ASAI: Toothless wonders or wha'?

Eurorunner

I got a response from the ASAI. They say that my complaint was passed on to the Rat for comment - they came back saying that they had made an error in advertising Ashbourne as an enabled exchange and that their advertising has been amended accordingly.

"In the light of this explanation and the action taken, we (ASAI) do not consider that there is a need to pursue the matter further."


Well, i can understand that the advertiser may be given an opportunity to put things right, but then on the other hand, €ircon have still gotten away with misleading the public.

dahamsta

Originally posted by Eurorunner
€ircon have still gotten away with misleading the public.

Again. Has the ASAI /ever/ done anything other than give the offender a light slap on the wrist and wipe the slate clean until next time?

adam

shinzon

ye know it just occured to me that Comreg and the ASAI just have no testicles, these guys regulate the telecommunications and advertising in ireland repectively and they just dont haave the balls to say to EIRCOM basically to **** off this is how your gonna do it if not massive fines will be imposed till you do.

When are these guys going to get off there arses and actually do something about the terrible state of Broadband and the copper in this country.


COMREG GETA PAIR OF STEEL ONES FOR GOD SAKE AND ASAI A PAIR OF BRASS ONES FOR YOU AND START PROTECTING THE PEOPLE YOUR SUPPOSED TO BE PROTECTING

THE CONSUMER US, you know the little people, those with no power.

Rant over

Shin

MDR

Again. Has the ASAI /ever/ done anything other than give the offender a light slap on the wrist and wipe the slate clean until next time?

The question is do they have the power to do anything else ...

dahamsta

Well, there's a big difference between Comreg and the ASAI isn't there? Both are effectively sponsored by the companies they "regulate", but Comreg is a statutory body and the ASAI is an independent self-regulatory body set up and financed by the advertising industry. Is it time for a statutory body in charge of advertising and marketing standards? Self-regulation doesn't seem to be working, there's a classic loop of repeat offenses that could be considered beneficial to the existence of the ASAI.

adam

Eurorunner

I'm sure there must be someone out there who has a more in depth knowledge of how the ASAI systems works? An insight would be good so that we can try and work what is more than likely a crappy system.

Basically, in the case of this particular issue, the best i was hoping for was bad publicity for the RAT.

The sort of thing where the ASAI come out and say that 'this complaint against eircom has been upheld'...and it gets reported in the media.
Is this just decided at the whim of the ASAI or do they feel that they need to receive a certain number of complaints before this triggers them to take a complaint seriously?

My complaint only detailed the Ashbourne exchange but we know from the posts above that there were others ie.foxrock, carlow.
I could go back and relodge a complaint for these other ones..but is there any point? How many 'mistakes' or 'errors' is the Rat allowed to make?

raphaelS

My complaint only detailed the Ashbourne exchange but we know from the posts above that there were others ie.foxrock, carlow.

I complained about the Foxrock Echange, I got the post card from ASAI saying that they got my complaint, that's all.

How did you get your feedback about Ashbourne (mail, email,...)?

Raphael

Eurorunner

.

How did you get your feedback about Ashbourne (mail, email,...)?

Got notification by mail this morning. I'm sure you'll get the same shortly.
However, if theres a number of locations, surely this goes from being 'an erro' to a blatant lie. I'm just thinking how misleading this is for your average joe...cos looking at their advertisment - which went into every major Sunday newspaper that weekend - your average punter would think that €ircon are doing a good job in rolling out adsl...

Can you all review the list again just in case there are any more.

So far we have Ashbourne; Carlow; Foxrock

sceptre

I've split this off from the other thread (and given it a new title) as it's an interesting side-discussion.

The only reference on the ASAI site about penalties seems to be:

Publication of Case Reports, including names of advertisers and agencies involved, is an important element of the self-regulatory system. An advertisement or sales promotion which breaks the rules must be withdrawn or amended and media will refuse to publish an advertisment which fails to conform with Code requirements.

A member who does not accept ASAI decisions may be disciplined by the Board and may be subject to penalties including fines and/or suspension of membership. These penalties are rarely invoked; there is a strong commitment to the self-regulatory system throughout the advertising business and ASAI adjudications are invariably accepted and implemented.

which seems a little vague to be honest. Additionally as people have pointed out (and certainly will continue to notice) is that the system certainly seems to fail in the case of Eircom. The adverts are withdrawn, sure, but nothing seems to be done to them as serial advert liars.

Personally I think it is time to at least consider establishing the ASAI on statutory grounds. It would be a new departure though, equivalent agencies in theUK, New Zealand & Canada all seem to have the same structure as the ASAI do here. South Africa though (link down, look here instead) do seem to be established on statutory grounds and is itself concerned at the voluntary nature of its members (er, in other words they want to be more statutory than they are now)

dahamsta

I don't think we could pull it off in Ireland with Fianna Fáil in government anyway. Probably not Fine Gael either. Strong are the business ties with these ones.

adam

shabbyroad

The ASAI is the police-policing-the-police.

I find it really funny when I hear people on the radio or even in conversation saying how they're going to complain to the ASAI.

These people are the advertising agencies. They're NOT going to do anything !

I could set up a similar organization in the morning that would be just as effective... hmmmm...I see a money-making opportunity there. (look at the 'Better Business Bureau' in the USA.... wanna make a complaint ? then you pay up.... what is that all about then ?)

Sooner people realise the the ASAI is nothing but a lost-letter-department for the adveritsing agencies and their clients the better.
If you want to complain about an advertisement you should go directly to the company making the advertisement and explain how you just didn't spend money on their product because of it and also how you've just posted the details online to a widely read website such as boards.ie
(with the exception of the boards.ie bit it worked for me when I was particularly p1ssed off with a racist advertisement by a car dealership : I sent them a letter and told them I was deliberately not buying a car from them and went elsewhere.....did too and it gave me a lot of pleasure).

Consumers have to make businesses feel the pain if they want better service. Last year I wrote back to a well known travel agency that fecked myself and my wife when we booked our honeymoon 10 years ago... I totalled up how much we and our family had spent on holidays with their competitors in the 10 years because they refused to even entertain our (legitimate imho) complaint..... did they give a sh1te ? ... do I care ? no.... but it was fun doing it !

sceptre

Originally posted by shabbyroad
Last year I wrote back to a well known travel agency that fecked myself and my wife when we booked our honeymoon 10 years ago... I totalled up how much we and our family had spent on holidays with their competitors in the 10 years because they refused to even entertain our (legitimate imho) complaint..... did they give a sh1te ? ... do I care ? no.... but it was fun doing it !

Good for you. As I've mentioned on another board here when I had a bad experience with Dell and also happened to have a job ordering things I took joy in faxing the boss of the guy who'd made a balls of my repair return at Dell the 80 grand order I placed with Compaq for my company.

Nevertheless, the ASAI are also useful for actually getting companies like Eircom and Esat to rework their adverts. I'd rather at least get that done than do nothing at all. Neither company, after all, is really going to care all that much if I drop my paltry phone bill (180 for the last two months with Esat) and switch to another company. Obviously if everyone does it it'll be a different story but that's getting back to part of the reason IOFFL exists in the first place.


see the way I cunningly took the post back to Eircom's advert and the ASAI. Not moving this to Business/Economy yet

pete

ASAI has no power?

Alcohol ads banned by authority
http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/1023/print/ads.html

Advertising Standards Authority strikes down television ads
http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0223/newsatone/news1pm5a.ram

Also, the simple fact that the media picks up on the reprimands over findings of misleading or innacurate advertising is a Very Good Thing

shabbyroad

at the risk of dragging the thread waaaay off topic

"We've instructed the media not to run them," said Edward McCumiskey, ASAI chief executive.

"It's an instruction to them that this ad is not to appear again, although they can come back with a modified version."



is not the same as banning - they can't actually ban an advert nor can they make anyone change an advert ... they can only 'instruct'

To get it back on track.......
I notice a lot of small print in today's 'Broadband' advert by the rat in today's Irish Times - looks like some of the compaining is resulting is some results albeit at 5pt size.....

dahamsta

I don't think anyone's arguing that the ASAI isn't effective to a certain degree, and I think that many here will testify that the ASAI has been a very useful tool for IrelandOffline members to take telco's to task for misleading advertising. The problem is a very specific one, in that Eircom (in particular) consistently publishes misleading advertising and it's obvious (at least to us) that this is fully intentional. Examples should be made of repeat offenders in my view, but the ASAI seems unwilling to do this.

adam

Dustaz

Originally posted by shabbyroad

I find it really funny when I hear people on the radio or even in conversation saying how they're going to complain to the ASAI.

These people are the advertising agencies. They're NOT going to do anything !

I could set up a similar organization in the morning that would be just as effective... hmmmm...I see a money-making opportunity there. (look at the 'Better Business Bureau' in the USA.... wanna make a complaint ? then you pay up.... what is that all about then ?)

Sooner people realise the the ASAI is nothing but a lost-letter-department for the adveritsing agencies and their clients the better.
If you want to complain about an advertisement you should go directly to the company making the advertisement and explain how you just didn't spend money on their product because of it and also how you've just posted the details online to a widely read website such as boards.ie

Sorry, but most of this is utter rubbish. Can you explain to me exactly how writing a letter to an uncaring middle management serf in eircom who will throw it in the bin is somehow better than making a complaint to a body which , contrary to what is posted here, has to power to shelve a commercial?

What color is the sky in your world?

Im sure you felt a lot better after complaining to the end company but in eircoms example they dont care what you think. You are nothing to them. You are less than nothing because as you read the boards here you are probably more likely to use a competitor.

Complaining to the asai stops certain ads dead. This stems the flow (admittedly very slightly) of bullshìt coming from the evil empire.


Unfortunatly the asai dont really have the power to deal with anything more than current ads, they cannot for example punish repeat offenders.

Maybe the BACC in britain are able to do this (Nearly every irish ad script must be approved by the BACC since nearly every irish ad is aired on utv/sky news/etc)

shabbyroad

Sorry, but most of this is utter rubbish. Can you explain to me exactly how writing a letter to an uncaring middle management serf in eircom who will throw it in the bin is somehow better than making a complaint to a body which , contrary to what is posted here, has to power to shelve a commercial?

I think you need to re-read - I said nothing about complaining to serfs in the rat. That would be a complete waste of time.
And as for the ASAI - Read what they say about themselves on their site :


Publication of Case Reports, including names of advertisers and agencies involved, is an important element of the self-regulatory system. An advertisement or sales promotion which breaks the rules must be withdrawn or amended and media will refuse to publish an advertisment which fails to conform with Code requirements.



Oh my God ! You're right.... they do have the power to ban !
NOT :rolleyes:

but they can :
A member who does not accept ASAI decisions may be disciplined by the Board and may be subject to penalties including fines and/or suspension of membership. These penalties are rarely invoked; there is a strong commitment to the self-regulatory system throughout the advertising business and ASAI adjudications are invariably accepted and implemented.

oooh. a real history of um.... something I'm sure

now... you're probably wondering (I know I was...) why these sanctions are "rarely invoked".... so I wandered along to their "who pays" page and it says

The self-regulatory system is funded entirely by the advertising industry and involves no charge to consumers or to the State. Costs are shared across the industry, ensuring that all advertising sectors participate but that none exercises any special influence over ASAI operations. This independent status is a key factor in maintaining public confidence in the self-regulatory system.

nahhhh. that couldn't be it could it ? nahh. I'm must be getting cynical in my old age.

I'm not going to continue debate the ability or otherwise of the ASAI - I've been there done that and my experience over a number of years of dealing with them has ranged from infuriating to farcical.

I do however agree that there has been some movement as a result of complaining about the rat's advertisements - but it's got more to do with consumers biting the rats arse and less than the ASAI proactively slapping them down.

The key here is the complaint procedure. If people didn't complain the ASAI would sit there in its lovely Dublin 4 offices doing SFA. I've not been able to find a single instance where the ASAI as a body actually instigates a complaint.
Basically they function as the kicking boy for the ad agencies and their clients so that they don't have to deal with the nasty general public directly. You'll also see various companies bitching at each other because they can use it as publicity material when they "win" (ha !)

What color is the sky in your world?

Ah there's no need for that now... your argument stands up quite well on it's own... have some confidence in yourself !

sceptre

Originally posted by shabbyroad
The key here is the complaint procedure. If people didn't complain the ASAI would sit there in its lovely Dublin 4 offices doing SFA. I've not been able to find a single instance where the ASAI as a body actually instigates a complaint.

I quite doubt you'll find one. I assume the ASAI was set up in an effort to get there before the State did. Now, any time I've heard any industry protesting that there's no need for regulation, that they can police themselves I've laughed. Every time without question. I wouldn't say that the ASAI are powerless (& they're certainly better than nothing) but the lack of actual power for one thing is something I'd like to see changed. Giving the ASAI the actual power to take proper sanctions against repeat offenders and to take pre-emptive action would be likely to require that it be set up on statutory grounds. It wouldn't actually require it but if they got mroe power a few ground rules might be nice. "With great power comes great responsibility" as someone once said[1]. OK, that would cost the taxpayer money but total protection is preferable to the merry round a few advertisers (not just Eircom) seem happy to send the ASAI committee on.

[1]Yes, I know who. Down, comic-book fanboys

Eurorunner

steering this back towards the ins n outs of this particular scenario, does anyone believe that there is any potential left in this to achieve the media statements of 'the ASAI upheld complaint against €ircon..blah..blah..blah..'
If so, what else can be done to shove it in this direction.

If not, what does it take to achieve this sort of result? Would be useful to know for future reference..........so that i know whether i would be wasting my time or not.

sceptre

Originally posted by Eurorunner
If not, what does it take to achieve this sort of result? Would be useful to know for future reference..........so that i know whether i would be wasting my time or not.

Lots of complaints, Eurorunner. The last one probably made the news for a few reasons: it was heading towards the silly season for news (they have to report something in the politics & business pages while the Dail and businesses are on holidays) and more importantly they had 36 complaints about the one advert. That's 9% of their total for all adverts by all companies in an average year. That's newsworthy at any time of the year.

While this board can't become an anti-Eircom board or anti-any-other-telco board (we've better things to be doing as users well know), if you can spot a blatant lie or misleading remark of a material nature with regard to telecoms or the Internet in Ireland in an advert AND post up details AND people verify the lies for themselves, people here will complain. It's a sounding board that's available to all users as long as it's not abused.

Note though that it's very important that the misleading nature of the advert is verified independently by anyone who's willing to complain though - it would be far too easy for someone to post here and mislead all of us otherwise.

Eurorunner

While this board can't become an anti-Eircom board

OK, i understand..but wouldnt it be fair to say that bad times for eircon may lead to good times for irelandoffline..on its way to achieving its objectives?

sceptre

Originally posted by Eurorunner
OK, i understand..but wouldnt it be fair to say that bad times for eircon may lead to good times for irelandoffline..on its way to achieving its objectives?

At the moment yeah, but that's only as a result of their own actions in being a company that reacts to threats in the marketplace rather than actually trying to improve the lot of their subscribers. In other words, knocking Eircom, where relevant, is a means to an end (getting all of us proper affordable Net access) rather than something the organisation is doing just because they don't like the company. Mind you, I don't like them at all but that's only my personal non-modding opinion.

Eurorunner

but that's only as a result of their own actions in being a company that reacts to threats in the marketplace rather than actually trying to improve the lot of their subscribers.

I dont have a problem if somewhere down the line €ircon change their approach - in a way that would indirectly (and we all know it would be a case of indirectly..) be positive for irish telecoms consumers. I cant say that the bad taste will completely wash out but i'd like to think that i can look at this objectively.

By the same token, whilst UTV is the current flavour - and i say again that i am a happy customer of theirs, they are motivated by the same factor ie. profit ...so theres nothing to say that it may seem that they will always be acting in our interests. Same applies for all commercially based entities.


Getting back to €ircon, in order for them to get to the point where they would change their approach and actually compete via providing what their customers want..they would need to take a serious hit. Now if ordinary and small business customers started dropping off like flies and signing up with the competition - for both regular telecoms and internet - then €ircon might feel the need to do something progressive for a change. In order to convince people that they should be looking at alternative telecoms providers, they need to know that €ircon is screwing them....simple as that. And its not just a case that they are aware of it, they have to be aware and sufficiently motivated to do something about it.

With this in mind, i hope that we all try our best to get friends/family to swap over to another provider - even if they are resellers..it doesnt matter.

Dustaz

Shabbyroad, Whether you believe it or not, When the ASAI asks for an ad to be pulled, it is pulled. They do not deal with clients, they deal with the agencies. Agencies always respect the ASAI's requests - not least because they can charge the cost of amending the ad onto the client.

So, realistically if not theoretically they DO have the power to ban.

Also they are not a proactive organisation. Ireland does not have (and needs) an organisation such as the BACC. but as i said, i do not think even they would persue eircom in this manner. Remember that these bodies regulate Advertising not businesses. They may persue the agency for continued infringements but i find it unlikely that they would.