Time and patience running out for Houllier.

Sajan

This is definitely the most important 3 months of Gerard Houllier's managerial career. Failure to "keep the fans on the edge of there seats" will see the frenchman make an early exit from Anfield i'm predicting. Despite the confidence Rick Parry possesses in Houllier, the growing pressure on the board from the fans regarding results will be too much for the board to bare.

The Christiano Ronaldo move to United will really get the goat of some liverpool fans using myself as an example. It has been reported that Houllier wanted the move to go ahead next summer as he was holding out for Djribil Cisses possible move to Anfield. I really wonder if we need another striker. Sure Heskey hasn't set the World on fire and same goes for Diouf. But these are two players that Houllier signed at very high prices so it is his own fault that they are underachieving. Diouf may need time still to adapt to his role in the team, as I dont think anyone really knows what position he is going to play in from one week to the next.

The arrival of Harry Kewell is a major boost for the creative aspect of the team as it solves the very obvious LEFT sided problem of the midfield. But it looks like Kewell will be starting on the right which in my opinion really defeats the purpose of him coming to the squad as it not only pushes him out of his natural, not preffered position but unsettles Diouf as at times I thought he showed real talent on the right last season.

Maybe it is an overreaction but I have been in full support of Ged's managerial decisions up until this summer but questions really have to be asked. It is hard to put use Ferguson as an example cause everyone knows how good of a manger Ferguson is but a little more determination shown by Houllier would be a favourable change for the good.
I really hope he can prove me wrong by steering them to the title. But it certainly wont be easy.

Bannor

I think you're over-reacting and don't agree that it's the most important three months of Houllier's career at Liverpool.

Man Utd paid £12.24M for Ronaldo, Liverpool paid £6M for Le Tallec and Sinama-Pongolle. Is Christian Ronaldo four times the better player than either of the French kids, I don't think so. Ronaldo was never going to be joining Liverpool next year - Man Utd have first option on Sporting Lisbon's players. It'll be interesting to see how he copes with the media pressure of the #7 jersey at Man Utd. He's certainly a player for the future but will Fergie protect him as he did Giggs when he was young?

As for Djibril Cisse and Jean-Alain Boumsong, Guy Roux has said that so long as he is manager at Auxerre they won't be leaving. Acording to a guy who plays golf with Jacques Crevoisier, Roux is stepping down as manager of Auxerre at the end of the forthcoming season and wants to keep hold of his star players until then. This is also the reason why Philippe Mexes has resolved his contract dispute with Auxerre and said he'll stay at the club for this season.

For the most part, Kewell is essentially going to play a free role, he'll appear on the left, right and centre of the pitch. Houllier doesn't use the orthodox 4-4-2 formation so Kewell is going to be confined to a wing.

In Houllier's preferred system the width is provided by the attacking full backs (Riise,Finnan,Babbel,Vignal). The wide midfielders tuck in so that the full backs have space to get forward.

When in possession, there is some variation in midfield depending on the personnel used.

A three man central midfield (Gerrard/Diao, Hamann/Biscan, Murphy/Cheyrou) and a deep lying creative player (Kewell/Le Tallec/Smicer) plays a free role behind the forwards.

_________________Kirkland________________
__________Henchoz_______Hyypia__________
Finnan______________^________________Riise
|___________________|___________________|
|________________Hamann________________|
|___Gerrard_____________________Murphy__|
|______________________________________|
|_________________Kewell________________|
|___________________.|__________________|
V___________________V__________________V
____________Owen_______Heskey___________

In a second variation of the system there are two creative wide players e.g. Diouf and Kewell who both can cut in from the wings to support the forwards.

_________________Kirkland________________
__________Henchoz_______Hyypia__________
Finnan______________^________________Riise
|___________________|___________________|
|________________Hamann________________|
|Kewell_____________________________Diouf|
|_____\__________Gerrard___________/_____|
|______\_________________________/______|
|_______^______________________^_______|
V______________________________________V
____________Owen_______Heskey___________

An advantage of having Diouf and Kewell swap wings is that rather than having two players on each wing (full back and wide midfielder) who are going to look to cross the ball. The attacking midfielder carries the threat of cutting inside and being able to shoot with the ball being on their favoured foot - much more difficult for a fullback to defend against. It's a tactic used by Arsenal with considerable success - Overmars and Pires are both right footed and played on the left wing, the reason they both scored so many goals for Arsenal.

Both variations of the system have been used throughout the pre-season by Liverpool. In fact they have been used for the past few seasons but because of the personnel involved the system hasn't worked as it was designed.

When Babbel got ill we lost the attacking right back, this was the reason for signing Xavier. Xavier and Wright were offloaded because Babbel was expected to be back last season, it didn't happen so we were stuck with the solid but non-adventurous Carragher. Hence the cries of "Liverpool have no width". Houllier signed Finnan to sort the problem once and for all.

Due to the arrival of Finnan, Kewell and LeTallec, the pieces are now in place to develop the system, reason enough to be optimistic for the forthcoming season. Now we need the strikers to be more clinical with the chances created and those that have written Liverpool off will be eating their words.

super_furry

An excellant post Bannor, and it's pretty much 100% spot-on.

GuanYin

All very well if he has Henchoz, Hypia, Finnan, Gerrard and most importantly Hamann available for the majority of the season.

I sincerely doubt this (on past evidence) and this will be liverpools undoing. Liverpool possibly didn't need a striker but they definitely, without question need quality cover for hamann. When he's gone they are a totally different team, for the worse.

I don't think they have adequate cover for the centre back pairing either (Carragher isn't good enough) alhough rumour is Ayala may be bought from Valencia for this.

Finally, another striker, while the least important of the players 'pool need to mount a challenge is still required. Diou is seeminly a jack of all trades, master of none and despite the managers incomprehensible love triangle with Heskey and the left wing (we are talking McCarthy and Harte at centre back for levels of obsessive stubborn stupidity) I can only hope that he will be cover for Baros and Owen.

If liverpool buy another striker, hopefully it won't come to that.

Bannor

I think that we'll see Hamann's role being reduced this season. Biscan is being given the chance to stake his claim and if he can play anything like he did when he first arrived then Hamann will have trouble getting to a first team place when he returns at the end of November.

Biscan played Keane and Vieira off the pitch in two of his first games for the club - he had the holding role and it gave Hamann the kick up the ass that he needed. After that Hamann played to his potential in the holding role and Biscan was subjected to cameo appearances in the wide midfield positions or at centre half.

When Hamann returns from his injury, he'll have around 18 months left on his contract - He doesn't want a new contract with the club so Houllier will look to sell him. If Hamann continues to insist that he will only leave on his own terms he will face the prospect of plying his trade in the reserves for the rest of his career at Anfield. That being the case he can kiss goodbye to his international career and any hope of dictating terms to Bayern with a bosman move.

In a way the injury could be a blessing in disguise for Liverpool. Biscan will get a chance to make the position his and John Welsh will also have a better chance of making some appearances for the first team. If those two prove themselves then the whole Hamann issue could be resolved in the January transfer window.

It looks like Ayala is being lined up as cover for Henchoz. I'm not convinced that Henchoz is fully recovered from his injury or that he will - at one point it was thought that he would have to retire because of it, so unless it's a miracle recovery he won't be able to play every game as has before.

Heskey was on the left wing because we didn't have players in the squad to cover the position. In 2000/1 we had options like Barmby, Berger, Murphy, Riise and Smicer for the wide positions. In 2001/2, we were restricted to Murphy and Smicer due to sales and injuries - hence Heskey and Anelka played wide roles. And last season we had Diouf and Cheyrou added to the squad but both needed time to adapt. This season we have more quality options for the wide positions than ever before : Cheyrou, Diouf, Kewell, Le Tallec, Murphy and Smicer.

Sajan

So you dont see this as very important times for Houllier. What about Owen hinting at a move?

Dr Bolouswki

If Houllier does go - should Bannor replace him?

he get's my vote.

Big Ears

Bannor u realy know ur stuff except i believe this is make or brake for houlier if he isnt in the top 3 around christmas his ass will see the door.i can only see a 5th or 6th place finish for liverpool this season but u never no. this is gona be 1 hell of a season.

eyerer

i think owen will leave, rumour is cisse will be his replacement
i don't see liverpool winning soon enough for him to stay and i think he'll leave even if they do win, maybe a little later though

good posts bannor
hopefully biscan comes good, hes supposed to be a midfielder so maybe he'll do well when he gets to play there

hopefully heskey and smicer can keep up their pre-season form, but i'm doubtful to be honest

johnor

I dont think Fergie has anything to prove at Utd. I mean ok, he has sold 2 big names and replaced them with untested youths but he has always made tough choices like this and they seem to pay off time and time again..Also i think utd can afford to spend more then liverpool as 1) they have recieved more cash and 2) they have the money from champions league!


I reckon GH could be in his last season if he continues to rotate his squad in the silly ways he did last year....never know tho he mite retain the 3 handled cup if he's lucky

jonno

I think from the way GH is talking that he will be adopting two or three systems this season. Two of these have been mentioned above by Bannor. The other will be switching Diouf and Kewell on the wings if cutting inside isn't working out. As Kewell said when he joined - he was happy with the way the boss wanted to play him in the team and then a few weeks later he said that he enjoys playing on the right because he can cut inside.

As for the 4-3-1-2 system, I think that could be employed alot as well this season depending on the opposition. An added dimesion of this is to use the wing backs strategy which is what Gh had on his mind when buying Finnan. As Bannor said, 'the solid' Carragher isn't his first choice right back. He had to play him there because he had noone else.

I also agree that Hamann is on the way out. Biscan's natural position is a defensive midfielder despite alot of people blasting GH for playing him out of position in midfield when they should have been blasting his decision to play him as a centre half.

I don't think Owen will leave. Granted he has said things that might suggest that but I think he will stay put. However if he does go then I will be very disappointed and will start to seriously back a revolt on GH

YNWA

Bannor

Originally posted by Sajan
So you dont see this as very important times for Houllier. What about Owen hinting at a move?

Listening to what Parry and Moores have to say about Houllier, his future at the club is not dependant on being top of the table at Christmas, or winning the league this year. Houllier is a meticulous planner, he has been building a team for the future and he will be given the chance to achieve success with the team.

All the stories of Houllier having only this season to prove himself are generated by the media. A classic example of how fickle the people that voice such opinions are is Rodney Marsh. After the trip to the Far East, he declared that Liverpool would be Premier League Champions 2003/4. Two weeks ago the team drew with Ajax and lost to Galatasaray in the Amsterdam tournament - Mr.Marsh voiced the opinion that Liverpool had gone backwards and that Michael Owen should jump ship now! The latest is Ron Atkinson backing Liverpool to win the league this season, no doubt he'll have changed his tune now that Man Utd have Christian Ronaldo.

Owen worried time is running out
Paul Eaton
Michael Owen is worried time could be running out on his dream of winning the Premiership title with Liverpool.

The Reds' striker is desperately hoping this season could finally be the one which sees the league championship come back to Anfield, but he knows that with each passing campaign his chances of celebrating the biggest triumph in English football are receeding.

Owen said: "There is an extra significance to this season. We want to reach the top and win the league.

"You don't get a million and one chances as a manager or a player to do that and we need to do it quite soon. Everyone wants this season to be THE season. Players only have a short shelf life.

"I have been playing for six to seven years now and am probably halfway through my career without winning the league.

"You think it is going to be next year or maybe the one after that and, suddenly, the time has gone."

This is the report on which the Owen speculation has been based. Can anybody tell me what was the question that Michael Owen was asked? The thing about the tabloids is that they twist words and quotes to fit their story or agenda.

Sajan

The same Michela Owen quotes were on the Liverpool official website. So I guess they have some significance.

p.pete

Originally posted by Sajan
The same Michela Owen quotes were on the Liverpool official website. So I guess they have some significance.

The quotes may be true but journalists like to make stories out of things and have a habbit of making them into something more interesting - just doing their job:rolleyes:

Is there any truth on the rumour that we have first option on Cisse - but only until a certain date? I heard recently that this option will soon run out and that he is on Chelseas wish list. They will have no trouble paying the full asking price - so unless the player actually wants to hold out and move to pool he would be another one lost.

Bannor

The fact that the editor of the official website used the story on the site on a pre-season Sunday isn't really that significant. It goes to show that there were no real news stories about at the time.

The stories that appear on the site are not vetted by anyone at Anfield/Melwood. Remember the Danny Murphy story earlier this summer? A weekend tabloid published an 'exclusive' interview with Murphy, an interview which never took place and contained inflamatory comments by Murphy. The official site picked up the story and published it - Did that make the story official? The following Monday morning the first story published by the site was Murphy's denial of making the comments. Did the tabloid in question contest Murphy's claim? No - could the story just have been a space filler because there was no real news to report?

smemon

spot on with the formation. but its too easy to play against. all you have to do is double up on the wing backs and shut them out of the game. force them inside then switch the play.

this is exactly what happened pool last season, the wing backs dont hug the touchlines. risse is a class act when he's attacking but liverpool dont seem to give him the freedom he needs.

celtic play the exact same formation and for me it works for one-off occasions or 2-legged ties. over a season you'll be exposed.

p.pete

Originally posted by smemon
spot on with the formation. but its too easy to play against. all you have to do is double up on the wing backs and shut them out of the game. force them inside then switch the play.

Which formation? he gave 2 and as jonno mentioned there is a third (although he didn't draw a picture so you might have missed that;) )

Bannor

Originally posted by smemon
spot on with the formation. but its too easy to play against. all you have to do is double up on the wing backs and shut them out of the game. force them inside then switch the play.

It's not that easy to play against - Real Madrid use a similar system.

_________________Casillas________________
____________Hierro_______Helguera________
Salgado_____________^______________Carlos
|___________________|___________________|
|________________Makelele________________|
|___Figo___________________________Guti__|
|______________________________________|
|_________________Zidane________________|
|______________________________________|
V______________________________________V
_____________Raul________Ronaldo_________

Not many teams have a good record against them - Bayern Munich are the only club that come to mind, their record against Real is very impressive.

eyerer

Originally posted by Bannor
It's not that easy to play against - Real Madrid use a similar system.

_________________Casillas________________
____________Hierro_______Helguera________
Salgado_____________^______________Carlos
|___________________|___________________|
|________________Makelele________________|
|___Figo___________________________Guti__|
|______________________________________|
|_________________Zidane________________|
|______________________________________|
V______________________________________V
_____________Raul________Ronaldo_________

Not many teams have a good record against them - Bayern Munich are the only club that come to mind, their record against Real is very impressive.

no beckham in your lineup? :eek:

surely theres a mistake j/k

p.pete

Originally posted by eyerer
no beckham in your lineup? :eek:

surely theres a mistake j/k

He ain't played any competitive matches for them yet so it remains to be seen what kind system would be used with Beckham.

egan007

THe Line up above is ideal - the problem is depth in the squad - cover for the back is still a HUGE issue

marct

Egan007, I was thinking that myself but with Carra and Babbel we should be fine. And, hopefully, there will be no bloody Traore!!:D

Sajan

What they need to teach Traore is not to be diving in all the time. He is a very quick defender. I think he will come good. I can see most of the players coming good. But not in the near future. Thats why I think the pressure is really on Houllier. And the statement abot Parry and Moores alloeing Houllier all the time in the world may be correct. But if the numbers dont add up due to lack of income and ticket sales they may be left with no choice to change things up.

irishgeo

Houllier knows what the fans and the club want which is the league title anything else is failure. The team has come along but last year were found out and things didnt look to pretty.

This year however houllier has thrown caution to the wind and has gone all out for attacking football. He knows this is his last change and anything less the league will see him resign from Liverpool.

Whether he will last the season is a matter of debate but rumours state the christmas will be a review point for the season so far. Liverpool have a lot to lose as Owen is stalling on a new deal and lots of players are unhappy with the tactics beeing used.

There is rumours of transfer activity still being worked on by Liverpool and if it comes off will show just how serious Houllier is to land the title.

Come sunday it will be an interesting day. Liverpool at home to the biggest spenders this season with a chance to embrass them.

Cant wait.

"You'll never walk alone"

colster

I've said this before in other threads but I think that the most important player for Liverpool this season is going to be Heskey.
Owen needs to play off a big man, someone who can hold up the ball and out muscle defenders and scores goals.
You look at all the top teams.
Utd have Nistelrooy, Newcastle have Shearer, Arsenal have Henry, Chelsea have Gudjonsson/Hasselbaink. All of these players have the physical presence to hold the ball up, score goals and win balls in the air.

Heskey, on the evidence of the last few seasons does not have the quality to fill this role but I think he's been messed around being played on the wing etc. Maybe this season when he can concentrate solely on playing up front he will blossom into the player he should be.

If he doesn't I think that this is what will stop Liverpool winning the title. If they got Kluivert, Carew or even a Beatty then I think they would have an excellent chance.

Bannor

Originally posted by egan007
THe Line up above is ideal - the problem is depth in the squad - cover for the back is still a HUGE issue

By comparison to other teams Liverpool have got depth in defense - without including youth players on the fringe of the squad.

Arsenal
RB - Lauren,Stepanovs
CB - Campbell,Cygan,Keown,Stepanovs
LB - Cole,van Bronkhorst

Chelsea
RB - Bogarde,Gallas,Johnson,Melchiot
CB - Bogarde,Desailly,Gallas,Terry
LB - Babayaro,Bogarde,Bridge,Gallas

Liverpool
RB - Babbel,Carragher,Finnan
CB - Babbel,Biscan,Carragher,Henchoz,Hyypia,Traore
LB - Carragher,Finnan,Riise,Vignal

Man Utd
RB - Brown,G.Neville,P.Neville,O'Shea
CB - Brown,Ferdinand,G.Neville,O'Shea,Silvestre
LB - P.Neville,O'Shea,Silvestre

Newcastle
RB - Griffin,Hughes,O'Brien
CB - Bramble,Dabizas,O'Brien,Woodgate
LB - Bernard,Elliott

Last season Liverpool didn't have the option of Babbel or Finnan at right back so when Henchoz got injured the options for a partner for Hyypia were severely reduced - Biscan or Traore. There was also a period of time where Traore was forced to play at left back because Riise was in midfield and Vignal was on loan. We now have adequate cover for each of the defensive positions unless there's an injury blitz and none of the teams listed above are prepared for such a catastrophe.

smemon

your not seriously trying to compare liverpool with real madrid are you?

i know they play a similar system but look at the players they have, zidane, figo, carlos, raul, ronaldo. these players are the most attacking in the world! thats why its not easy to beat them because there in ur half all the time and they can keep the ball.

they leave gaps and of course against tactical italian or german sides, they'll be beaten.

liverpool only have risse and as far as i can see they try and play him everywere, left back, left midfield, wing back, attacking left midfield. thats in very game. one man cant run the show.

its GH's fault the system doesnt work. he's had 6 years and still doesnt know what system to play. still changes players about, sticks them anywere.

jonno

I would only include Biscan as defensive cover if it was a drastic situation (as it was last season). He is a midfielder and I would like to see him play well there. In fact I would like to see a few players starting to come good; most noteably Cheryou, Biscan, Diao and Traore. If and when this happens then we will be a side to be reckoned with:)

I believe Smicer is on the up at the moment. He had some v ery dodgey games last season but he seems to have pulled himself out of the rutt he was in, which is good news for our attacking options. Also Heskey knows he's walking the plank for the last time and so he seems to be crawling back to his best.

As for more transfers - at the moment the only thing I think Liverpool need is Owen's signature to keep him with us forever and Traore to learn how to defend properly.

AthAnRi

If your going to go so far as include Biscan and Carragher as cover for Centre back Positions for Liverpool then why did you fail to mention Keane at CB, Kleberson and Djemba at RB and fortune at Left Back. I think MU are better equiped than Liverpool are defensively but I would still consider them to be short a player or two. I think egan007 has a very valid point in that if Henchoz or Hyppia get injured Liverpool are in trouble. As was proved last season.

p.pete

Originally posted by smemon
your not seriously trying to compare liverpool with real madrid are you?

Did you even read the post? You had said that one of the formations that Bannor posted was easy to play against and it was just being pointed out that it was similar to how Real Madrid lined up on the pitch.

Nobody could seriously compare Pool to Madrid. While that formation may not suit situations where we are playing stronger sides like ManU or Arsenal it should help us get more points of teams who in the past have been happy to give us the ball, knowing we wouldn't do too much with it.

That's not a problem however as it was also posted that there is two other formations that we are practicing at the moment. So when one is leading up a blind avenue hopefully we will be able to change our ideas slightly easier this season.

jonno

Originally posted by p.pete
Did you even read the post? You had said that one of the formations that Bannor posted was easy to play against and it was just being pointed out that it was similar to how Real Madrid lined up on the pitch.

Nobody could seriously compare Pool to Madrid. While that formation may not suit situations where we are playing stronger sides like ManU or Arsenal it should help us get more points of teams who in the past have been happy to give us the ball, knowing we wouldn't do too much with it.

That's not a problem however as it was also posted that there is two other formations that we are practicing at the moment. So when one is leading up a blind avenue hopefully we will be able to change our ideas slightly easier this season.

I was just about to say the same thing p.pete. With all the different tactics being employed during the pre-season it should be easier to employ them in the middle of the season because the players will be familiar with it rather than what was done last year when players didn't know where they would be playing from one game to the next after GH threw caution to the wind and went into defensive mode

Bannor

Originally posted by smemon
your not seriously trying to compare liverpool with real madrid are you?

i know they play a similar system but look at the players they have, zidane, figo, carlos, raul, ronaldo. these players are the most attacking in the world! thats why its not easy to beat them because there in ur half all the time and they can keep the ball.

they leave gaps and of course against tactical italian or german sides, they'll be beaten.

liverpool only have risse and as far as i can see they try and play him everywere, left back, left midfield, wing back, attacking left midfield. thats in very game. one man cant run the show.

its GH's fault the system doesnt work. he's had 6 years and still doesnt know what system to play. still changes players about, sticks them anywere.

I didn't compare Liverpool to Real Madrid, I said Real Madrid play a similar system and it's not as easy to stop as you suggested.

As for Liverpool only having Riise - Finnan, Cheyrou, Kewell, Murphy, Le Tallec, Smicer, Diouf, Owen, Baros, Pongolle, and Heskey (phase of the moon dependent ) are attacking players. Gerrard could also be classed as an attacking player.

Of course you're right, Houllier has had six years at Liverpool and should have secured the championship at least four times in that period and a couple of Champions League titles too. :rolleyes:

p.pete

Originally posted by jonno
I was just about to say the same thing p.pete. With all the different tactics being employed during the pre-season it should be easier to employ them in the middle of the season because the players will be familiar with it rather than what was done last year when players didn't know where they would be playing from one game to the next after GH threw caution to the wind and went into defensive mode

Well, twas more like he threw whatever the oppositie of caution is into the wind:D

Personally I would be happy to see them play crap football and win the league - it would be great listening to all the moaning. If however a CL spot is the main aim for the season we may as well do it with a bit of style (save the defending for the two legged cup matches).

jonno

I mentioned this a long time ago on this board that maybe a year out of the champions league would be a good thing for Liverpool. Maybe the players might not be too happy with it but it gives them something to aspire to. I think the fact that we have no CL footie this year is a good thing. The main aim for LFC should be bringing the championship back to Anfield.

p.pete

Originally posted by jonno
I mentioned this a long time ago on this board that maybe a year out of the champions league would be a good thing for Liverpool. Maybe the players might not be too happy with it but it gives them something to aspire to. I think the fact that we have no CL footie this year is a good thing. The main aim for LFC should be bringing the championship back to Anfield.

It's certainly a deserved slap in the face for players and staff alike.

Bannor

Originally posted by AthAnRi
If your going to go so far as include Biscan and Carragher as cover for Centre back Positions for Liverpool then why did you fail to mention Keane at CB, Kleberson and Djemba at RB and fortune at Left Back. I think MU are better equiped than Liverpool are defensively but I would still consider them to be short a player or two. I think egan007 has a very valid point in that if Henchoz or Hyppia get injured Liverpool are in trouble. As was proved last season.

Biscan played in central defense in every game he played for Liverpool last season. Carragher currently plays as a full back but prior to the arrival of Henchoz and Hyypia he was a first choice central defender for Liverpool.

I didn't put the first choice midfielders in as defenders because I wanted to highlight the depth in defenders without having to weaken other areas of the team. If you want to add Keane to the list of Man Utd defenders then you can also add Gerrard and Diao to the Liverpool list. Fortune is not a defender, he only played in the fullback position when there wasn't a defender available.

Any team can stick a player in defense for a one off game and not be punished, but over the course of a season it will take its toll. Last season Liverpool played with a makeshift defense for the vast majority of the season and were still challenging for a Champions League place in the final game. Regarding Hyypia/Henchoz, as I've already said we have more options this year because of Babbel, Finnan and Vignal being available.

And of course it goes without saying that Man Utd have the most squad depth.

p.pete

Is Fortune like an exotic version of Gary Doherty? or maybe that deserves a thread all to itself?

GuanYin

Originally posted by Bannor
By comparison to other teams Liverpool have got depth in defense - without including youth players on the fringe of the squad.

Arsenal
RB - Lauren, Stepanovs, Toure, Svard
CB - Campbell, Cygan, Keown, Stepanovs, Senderos, Toure
LB - Cole,van Bronkhorst, Clichy, Grondin

Last season Liverpool didn't have the option of Babbel or Finnan at right back so when Henchoz got injured the options for a partner for Hyypia were severely reduced - Biscan or Traore. There was also a period of time where Traore was forced to play at left back because Riise was in midfield and Vignal was on loan. We now have adequate cover for each of the defensive positions unless there's an injury blitz and none of the teams listed above are prepared for such a catastrophe.

You are assuming GH will do the common sense option and play these people in these positions. All evidence and history suggests he won't.

Bannor

Toure is a midfielder.

Svard and Senderos are youth players on the fringe of the squad. I suspect that Clichy and Grondin also fall into that category.

If they were allowed you'll have to add the likes of Lynch, Tate and Tierney to Man Utd's list, and that's just from my memory there's bound to be a few more. Liverpool's list would include Medjani, Ostemobor, Warnock, Welsh and Whitbread.

50Cent

Houllier should be sacked.

p.pete

Originally posted by Bannor
Toure is a midfielder.

Svard and Senderos are youth players on the fringe of the squad. I suspect that Clichy and Grondin also fall into that category.

He's a busy man, not bothered with going through all the previous posts:D

As for 50cent, nice argument (maybe Kev Keegan can be pulled away from City?)

jesus_thats_gre

Houllier should be sacked.

Only for I think 50 Cent is the man, I would call you a muppet. At least provide a reason for your statement.

As for GH, the man wont be sacked this season. The club has invested to much in him and have allowed him to invest massive amounts of money in his squad. They obviously beleive in his abilities and I think they will continue to do so until things start going bad.

"Until they start going bad" - Things are still relatively good for the club, they are one of the few profitable clubs in England and GH has won some trophies. Admitedly they are not the Premiership or the Champion League but they are still better than nothing.

I honesly feel that if Liverpool can play consistently through the season (please not another November, December..... nightmare), they will easily finish in the top 3. The same 5 teams as last year will more than likely make up the top 5 this year again.

United will be there till the very end, its gonna take a big season to beat united. Surprisingly maybe, I feel Arsenal are gonna be at the bottom of the bunch with Newcastle, Chelsea and Liverpool filling 4th, 3rd and 2nd repectively. I know its incedibly stupid to try and predict the outcome and I know I am gonna be wrong.

smemon

there's no excuses for houllier so stop trying to make them.

the manager has to take the blame for a poor season. liverpool, although it kills me to admit have ok players but under a different man could challenge the big 3- utd arsenal and chelsea.

he's a failure unless he brings a REAL trophy to anfield, the league or champs league. this should be his last season if he fails to win the league. last season liverpool were an embarrassment to football. they send people to sleep.

Bannor

I think it's incredible that despite the injury crisis in defense and the worst run of games in over 50 years that Liverpool were still challenging for fourth place on the last day of the season. As you've rightly said if the team can be consistent this season then a top three finish is within their grasp.

If you take off the blinkers and adopt the head in the sand approach you will clearly see that Liverpool have gone backwards and are in a downward spiral. Houllier should be sacked before he relgates the club and Michael Owen should join Man Utd before it's too late otherwise he'll never have a chance of winning the Premiership. :rolleyes:

Bannor

Originally posted by smemon
there's no excuses for houllier so stop trying to make them.

the manager has to take the blame for a poor season. liverpool, although it kills me to admit have ok players but under a different man could challenge the big 3- utd arsenal and chelsea.

he's a failure unless he brings a REAL trophy to anfield, the league or champs league. this should be his last season if he fails to win the league. last season liverpool were an embarrassment to football. they send people to sleep.

Your comedy routines are second to none. :rolleyes:

the big 3- utd arsenal and chelsea.



Just two questions:
How long did it take Ferguson to win "a REAL trophy" with Man Utd? And how many of them have Chelsea or Ranieri for that matter won?

conman

I believe it would have takin Man Yoooo an embarrasing 10 yrs to win anything! Fergie was on his last legs until he suddenly started to win!

As for GH, he is a great person for the club, I think he would be of betr use upstairs if he doesn't improve things this season. An attacking type coach could be brought in,under GH's guidance...

smemon

this is what im trying to say i think, chelsea quite right as u point out havnt won anything major under ranieri.

but its the style of play, attacking, flair, style. liverpool dont have any style or flair. just defensive minded style played with 'manufactured' overrated english youngsters- owen, gerrard, carragher, heskey.

ive got lots of respect for ranieri for sticking to his style no matter what, same with kevin keegan, souness. ive got none for houllier who bores me. liverpool as a club i could tolerate but for me houllier is too much.

obviously liverpool fans will back their manager, your not a true fan if you dont. but for the neutrals out their, surely you understand my point.

smemon

yes, the big 3 utd arsenal and chelsea. im living in the present day, these are the teams to beat.

liverpool arent a top 3 side anymore. and as for the history questions, all liverpool and abu fans keep bringing them up trying to reverse the critical comments on their own team because they know the comments are valid.

8 titles in 11 years....., current champions and the best team in england. they cant be matched no matter what anybody does or says.

jesus_thats_gre

Smemon I can see you point, but shut the **** up with the gloating.. It really is typical of united supporters and it is the reason there is so much hatred towards the club. On that, you are correct, Liverpool do not play an attacking game. It is somewhat ignorant to criticise the club purely because they have a different style of football. It was only up until recently that united's attacking style was not rendered useless by Liverpool's style of play.


As for the big three, there is now a big five. Liverpool are still one of the wealthiest clubs in Europe and still one of the most successful ever. United are the richest club/business in the UK and Europe, Liverpool I beleive are second in the UK (profitability wise). If you are talking about purchasing power, Chelsea are now the most powerful, with United second and Liverpool/Newcastle third. Arsenal currently have the same buying power as Bolton. But on history and success, Arsenal are still a massive club.


The football style that Liverpool and GH play at the moment is not where GH wants to be. I am convinced the man has a plan but is still finding the most effective way of getting to where he wants to be. You will find that Liverpool this season will have play somewhat differently than last season (I hope) by playing a more attacking style while still maintaining an extremely effective defensive backbone.

Back to the point, United are the most powerful club at the moment. There is no doubting this, but it has to stop somewhere. United got a massive headstart over all other clubs with some fine financial moves early in the 90s and as a result are still a number of years ahead of everyone else. Liverpool and the likes are slowly catching them and realistically it wont be long before these clubs are on a par with United.

United supporters just keep forgetting that it took their Mr. Ferguson quite a few years to win anything. They still have only won the champions league once and that was not deserved. I think at one stage Alex's head was on the block with some fans.

Have faith my child :cool:

Third_Echelon

yawn.....

Bannor

Originally posted by smemon
yes, the big 3 utd arsenal and chelsea. im living in the present day, these are the teams to beat.

liverpool arent a top 3 side anymore. and as for the history questions, all liverpool and abu fans keep bringing them up trying to reverse the critical comments on their own team because they know the comments are valid.

8 titles in 11 years....., current champions and the best team in england. they cant be matched no matter what anybody does or says.

If you want to base it on the league table then Chelsea are not a top 3 side.

If you're basing it on the ability to attract top player then Man Utd's inclusion is questionable - how many top players rejected the club this summer alone?

And I see yet again that only football history since Man Utd returned to the top is admissable yet again. No surprise there!

The history of your club still pales by comparison to that of Liverpool - 4 European Cups in 7 years. How many clubs have matched or bettered that?