as the song goes.

Alternative energies are here- they've been here for decades but they are suppressed- as they would proove damaging to the status quo. Government cannot compete- we're all part of this cycle. All western governments, and those held to ransom in the 3rd world and former eastern bloc can only comply too.

Oil, it's just black crap, the sludgy remains of organic matter that died millions of years ago. It's a hot commodity- control of it means economic control. Economic control means the control of all else. Wars for more resources, wars for the minds of the masses to keep those who have control in the lap of luxury- so they can enjoy the good life @ the expense of others.

But consider this- birth rates in the 1st world are down. But in the 3rd they're multiplying rapidly. Resources will become scare, all resources. And whatever the blood of industry shall be- well, they'll want some too, we all will.

Our problem? Our Armageddon? It might be about oil, I mean who knows what new technologies may follow- AI supercomputers, advances in biotechnology and nannotechnology- all that sci fi fodder- it's suddenly being realised. Perhaps future wars will be fought with even deadlier WMD's over dilithuim crystals but the result will be the same- VR-blinkering of the masses, shock and awe- zero casualties V evil west bombs puppy dogs and orphanages- in the end it's just a symptom. Just as the AIDS epidemic is just a symptom. Just as war and terrorism and religious/political waffling is just a symptom- colour it any way you like, in the end we've simply improved out standard of living @ the expense of others, moved the Dickensian slums to warmer climbs, buried it under the carpet of the smily media and forgotten it.

And this is the centre of it.
I spout all this crap- truth? I would do almost anything to have a million quid, to drive my own Porsche- oh you have no idea.
Capitalism bashing- it's easy when you're not rich but not exactly poor either. You're not rich enough, yet you're comfortable enough to care about it, otherwise you'd be more concerned with starvation.

It's greed people. It's greed.
And I'm just as guilty of it as anybody else.
One of our major flaws- and oh we have many.

We are not sociable creatures, we cannot exist in harmony with ourselves let alone with each other or our enviroment. We are the ultimate carnivores, cannibals and monsters. Our ideologies are as cumbersome and obstinate as the biggest, cold-blooded dinosaurs (spare me a paleontological debate for the sake of a metaphor please) and much like them our extinction shall be a result of this.

(phew!- sorry- this went on a bit- I apologise for the lengty rantyness of it all)

mike65

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
But consider this- birth rates in the 1st world are down. But in the 3rd they're multiplying rapidly. Resources will become scare, all resources. And whatever the blood of industry shall be- well, they'll want some too, we all will.


(phew!- sorry- this went on a bit- I apologise for the lengty rantyness of it all)

I nod sagely with most of what you said but birth rates are falling everywhere now, its just a relative difference these days.

Rants are good here- this is the politics board!

Mike.