Kewell - another Litmanen?

p.pete

Taking Jari Litmanen as an example - will the signing of Harry Kewell make much difference to Liverpool and the way we play.

Litmanen, like many before him was to be the final piece in the jigsaw. Fact is, most of our good results are based on defencive and not ofencive tactics. Litmanen was given massive wages to come in and complete the team but was left on the bench.

GH has a history of disdain towards flair players - Ginola was another example. Will Kewell be given the chance to make a difference?


BTW - looking forward to all the non pool fans comments as well - that is, if ye manage more than a one line put down. I don't mind pool being slagged but make an effort will ye;)

Sposs

He'll be a great sucess if Liverpool dont play him as a defender,if they actually start to use their wingers .ie kewell and finnain they could be dark horses for the title.

gandalf

Well I personally feel that you have got a very very good player at a bargain price. However since Hollier had his heart attack I don't feel he has been up to managing and I reckon he should step aside for Liverpools sake.

Hopefully Kewell doesn't go the same way as Litmanen, even as an Arsenal fan I have to recognise that Kewell is an extremely talented player and I used to watch out for the highlights of Leeds playing because watching what he could do with the ball was a delight.

Gandalf.

KdjaCL

Litamanen was on of the greatest players to play europena football but at Liverpool he wasnt used correctly and didnt look that good with them.
If they stick Kewell on the wing and try to play him to his strengths they will have a new edge but honestly with GH in charge i dont know what he will do with him.

kdjac

p.pete

Originally posted by KdjaC
Litamanen was on of the greatest players to play europena football but at Liverpool he wasnt used correctly and didnt look that good with them.

I disagree, I remember many an occasion when he would be brought on as a sub and he would start zipping loads of brilliant passes around the front.

It was as though all the other attacking player(s) weren't used to getting balls to feet and making little darting runs and general decent movement. If he was on the pitch more they would of had time to gel and it really would have been excellent. He's only 31 now - still younger than Keane.

KdjaCL

Umm you actually agreed with me
Being brought on as a sub is one way of not playing to someones strengths ,using him as a focal point and the main creator of all things attacking is his best use.
Fitting him into a disjointed team is possibly the best way to not play him to his strengths.


kdjac

kdevitt

Litmanen was a class player - but he fell out with Houllier after a minor incident at Melwood where Houllier felt his authority was being undermined. :rolleyes: (Litmanen was attempting to coach some of the younger players) His broken wrist he suffered didn't help either.

We got him a year or two too late I think - I honestly don't think the same will happen with Kewell, fingers crossed!:D

p.pete

Originally posted by KdjaC
Umm you actually agreed with me

Absolutely, the only thing I disagreed with was you saying that he didn't look good. All the rest was true, hopefully the same doesn't happen with Kewell, it would be a sin.

tHE vAGGABOND

yea liverpool need a new manager who can adapt his tactical systems..

if they stick with the frenchman its a battle for 4/5/6 again IMHO

Oh, and they need to get rid of heskey as he is a donkey, but that is another matter!

shotamoose

Got to agree with p.pete - Litmanen looked like a genius most times I saw him play for Liverpool. Of course we hardly ever got to see him, because Houllier, for reasons best known to himself, didn't see fit to play him much. It was a disgrace and is still the single biggest problem I have with Houllier, even more so than the dozens of crap signings and obsession with long-ball football. I fell genuinely sorry for Jari too as he seemed really hurt by his treatment.

Oh well. Kewell will probably be excellent but Liverpool will probably finish fourth again and maybe then Houllier will get the sack he deserves.

mike65

Sigh I'd sooner we did'nt say too much and kept our heads down! I just hope Kewell can live up to the fans expectations while not getting on the wrong side of Madam Houllier.

Mike.

PiE

Any disagreements between Houllier & Kewell and there will only be one winner... Kewell. Houllier may have lost his marbles but the board certainly haven't.

p.pete

Originally posted by PiE
Any disagreements between Houllier & Kewell and there will only be one winner... Kewell. Houllier may have lost his marbles but the board certainly haven't.

Unfortunately the board are very loyal and like to treat staff well - there is longstanding friendships there between GH and RP. I'm not sure HK's side would be taken on board as easily.

Eron

Kewell -HAS- to start, now way they are going to play Emelia Heskey instead of Harry Cool. I actualy think that because they got him for a steal that Jerry Houlier will not take him as seriously as if they spent 20million on him....

Big Ears

against crewe i think HK was used as a winger but on the right .for some reson has houlier been getting tips on how to play left wingers on the right side (duff and kennedy McCarthy used on the right side kennedy on a regular basis)

PiE

Originally posted by p.pete
Unfortunately the board are very loyal and like to treat staff well - there is longstanding friendships there between GH and RP. I'm not sure HK's side would be taken on board as easily.

If by Christmas Liverpool are still playing the same 1 dimensional football or Harry is obviously not being used properly and it comes down to Kewell or Houllier, Ged will be out on his ear.

They've given him plenty of resources and chances, this is surely his last and the board will not be so blinkered as to allow Kewell to leave after they got such a good deal on him.

KdjaCL

http://www.skysports.com/skysports/article/0,,7-1099049,00.html




WTF?


kdjac

mike65

"He's quite skilful when he comes across and causes problems for defenders when he drifts inside...."

Jesus H Christ! I dont want my wingers drifting insdie I want them to run themselves over the goal line just after they launch the perfect cross!

Mike.

KdjaCL

Liverpool formation

\ ............ /
\ .......... /
\ ........./
\ ......./
\ ...../
\../
Owen

(but pointier)

Seems to be the GH mentality.


kdjac

super_furry

Kewell another Litmanen? I don't think so. Litmanen couldn't get his game at Barcelona, couldn't get it at Liverpool and last season started just seven league games for Ajax. Litmanen was unfit for most of his Liverpool career (injured for all three Cup finals in 2000-2001) and when he was fit was obviously unable to cope with the pace of the Premiership.

p.pete

Originally posted by super_furry
when he was fit was obviously unable to cope with the pace of the Premiership.

What I saw of him made everyone around him look unfit. In his defence he wasn't ever given the chance to become match fit.

The Muppet

GH should be managing wimbledon instead of liverpool. The players from the great teams of the past must be embaressed to see the style of football played today. I doubt liverpool have one player today who would have held down a regular spot in the team of the late 70s early 80s. The blame for this is obvious for all to see and lies s quarely at GHs door. His tactics are Sh1te and his dealings in the transfer with a few exceptions have been very poor.

As a utd supporter i hope they keep Gh but as a football fan It is a shame to see such a great team reduced to the shambles they are today. Honestly how many current pool stars would get into either the arsenal or utd team.

I suppose some liverpool fans will think i am trying to stir things but honestly im not. That is my honest opinion and one that is shared by some of my friends which includes liverpool supporters

ella minnow pea

impartial but: Erm, Owen?? C'mon the guy doesn't score for 3 games and everyone gets shocked at his "dry spell"
if utd or arsenal play 442 he definatly would
and didn't Fergie want Harry Kewell? Wh6y, just to play him in the reserves??

The Muppet

IMO Mr. owen is vastly overated. What has he achieved in the past season? Did he set the world alight at the last world cup?There is no way he would be first choice striker at either Utd Or Arsenal. He has only one foot and he relies on hitting teams on the break with his pace. Defenders have realised how to play him and just stand off a yard or two to compensate.

You must believe all the hype printed about these overrated players. Do you not realise that as soon as England produce a half decent player the Tabloid media over there starts hyping them as world class . It happened with Beckham, Owen, and rooney is the latest victim.

As For Kewell as you appear to be suggesting that he was a good buy for liverpoll can he tell me exactly what he has achieved there. I dont know if UTD were in for him or not as unlike some I am not gullible enough to believe everything I read in the tabloids.

bort

its remarkable to hear lots of pool fans say that the summer signings have made them into real championship contenders. IMO a LOT more needs to be done to improve the team. I think it should start with buying a proper creative midfield player like Scholes. Gerrard is given waaay too much to do in the midfield where he is sometimes left to cover everything. With established wingers (ie. Kewell and someone else) and with a good attacking midfielder, Gerrard can be left to doing what he does best, controlling the centre pf the pitch.

I dont think theyre anywhere up to standard yet!

smemon

must agree with the muppet, GH is liverpool's weak link. they've got average players, including kewell and finnan, they dont perform consistently.

owen and gerrard are hyped up to be something they're not. carragher is one of the most defensive minded players i have ever seen, does he ever move forward?!

salif diao! well i just laugh and him and diouf. must be some of the worst signings ever. oh, but big emile. he's some player, 8 goals in 40 appearances or something. again, money well spent there GH. liverpool are an insult to soccer with their tactics. its like mark williams playing nothing but safety shots over and over until the opponent cracks.

The Muppet

they've got average players, including kewell and finnan,

Should someone tellSGH that Kewell plays on the left . When given the chance to sign a proven player in the premiership ie Anelka he declined and signed baros instead. The list is endless really and he must be in the last chance saloon.
It strikes me that he is a bit like hoddle in that he makes silly selections to play silly tactics so that on the off chance they work everyone will thinks he's a master tactician.

smemon

GH prides himself on signing cheap foreign imports. 5m for kewell, a couple for finnan, he wont take risks, ie. spend 15m on a quality striker. he buys in bulk from france,scandinavia and hopes one or two pay off.

i think he tries to copy arsenal and wenger. only he has no ability to spot quality players. he's spent 110m in 5 years. for that, he could have had, v.nistlerooy, beckham, nesta, geremi, duff, ronaldinho!!

instead he chose to bring diao, diouf, smicer, heskey, dudek, baros etc..

bort

Originally posted by smemon
he wont take risks, ie. spend 15m on a quality striker. he buys in bulk from france,scandinavia and hopes one or two pay off.

hehehe..... diouf was how much?
12 million?
money well spent methinks....

marct

I definitely agree that the Pool need a proper attacking central midfielder to play alongside Gerrard. Someone like Basturk or Yakin would really fit the bill.

Re. Owen. The press marvel at his dry spells as the dont come along that often. This is the player that was either highest scorer or joint highest scorer in the PL for three years in a row and would have finished 1 behind RVN if RVN didnt take penalties.

Re. Average players. OK there are some chumps with Diao, Heskey and Smicer coming readily to mind. The jury is definitely still out on Diouf but in GH's defence I dont think any of you maestros were arguing when he was destroying France in the WC. Then there is Baros 12 goals in 43 games with only 15 of these being starts. Three in five games internationally- now writing him off is just plain silly. With Kewell and Finnan, in fairness Muppet how can you call them average when they havent even played a competitive game yet?!? And Kewell got 17 goals last season- take the red blinkers off:rolleyes:

Re. Contenders. Right, anyone who reckons that these signings will make Liverpool championship contenders has'nt been to Anfield in the last 5 years! They are a definite step in the right direction but a mental shift is needed as well as more attack minded personnel. They could have a good season and anything can happen (Real Sociedad anyone??) but I remain to be convinced- but I wouldnt write off any of the big tems yet.

PS Carragher (bless 'im) never claimed to be able to attack. There is nothing wrong with being a good defender

The Muppet

With Kewell and Finnan, in fairness Muppet how can you call them average when they havent even played a competitive game yet?!?

I think you,ll find that it was not me that called these average players. In fact I made your exact point about kewell in my reply to lmnop saying that he has not been at pool long enought to judge him.

IMO finnan and kewell both have potential to be excellent signings particularly if the are going to be played in their natural positions. I,m sure youve noticed that so far GH has played kewell on the right which is hardly his best position.

Owen is a good striker but IMO not in the same class as henry ruud raul or ronaldo. In Fairness to him he does not have the quality around him as the others.

With regard to baros If GH had the choice between him and anelka on footballing terms I was surprised he didnt go for anelka as he had a proven record in the prem.

marct

Sorry Muppet- got you mixed up with Smemon. And I'd personally have gone for Anelka as well...but instead of Diouf rather than Baros. I really do think he's a bit special.

The Muppet

And I'd personally have gone for Anelka as well...but instead of Diouf rather than Baros. I really do think he's a bit special.

I wouldnt argue with that. Baros looked exciting in his early games scoring some excellent goals. It would make you wonder
why he has featured so little lately considering some of the team selections. Anelka is/was an excellent striker but i suppose transfer history played its part in the decision not to sign him.

smemon

finnan and kewell would be excellent players in a team like newcastle who love to roam forward and play attractive football.

playing for liverpool will ruin them. same way it has ruined diouf, heskey etc.. it's GH's fault liverpool are the way they are. why won't he take the handbrake off????

if liverpool get a 1-0 lead, they immediately sit back and counter attack. they have the players and ability to attack and score more goals, this is what annoys me.

marct

Originally posted by smemon
finnan and kewell would be excellent players in a team like newcastle who love to roam forward and play attractive football.

playing for liverpool will ruin them. same way it has ruined diouf, heskey etc.. it's GH's fault liverpool are the way they are. why won't he take the handbrake off????

if liverpool get a 1-0 lead, they immediately sit back and counter attack. they have the players and ability to attack and score more goals, this is what annoys me.

I was afraid that GH might try to turn Kewell into a left back alright.:D But GH has said himself that Liverpool have got to attack this season. I will reserve judgement but they are a step in the right direction. ie FORWARD!!

p.pete

I think GH is too busy trying to turn him into a right sided midfielder - what's that all about?

marct

Originally posted by p.pete
I think GH is too busy trying to turn him into a right sided midfielder - what's that all about?

I wouldnt read too much into it- GH is always messin about pre-season. And by all accounts Smicer is playing a blinder out there. Him and Heskey, thats all we need- wont someone make the bad men go away:p Im still in two minds whether I would prefer to see Kewell on the left or in the hole. What does everyone think?

kdevitt

As far as I'd heard, Kewell was bought to play on the right and in behind Owen + partner depending on tactics... the deal for Duff fell through, and Kewell has made it fairly clear he doesn't want to play out left... and before anyone starts saying Liverpool didn't have a chance of getting Duff, this came from a player with BR... personal terms had been agreed several weeks ago, Souness scuppered the deal... its Chelski's gain...

A lot of the players being used in pre-season are only being put in the shop-window... looks like Mellor is going to West Ham on loan.

Kewell had some good touches against Galatasaray - every time he received the ball he was looking to get forward, hopefully he can make a bit of a difference, Smicer & Heskey still looks crap imho, I swear he has photos of Houllier in a compromising position...

The Muppet

and Kewell has made it fairly clear he doesn't want to play out left...

This could go to the the heart of the problem at liverpool.
Surely the manager gets paid to judge a players best position and tactics for the team. If Its the players at liverpool who choose where they want to play its no wonder they are the shambles they are.

Suffice to say not many managers would let the player choose where they want to play particulaly if the players choice is to play out of position aka Kewell.

p.pete

Guess we'll have to wait to see where HK gets put when the season starts.

In what way are Liverpool a shambles at the moment? Against their own standards they have under achieved over the last few seasons but it's good to have high standards.

The main gripe is the style of football that we play but that is not something that turns the whole club into a shambles.

Ignoring charity shields and carling cups the trophies Liverpool have won over the last few seasons are the envy all but 3 teams in the English League - ManU and Arsenal being the other 2.

uRbaN

would love to see liverpool play attacking fluid football and finish where they did last year as opposed to playing what everyone now associates them now..as in one step forward, 11 men back.
At least it would show that critical error points are being addressed...

The Muppet

IMO they are a shambles becaus they are a shadow of what Liverpool should be. I,m sure like me you are old enoght to remember the glory days of liverpool when they played attacking football and were envied by the rest of div 1 as it was then. You could always look forward to an exciting attacking game of good football when they played .

Unfortunately This is no longer the case with their ultra defensive tactics. I understand you sticking up for you team publically but i have many friends who are liverpool fans and i know what they really think.

p.pete

Don't get me wrong, Liverpool should be doing a lot better. 14 years or so without the league is definitely not good enough by our standards.

Also the way we play football for the last few seasons has been less than entertaining. I won't even bother to stick up for these points as I would just show myself to be an idiot.

The club itself however is not in a state of shambles.

We have one of the best youth development systems in Europe - unfortunately not having a manager who is good at moving them to the first team.

We are one of the richest teams in England, having spent as much as any other team in the League over the last few seasons - unfortunately not having a manager who is spending this money wisely.

Attendances are high and there is plans well underway (planning permission granted) to move to a bigger stadium - without bankrupting ourselves like Arsenal.

We've managed to get rid of a lot of the players that were giving us the "spice boys" image - despite not managing to replace them with players of equal ability.

Finally like I said in a post a while ago, the silverware we have won over the last several seasons is third only to United and Arsenal.

You'll most likely read into this post and suggest GH be shown the door. You wouldn't be the first/last.

The Muppet

When i said they were a shambles i was referrring to their on pitch performanaces the last few years. I actually like Liverpool FC. Their older fans tend be knowledgeable less abu than the others because they have been where utd are now so are less envious. I would love to see liverpool being Uniteds main competition for the Major Honors but i can't see it happening under the current manager.

NIBBS

Jari Litmanen, reknowned across Europe as a great player, joins Liverpool and I'm finally worried after a number of years that they will actually mount a challenge for the League..............but what GH did to Litmanen was nothing short of a disgrace, how could you stick a player like him on the bench when you've got guys like Heskey out on the park, there's just no logic to it.......

will Kewell make a difference, the simple answer, IMO, no, he'll play a few games here and there and houlier will dismiss him to the bench, I really think this is the managers last year and then there will be a massive clearout at the end of the season - the good addition for you Pool fans this year is Finan, but that isn't a huge plus, the team certainly hasn't been strengthened by the addition of Kewell - scores 6 cracking goals a year and sits on his arse for the rest of the season, he just isn't interested in working hard for the team........I think they'll be hard pushed to get a champions league spot this year........sorry

p.pete

Thats fair enough so - certainly there is a strong argument that Liverpools on pitch performances have been a shambles.

Catanazio was a great style of football in its day (admittadly boring) but to try to use it in this day and age is a little short sighted. Italy had great success with it until teams copped on how to play against it. To think that that lesson wouldn't soon be remembered was a critical mistake.

I'm actually not of the opinion that GH should leave Liverpool. He may be suited to a different role within the club but I'm not sure which. Besides the football (which should really be the priority) he has done a lot of good things for the club. If a change of tactics is introduced then maybe we will be pleasantly surprised.

Bannor

Originally posted by NIBBS
Jari Litmanen, reknowned across Europe as a great player, joins Liverpool and I'm finally worried after a number of years that they will actually mount a challenge for the League..............but what GH did to Litmanen was nothing short of a disgrace, how could you stick a player like him on the bench when you've got guys like Heskey out on the park, there's just no logic to it.......

will Kewell make a difference, the simple answer, IMO, no, he'll play a few games here and there and houlier will dismiss him to the bench, I really think this is the managers last year and then there will be a massive clearout at the end of the season - the good addition for you Pool fans this year is Finan, but that isn't a huge plus, the team certainly hasn't been strengthened by the addition of Kewell - scores 6 cracking goals a year and sits on his arse for the rest of the season, he just isn't interested in working hard for the team........I think they'll be hard pushed to get a champions league spot this year........sorry

Complete bullsh!t.

Jari Litmanen was reknowned across Europe as you put it while he was a young player at Ajax.

Funnily enough he spent most of his time on the bench when he actually made it to the match day squad at Barcelona. Why is it than when he was told he could leave Barcelona that only Anderlecht, Fenerbahce and Liverpool made an approach to sign him? I guess he wasn't such a reknowned player across Europe! :rolleyes:

A couple of months after he joined Liverpool, he broke his wrist in an international game against England and missed the rest of the season because of the injury. 2001/2 was his only full season at Liverpool, he made 32 appearances (19 as substitute). In a squad with Fowler/Anelka, Heskey and Owen he was never going to play all the time.

Last season he started only 13 games for Ajax, and made 8 appearances as a substitute.

Liverpool or Gerard Houllier didn't do anything to Litmanen, they had to deal with the consequences of the player being over-played as a youngster.

I won't even comment on your insight into the workings of Liverpool - for your information we have never sacked a manager in the history of the club. As for Kewell, if you think he's only going to play a few games here and there you are deceiving yourself. And the best addition at Liverpool this summer isn't Finnan, he was signed as insurance of having an attacking right back. Houllier gambled on having Babbel available for last season it didn't happen and the team suffered as a result. The best addition is the coach, Christian Damiano.

p.pete

Originally posted by Bannor
for your information we have never sacked a manager in the history of the club.

Not entirely true. Many have been given the polite option of leaving or being sacked. The guy who was managing directly before Sir Bill was sacked (got us relegated the dastard). I'm not entirely sure of the circumstances of Souness and Evans leaving also - can anyone remember how they left?

bort

Originally posted by Bannor
Complete bullsh!t.

Jari Litmanen was reknowned across Europe as you put it while he was a young player at Ajax.

well he did win the champions league twice with Ajax but mneh whatever........

and he did go to liverpool at the age of 28 (the height of a players ability) but, again, whatever.....

Bannor

Originally posted by bort
well he did win the champions league twice with Ajax but mneh whatever........

and he did go to liverpool at the age of 28 (the height of a players ability) but, again, whatever.....

Just to be pedantic... Ajax won the champions league 1995, the previous time they won it was 1973 (if my memory serves me correct) when they beat Juventus, the team they lost the final to in 1996 but mneh whatever........

Litmanen was 29 pushing 30 when he joined Liverpool - he joined in January and his 30th birthday was in February, but, again, whatever.....

:rolleyes:

Bannor

Originally posted by p.pete
Not entirely true. Many have been given the polite option of leaving or being sacked. The guy who was managing directly before Sir Bill was sacked (got us relegated the dastard). I'm not entirely sure of the circumstances of Souness and Evans leaving also - can anyone remember how they left?

Up until the arrival of Shankly, it was the board who picked the team and not the manager. It was the first thing Shankly changed.

Souness wasn't pushed, he resigned immediately after losing to Bristol City in the FA Cup. Evans wasn't pushed either the decision to resign and leave the club was his alone - Moores had asked him to stay.