developing reclaim the streets

chewy

hi as ever looking for feedback on reclaim the streets ,did you go to the one in may ?

well the september one is coming up car-free day on 22 september , how do you recvkon we could develope the diea or have other actions apart from a partyy but in the same vain



there will be an open meeting to dicuss such thing at the cultivate center west essex street 730pm on weds 20 of august
please come along tell your friends

The Saint

Arm the protestors with riot gear and make it a fair fight:D

Zombrex

Originally posted by The Saint
Arm the protestors with riot gear and make it a fair fight:D

It certainly would be fun to pull out a large iron bar the next time a de-badged Garda come running at you with a club

"Say hello to my little friend"

Joking of course, I think our police force do a bang up job

(btw "Reclaim" isn't a protest.)

Sand

How about the RTS crowd trying to get from say Celbridge to Leixlip ( less than 2-3 miles apart) using our public transport system, to demonstrate how viable life is without cars?

DadaKopf

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Sand, shut up.

RTS has to solidify its strategy through more meetings like this.

On the agenda, specifically, should be a discussion on practical ways to get the idea across to the public, to make it everybody's protest. RTS is everybody's protest because it transcends political ideology and social divisions, it's about everyday life - but most poeple don't realise it. Most people still see a bunch of loony crusties, even though that's far from the reality today, so strategies have to be better developed to counter this. Perhaps this is due to an attitude adopted by those who protest (I'm one of those people) that contributes to the establishment of a "them and us" dynamic that effectively shuts people out.

Coinciding RTS with Car Free Day was an excellent move the last time because it legitimised it much more. Unfortunately, misinformation following the May 6th RTS persists so that has to be counteracted. Strategies, say, 'outreach' strategies, would be a good way to get the ideas/ideals/aspirations of RTS across, not just on the day but in the leadup. The idea is incredibly sensible and inspirational but sometimes the bumpf about it is alienating, idiosyncratic and non-factual. Fix it.

It's also vital that this year, there's a zero tolerance policy on organisations (in particular SWP) selling agitprop and merchandise. It betrays the movement.

Who is reclaiming the streets for who here?
The public road is there for a purpose which is to facilitate traffic, ie the movement of workers, their bosses, their goods and services.This is mainly done with cars and trucks, albeit with too many due to lack of sharing.

We live in a democracy whereby things are changed when there is a consistant demand for that change.
I say consistant because, an electorate could be mad at a government at some point , yet be fairly satisfied at another, so there might be no change.
I've no problem with the "reclaim the streets" existing as a movement , except their title is melodramatic and suggests that we are all suppressed here into an existance that we do not want. I do not think that is the case for the Vast majority.

It's up to the movement that styles itself as "reclaim the streets" to convince a majority to their way of thinking.
Again I have a couple of tasty hats here, to shake the pesto on if that happens.
mm

DadaKopf

We live in a democracy whereby things are changed when there is a consistant demand for that change.

Maybe you didn't notice but there are a lot of people not just in Ireland but in the world who have been consistently demanding change. Perhaps symbolised by RTS, that demand is for self-rule, or democracy, based on geniune consensus rather than the transfer of power from the general public to an elite few.

When you say 'reclaim the streets, you're referring to a complex event that at base is an exercise in reclaiming the power of the community which has been consistently eroded in recent decades throughout the world. RTS is the reclamation of public space for the reclamation of public power.

bonkey

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Maybe you didn't notice but there are a lot of people not just in Ireland but in the world who have been consistently demanding change.

No - I think he was pointing ouit that you are in the minority. The majority do not want change - if they did, you could have it without protests, violent clashes, etc. etc. etc.

Ergo, we must consider that your "lot of people" are still agitating for the wishes of a minority, in a democratic state....which validates the point that Man made.

It's also vital that this year, there's a zero tolerance policy on organisations (in particular SWP) selling agitprop and merchandise. It betrays the movement.

Zero tolerance, eh?

Would you accept a zero tolerance policy from the police on RTS activities? If not, then what right do you have to expect others to follow the rules you want to put in place for the environment you create while breaking the rules society demands you keep just in order to create that environment in the first place?

For a group who consistently refuses to comply with their legal organisational requirements (e.g. prior notification to the police) and who then have a large vocal minority (which seems to be the logic behind RTS overall ) complain about the police and authorities not tolerating their decision to disobey orders....surely a "zero tolerance" policy by RTS on anything is hyprocacy in the extreme?

jc

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Man
Who is reclaiming the streets for who here?
The public road is there for a purpose which is to facilitate traffic, ie the movement of workers, their bosses, their goods and services.This is mainly done with cars and trucks, albeit with too many due to lack of sharing.

From the London RTS site:

The car system steals the street from under us and sells it back for the price of petrol. It privileges time over space, corrupting and reducing both to an obsession with speed or, in economic lingo, "turnover". It doesn't matter who "drives" this system for its movements are already pre-determined.

However, later on we have:

Won't the streets be better without cars? Not if all that replaces them are aisles of pedestrianised consumption or shopping "villages" safely protected from the elements. To be against the car for its own sake is inane; claiming one piece as the whole jigsaw.

The struggle for car-free space must not be separated from the struggle against global capitalism - for in truth the former is encapsulated in the latter.

The streets are as full of capitalism as of cars and the pollution of capitalism is much more
insidious.

At first the people stop and overturn the vehicles in their path... they are avenging themselves on the traffic by decomposing it into its inert original elements.

Next they incorporate the wreckage they have created into their rising barricades: they are recombining the isolated inanimate elements into vital new artistic and political forms. For one luminous moment, the multitudes of solitudes that make the modern city come together in a new kind of encounter, to make a people.

The streets belong to the people: they seize control of the city's elemental matter and make it their own.

So the streets are being reclaimed by the people for the people. However, this is part of a larger struggle against global capitalism according to the site. The means by which global capitalism may be destroyed isn't discussed on the site.

Meh

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Maybe you didn't notice but there are a lot of people not just in Ireland but in the world who have been consistently demanding change.

Actually, I didn't notice. I didn't see any RTS candidates getting elected in the recent general election. I haven't seen more than a few hundred people at any RTS protest in Dublin.

Originally posted by SkepticOne
However, this is part of a larger struggle against global capitalism according to the site. The means by which global capitalism may be destroyed isn't discussed on the site.

Well then at that public meeting spoken about above, a name change of the organisation should be proposed to something like " The movement for the universal overthrow of capitalism " and they should put foward candidates for election on that platform.
They should in a democracy, get used to the idea of going from door to door and putting their case to the people whose minds they have to change.
By not doing that, they are suggesting to me that, they'd rather ignore everyone else and would prefer to force their agenda.
Thats not a concept that ties in very well with the notion of a people being free.
If they get people elected, they have suffecient support for to have the power to impliment perhaps some of their agenda, Mildred fox style.
I doubt very much though, if there will ever be enough widespread support for that to happen, the devil we know, being better than the devil we don't, and all to that.
mm

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Man
Well then at that public meeting spoken about above, a name change of the organisation should be proposed to something like " The movement for the universal overthrow of capitalism " and they should put foward candidates for election on that platform.
They should in a democracy, get used to the idea of going from door to door and putting their case to the people whose minds they have to change.

It would be something to raise at the meeting, I suppose.

I suspect that many regard the system to be at fault. Surely, they might argue, people can't want western liberal consumerism.

BKtje

RTS seems to be to be just one big party (impression ive gotten from friends who went to it to get drunk). All i want is for a better public transport system so that traffic congestion is reduced. I dont think the streets need to be reclaimed as such.

but in the world who have been consistently demanding change

But if there was a high enough demand something would have been done about it through the polictical system surely?

colinsky

you've got to rethink what you are doing with the event and how it represents what you want to accomplish. right now, the claims and the actions are inconsistent.

for instance, by blocking off the street you are not only blocking private cars, you're blocking public buses. yet, increased used public transportation IS the solution to clearing off the streets for pedestrian use, and you should be supporting this. so at the very least, leave the bus lanes clear.

rather than fighting with the city, cooporate with them as much as possible. for instance, look at the last (official) car-free day -- it was miserable. only two small streets closed for half the day. you should have tried to coordinate with this to make it a much bigger event. Also, announce the locations further in advance -- this will get people other than those running to event to know about it and plan to show up. you folks are already convinced; you need to get the others there.

DadaKopf

by bonkey:
Zero tolerance, eh?

Etc...

I'm sorry, my language was badly chosen. Look, RTS is a non-commercial *and* trans-party-political event and it's simply not appropriate for political parties to sell merchandise. Since RTS is a non-hierarchical event, it is the responsibility of all participants as individuals and members of a collective who are committed to the event to make sure this doesn't go on.

by Man:
Well then at that public meeting spoken about above, a name change of the organisation should be proposed to something like " The movement for the universal overthrow of capitalism " and they should put foward candidates for election on that platform.

They should in a democracy, get used to the idea of going from door to door and putting their case to the people whose minds they have to change.

RTS is a genuine attempt to reconceptualise politics and self-rule (democracy). Clearly, you assume that civic-republicanism with representative democratic party-politics is the only way to organise society. In this country, as in most others, 'civic' as been excised from republicanism, 'democracy' has been excised from representation and 'politics' has been excised from party. Clearly, there are other models worth pursuing, such as direct democracy, consensual democracy. Perhaps most importantly, power has to be reformulated because it's the transformation of power and subsequent abuses of it which fuel the ideas and aims of the global justice movement, of which RTS is part. RTS is an event which experiments with alternative conceptions of civic, democratic politics.

by Man:
... they are suggesting to me that, they'd rather ignore everyone else and would prefer to force their agenda.

Thats not a concept that ties in very well with the notion of a people being free.

So you think all good ideas emerge through spontaneous popular consciousness? Think again. Any good idea has to struggle to get heard. You've got to decide whether RTS is a good or bad idea yourself. Just because it's still a fringe movement doesn't logically imply it's a bad or illigitimate idea - that's like saying pop music is great music because it's popular and alternative music is crap because it's alternative. Great argument.

RTS is about being free. We have a Constitutionally enshrined right to protest - a fundamental freedom - so we use it. We're not forcing an agenda, we're encouraging people to participate in something we think is pretty deadly. I've never once seen anyone complaining about the massive disruption caused by funfares on Merrion Square or by the St. Patrick's Day parade. Obvioulsy lots of people think those are deadly, too - I don't so I don't go but I don't complain about it. I'm happy people are using the streets Some people just have a political antipathy to ideas like RTS because they're prejudiced. Anyway...

As I said in the above paragraph, RTS is about reformulating politics by reasserting public power. Voting is an act of disenfranchisement because it is the transfer of power from the many to the few. RTS's reformulation puts power back in the hands of the general public. To me, and many others, this is freedom.

by colinsky:
rather than fighting with the city, cooporate with them as much as possible. for instance, look at the last (official) car-free day

Was't that the day of the last RTS?

by SkepticOne
I suspect that many regard the system to be at fault. Surely, they might argue, people can't want western liberal consumerism.

The fact is that our current lifystyles are unsustainable and unhealthy. People are dying on the roads, more people are getting leukaemia because of car emissions, Dublin isn't pleasant to walk around anymore because of traffic, pollution, crime, less civic spaces. Much of this is the result of government policies that have put efficiency and competitiveness ahead of social health. We might now be able to choose between 20 different types of cheese at our local Tesco, but less and less of us are sure if we'll have a job next month. Moreover, public power is diminishing, our government has been severely criticised for measures taken to make them less accountable and because of public cynicism and apathy, compined with a lack of imagination due to consumerism, we have no viable political alternative. If this is how 'great; western consumerism gets, I want out.

Finally, Man seemed to ask whether RTS is a movement in itself or actually a "movement for the universal overthrow of capitalism". RTS is a complex idea but essentially, it's the distillation of a number of different, similar thoughts and movements which have developed over time that are of, you could say, the leftist persuasion. RTS is an exercise, an idea that captures much of what the global justice movement is about. RTS is not separate from the global justice movement so why should it be renamed? The name says what it does. It's part of the global justice movement - it brings together many related strands of thought and transforms them into action.

Meh

We have a Constitutionally enshrined right to protest - a fundamental freedom - so we use it.

Don't the Socialist Workers also have a Constitutionally enshrined right to protest?

We're not forcing an agenda...

Just curious -- if the SWP turn up and start handing out leaflets, how will you stop them? What exactly does "zero tolerance" mean? Nasty looks? Harsh language? Violence? Who made the decision that the SWP weren't welcome?

Clearly, you assume that civic-republicanism with representative democratic party-politics is the only way to organise society.

Not at all. There is plenty of room for independent candidates in our political system. 14 independents won seats in the last general election -- nearly 10%. Politics in this country is not restricted to members of political parties alone.

chewy

you suggested using better was to get our genuine message across any ideas?

chewy

one part of the idea of reclaim the streets is to have a non-commercial zone (can't think of the other phrase right now)
autonomous

so swp or the pds or whoever can come down set up a stall and give out information for free, but they are advised as is the idea of this once yearly event not to sell there info which is what they did last may to some peoples displeasure, we'll try nad make sure that doesn't happen again

giving out information for free is a vital part of social politics


one cyclist guy was also selling his zine nobody bothered him but that does show an inconsistancy and i think imho that you would have to ask him if wish to spread his zine about to give it out for free that day too, it be worth it for the promotion( dame capitalist like word)

or you could trade (something other then currency)

don't ya hate it when people have the answers to your nasty gripes:)

DadaKopf

Originally posted by chewy
you suggested using better was to get our genuine message across any ideas?

I'm still thinking about it and am reading the mailing list.

The main problem, still, is that no one knows what it's about. Reclaim the streets, but 'reclaim the streets from who?' or 'reclaim the streets for who'? RTS, in this country at least, has to explicity state the reasons and aims of the event. To me, as far as literature goes, this means well researched articles, fact boxes etc which justify RTS - in particular, within the Irish context. They could cite studies and research conducted which may even have made their way into the national press - people like what's familiar and it would make the whole thing more convincing in the eyes of critics - which is just about everybody.

I suppose one thing I could suggest is for a sustained RTS campaign up until the 22nd. (I'm thinking as I type here...) Maybe activists could set up little info stalls at the top of Grafton Street to hand out literature (for free of course) and talk to people. The experience would be as good for the RTSers as much as everyone else.

A barter market could be a good idea. Reclaim work and trade, re-examine value. It could even become a semi-regular thing.

As far as locations go, they seem fine to me, but I would like to see a protest in a pedestrianised, highly commercialised pseudo-public-space like Temple Bar or a shopping centre.

Sand

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Sand, shut up.

Why dont you chain yourself to a tree about it?

And take a peek at http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46807 .

On the agenda, specifically, should be a discussion on practical ways to get the idea across to the public, to make it everybody's protest.

Yap to be honest - your response to a practical challenge is to tell me to shut up. Thats grand/predictable, but then you go on about finding practical ways to get RTS across? Never mind, you cant expect much better from RTS I guess.

So the streets are being reclaimed by the people for the people. However, this is part of a larger struggle against global capitalism according to the site. The means by which global capitalism may be destroyed isn't discussed on the site.

It is very Life of Brian though isnt it? What has capitalism ever done for us? What have cars ever done for us?

As I said in the above paragraph, RTS is about reformulating politics by reasserting public power. Voting is an act of disenfranchisement because it is the transfer of power from the many to the few. RTS's reformulation puts power back in the hands of the general public. To me, and many others, this is freedom.

How? The RTS crowd talk an awful load of waffle but whats their immediate policy? Will they ban cars immediately, phase them out, or tax them to the point where they are unviable? Will the police and public services be allowed to have cars? Doctors? Taximen? Will haulage corporations and delivery trucks still be allowed to operate in the city? Will any steps be taken to revise public transport ? What steps? What ideas do they have beyond raising taxes? When it comes to preventing commercialisation of public space what does this mean exactly? Does it mean corporations will not be able to invest in areas as a form of indirect advertising? Will advertising - signs etc - actually be banned from public areas? Will areas like Temple Bar be banned or nationalised for want of a better word? When exactly will RTS get around to toppling the WTO/WorldBank/Global capitalism? What concrete measures and steps are they taking to ensure it occurs on schedule?

Less waffle and vague extremely long term aspirations please.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by DadaKopf
The main problem, still, is that no one knows what it's about. Reclaim the streets, but 'reclaim the streets from who?' or 'reclaim the streets for who'?

I don't know what it is about. I've heard your and other's opinions about what it is about. It seems to be something that everyone can project their idiology on to provided it is vaguely left wing.

These questions have been asked on this forum but as far as I can see remain unanswered.

I'm amazed that several protests can be held without anyone knowing what they are protesting about.

DadaKopf

How? The RTS crowd talk an awful load of waffle but whats their immediate policy? Will they ban cars immediately, phase them out, or tax them to the point where they are unviable? Will the police and public services be allowed to have cars? Doctors? Taximen? Will haulage corporations and delivery trucks still be allowed to operate in the city? Will any steps be taken to revise public transport ? What steps? What ideas do they have beyond raising taxes? When it comes to preventing commercialisation of public space what does this mean exactly? Does it mean corporations will not be able to invest in areas as a form of indirect advertising? Will advertising - signs etc - actually be banned from public areas? Will areas like Temple Bar be banned or nationalised for want of a better word? When exactly will RTS get around to toppling the WTO/WorldBank/Global capitalism? What concrete measures and steps are they taking to ensure it occurs on schedule?

Yep, all valied questions which RTS tries to open up for the imagination. Well done, you're getting the hang of things.

DadaKopf

Skeptic: go back and read the other RTS threads again. Or read No Logo if you haven't already.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Skeptic: go back and read the other RTS threads again. Or read No Logo if you haven't already.

If the object of the protest hasn't been defined, how am I to judge the relevance of No Logo to this particular protest? What are the demands of the protesters? Does it simply depend on who turns up?

DadaKopf

Well, theres a chapter on Reclaim the Streets for one thing...

Sand

Ill save you the bother Skeptic, No Logo is all about the evils of corporations infiltrating their brands into our daily lives turning us into a nation of consumer zombies.

And theres a line on how local governments dont enforce existing domestic laws on foreign multinational factories.

Generally Corporations=Evil, People who agree with No Logo=Good.

The relevance to No Logo is probably to do with the overall left wing slant of the book and with RTS being generally a fairly vague left wing rally disguised as a street party. Their ideas are so unpopular theyve got to hide them behind meaningless slogans now.

Yep, all valied questions which RTS tries to open up for the imagination. Well done, you're getting the hang of things.

Well Im glad you and the RTS lads have spent enough time to have figured out some answers. Where do I sign up to get the RTS running things, rebels without a clue?

sovtek

Originally posted by Sand
Their ideas are so unpopular theyve got to hide them behind meaningless slogans now.

The fact that RTS is a worldwide movement is a further testament to your unbiased assertion.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Well, theres a chapter on Reclaim the Streets for one thing...

"An end to the car in cities"
"An end to consumerism"
"An end to capitalism"

Are these the demands? I'm deliberately leaving out the rational for the demands. I want to stick to what is to be achieved by the protest so that when people turn up they can know exactly what the end goals are.

Originally posted by DadaKopf

RTS is a genuine attempt to reconceptualise politics and self-rule (democracy). Clearly, you assume that civic-republicanism with representative democratic party-politics is the only way to organise society. In this country, as in most others, 'civic' as been excised from republicanism, 'democracy' has been excised from representation and 'politics' has been excised from party. Clearly, there are other models worth pursuing, such as direct democracy, consensual democracy. Perhaps most importantly, power has to be reformulated because it's the transformation of power and subsequent abuses of it which fuel the ideas and aims of the global justice movement, of which RTS is part. RTS is an event which experiments with alternative conceptions of civic, democratic politics.

I don't assume anything about the merit of what you seem to be proposing at all.
I'm just posing the question as to how you intend to persuade the majority of the public to come round to your way of thinking.
I'd have thought talking to them would be a good step and if they don't agree, what do you then?? you hardly force your opinions on them like the way, it seems the RTS movement thinks capitalism is?? To do that would be a version of the pot calling the kettle black.
I'm just rather skeptical that your proposals are going to wash, with a majority of people who currently like things the way they are.

So you think all good ideas emerge through spontaneous popular consciousness? Think again. Any good idea has to struggle to get heard. You've got to decide whether RTS is a good or bad idea yourself. Just because it's still a fringe movement doesn't logically imply it's a bad or illigitimate idea - that's like saying pop music is great music because it's popular and alternative music is crap because it's alternative. Great argument.

Well then off you go to the meeting mentioned at the start,and propose to the floor that, you canvass and engage the public in a debate , door to door on your proposals.
If your ideas aren't popular after that, you cannot deny people the right to their opinion on them.

I've never once seen anyone complaining about the massive disruption caused by funfares on Merrion Square or by the St. Patrick's Day parade.

Well , I don't know if you are aware but the local authorities have to give notice in the papers in order to close those streets on those occasions and the Gardaí are always informed and police the occasions.

Voting is an act of disenfranchisement because it is the transfer of power from the many to the few.

I'm sorry, but I was starting to like your diverse opinions( but not necessarilly agree with most of them ) on how the world should work untill I read that line.
Who is anyone to make a sweeping statement like that??
It rather questions a lot of peoples intelligence.
mm

DadaKopf

Well , I don't know if you are aware but the local authorities have to give notice in the papers in order to close those streets on those occasions and the Gardaí are always informed and police the occasions.

My point was people don't start foaming at the mouth that these things block traffic in the city, too. The immediate bone of contention is that one is legally sanctioned, while the other one is spontaneous. No one's disputing it. People are disputing people's political rights to politically legitimate protest, which is a constitutional assurance.

Perhaps because they generally happen on bank holidays.

People are disputing people's political rights to politically legitimate protest, which is a constitutional assurance.

I do recall the farmers driving their tractors into Dublin and several towns across Ireland in a very well organised protest.
They weren't denied the right to do that, despite the city centre traders giving out about it.
Theres no need for anarchy in protest. There is a need to be clever about the way you protest though, for it is those that are clever about their protest who get people en masse behind them as they strike a chord not only from what they are saying , but by the way they are saying it.
Just more food for thought for your meeting.
mm