Time and patience running out for Houllier.

GuanYin

Originally posted by Bannor


The history of your club still pales by comparison to that of Liverpool - 4 European Cups in 7 years. How many clubs have matched or bettered that?

Yeah and Forets got 2 in 2 (I'll not let that be forgotten).

Things have changed since the Premiership came into being, money, players, style of play. Its a different game now and you can't really take past glories as a mark of how the team ranks today (Although I wish you could, forest would be top half of the Premiership)

p.pete

The premiership table is the best measure. Sorry Mr Wenger that makes ManU better. The major flaw with using the table is the amount of money Chelsea have spent distorts things.

At the moment Liverpool are 5th and because are likely to have improved and not disimproved I'll just leave it at 5th until the football starts at the weekend.

Based on History pool are the best which is pretty sweet but living memory only lasts so long - we'd better get the finger out soon.

smemon

again, bringing up the stoneage times, 4 cl's etc etc... chelsea this season will be a top 3 side. newcastle and liverpool will be 4th and 5th.

liverpool, yes have better history than everyone but history means nothing. people who gloat on history, like liverpool, cant move forward. nobody can change the past. its the present and future that matters most.

utd are THE team for the present and future. jesus thats gr8, u say houllier is 'still trying to find the most effective style of play'. thats my point summed up. 6 years and he still doesnt know what he's at.

Sajan

What really pisses me off is that people come into this forum knowing its going to be about Liverpool and started by a Liverpool supporter and just wreck peoples heads by saying that United or Arsenal or Chelsea are the best. Who gives a ****. Its completely off topic...

p.pete

Originally posted by Sajan
What really pisses me off is that people come into this forum knowing its going to be about Liverpool and started by a Liverpool supporter and just wreck peoples heads by saying that United or Arsenal or Chelsea are the best. Who gives a ****. Its completely off topic...

In fairness to the Chelsea fans they are not that brazen yet (although they are getting a little voiceiforous). Arsenal fans in general are being quiet which leaves the supporters of the other team.

As for the topic I think GH should be given this season. If it's no better this season I believe he would remove himself. If we get CL qualification and maybe a cup run however I think he will be around longer. Despite what people may believe he actually has quite a big ambition to win the CL:D

conman

quote smemon "again, bringing up the stoneage times, 4 cl's etc etc... chelsea this season will be a top 3 side. newcastle and liverpool will be 4th and 5th.

liverpool, yes have better history than everyone but history means nothing. people who gloat on history, like liverpool, cant move forward. nobody can change the past. its the present and future that matters most.

utd are THE team for the present and future. jesus thats gr8, u say houllier is 'still trying to find the most effective style of play'. thats my point summed up. 6 years and he still doesnt know what he's at."

whats that supposed to mean?

yea Liverpool arent quite there yet, but the team is getting closer and closer. ~ManYoo + Sir Alex took 10yrs of management before he won anything! Houl is not there 10yrs yet, Alex was to get the chop, but he scrapped tru, and then started to win lots...

GH is on his way to good things, give him time(Alex got it!)...As for ManYoooooooo being the team of the present + future? I'll agree with present, but ur being closed down, not necessarly the team of the future. thats just cocky Yoo fans !!! (as stated before, why u are hated!)

and if ur being cocky, saying that ye won most of the 90's, then u 2 are living in the past!

Slán !!!

Bannor

Big Ron is still talking sense - I wonder how long it will last...

Ron Atkinson
Friday August 15, 2003
The Guardian

Everybody's talking about Chelsea and Arsenal being Manchester United's main rivals for the championship but I wouldn't rule out Liverpool surprising people. If Gérard Houllier gets his tactics right they can win their first Premiership title.
The key is whether Houllier takes a more positive attitude than last season, particularly at Anfield. I'd like to see him give Steven Gerrard greater attacking licence and use a three-man forward line including Harry Kewell.

Liverpool have relied on a direct regimented style that has been fairly predictable. I can't see them challenging if that continues but I'd fancy them if they start to get the ball wide in the final third and then play from there or fire over crosses.

Liverpool have the personnel to do it and Michael Owen would thrive. Kewell can isolate defenders and produce quality balls while Steve Finnan, another summer signing, started as a winger and is comfortable in the top third. Finnan can deliver better service than Jamie Carragher and Markus Babbel have over recent sea sons. On the left John Arne Riise is more than capable of knocking balls across.

Kewell, for me, is the most important, though. If he's played up front with Owen plus another striker whenever possible, and given freedom to go through the middle or out wide, he could be sensational. He can get 15 goals and produce the sort of supply that Thierry Henry does for Arsenal.

That doesn't just mean crosses. Kewell has more cunning than anyone at Liverpool since Jari Litmanen and can put Owen through with clever, short passes. Then Owen won't have to wait for long balls, which defenders find easier to deal with.

I think the fact that Liverpool won only nine league games at home last season - compared with Manchester United's 16 and Arsenal's 15 - was because they lacked a surprise element. They had two solid banks of four, two strikers and everybody regimented.

Opponents knew they had a chance if they didn't give Liverpool a chance to knock balls over the top for Owen. Defenders can see 40-yard passes coming and deal with them, so Liverpool need to pull them around more and deliver balls from higher up the pitch. There's a place for the early one from deep but it mustn't be the stock ball.

People might say Houllier's tactics can't be too bad con sidering he put the FA Cup, League Cup and Uefa Cup on the table in 2001. But in that spell they had Litmanen and Gary McAllister, who could produce the unexpected. We didn't see that last season.

Kewell's got the invention and, if he, Finnan and Riise are firing balls into the box, I can see Emile Heskey benefiting. He proved against Roma a couple of seasons ago that he's capable of getting into the area and getting his head on things.

Not that crossing necessarily means providing opportunities for headers. A low ball is something Owen would love. It's remarkable he scores as many goals as he does because of all the leading strikers such as Henry, Ruud van Nistelrooy and Alan Shearer he has the least to feed off.

I don't see many chances created that Owen doesn't have to work hard for. His team-mates don't often beat three people and leave him with a tap-in but Kewell can provide that.

If Liverpool give Gerrard more freedom as well they could have the ideal blend. I think they're wasting him in a holding position. He's got great energy and I'd like to see him given a marauding role with licence to support the front players.

Gerrard's got a great shot, can win headers in the box and is capable of running beyond the strikers, which Liverpool have lacked. I remember him going on a big burst in last season's League Cup final against Manchester United and defenders hate that sort of thing.

I sense Liverpool can succeed but United remain the team to beat although they've lost a massive player in David Beckham, and no one can be sure how Kleberson and Cristiano Ronaldo will fit in.

Chelsea could go great guns if they get a top striker or Jimmy-Floyd Hasselbaink finds his old form but I wonder whether they'll have a problem accommodating all the players they have signed.

I don't think Newcastle have the defensive strength to win the really big away games and Arsenal are going to have to be lucky with injuries and show much better discipline as they lack strength in depth and are very reliant on Henry, Patrick Vieira and Sol Campbell.

While those four teams are in the Champions League, Liverpool can chase the Uefa Cup. Contesting the bigger competition requires a big focus whereas Liverpool's No1 target remains the title. If they get their approach right, they can win it.

AthAnRi

I believe it would have takin Man Yoooo an embarrasing 10 yrs to win anything! Fergie was on his last legs until he suddenly started to win!

It took Fergie 5 years to win anything significant. Not 10 years. And if you try and and say that the FA cup is not a 'Real' Trophy then forget it. In 1990 there was only two trophies worth winning the FA cup and the League. And it is still a decent trophy to win today despite what people say.

I totally agree that every manager should be given a decent time to sort out the problems they took over. GH has done a reasonable job so far at Liverpool but I think last season saw him take a step back. Of course he deserves another season to prove himself but If he ends up trophyless then he will probably call it a day himself. The difference between Fergie and GH, and I could be proved wrong, is that Fergie had a definate plan in his head. That was a youth policy.

I personally hope that Liverpool get their act together, While I hold the same hatred towards them as any True Man Utd fan does, I also have a lot of respect for them. They were a terrific team in the past and will be a terrific team in the future. Wouldn't it be terrific to see the Three giants of the English game locked in a battle for the Crown. It would be so Interesting and it would make it all the sweeter for the team that were to win.

AthAnRi

Originaly Posted by Conman
Alex was to get the chop, but he scrapped tru, and then started to win lots...

This is not entirely true. When Utd were drawn out for the FA cup draw in 1990 they got drawn against Forest. Fergie felt that he would have to win that tie, as they were way to far down the league to win that. It was a tought draw but they pulled it off. When utd got to the FA Cup final in 1990 the press stated that it was win or bust for Fergie, which wasnt true as Edwards had already told fergie that he was going to be the manager of Man Utd for the following season, regardless of what happened against Crystal Palace

p.pete

Originally posted by AthAnRi
It took Fergie 5 years to win anything significant. Not 10 years. And if you try and and say that the FA cup is not a 'Real' Trophy then forget it. In 1990 there was only two trophies worth winning the FA cup and the League. And it is still a decent trophy to win today despite what people say.

The point is Ferguson took ages to win the league. GH has also managed to win the FA cup within that timeframe so it certainly doesn't make mr ferguson stand appart from him.

AthAnRi

P.Pete I totally agree and I Stated that in the second paragraph of my post. But It is a bit of an exageration to turn 5 years into 10, don't you agree.

I think though the difference between Fergie and GH is that once fergie started to win he built on it. He never failed to win a trophy from 1990 until 1995 when they were runners up in the league and FA cup. GH seems to have gone the opposite way. Personally I don't think he is the right man for the job, but yes he should be given more time.

p.pete

I didn't mean to totally disagree with you AthAnri - I know you were being quite fair.

It was neither 5 nor 10 years. Fergi took sole charge in November 86 and won his first league in 93 - you do the math.

In response to ferguson always winning trophies once he started - we won the three trophies in 01 and won nothing in 02 which was a disapointment. We only won a scrappy little trophy this season but alas, hopefully things will improve.

Bannor

Originally posted by AthAnRi
I think though the difference between Fergie and GH is that once fergie started to win he built on it. He never failed to win a trophy from 1990 until 1995 when they were runners up in the league and FA cup. GH seems to have gone the opposite way. Personally I don't think he is the right man for the job, but yes he should be given more time.

Within three seasons of taking sole charge at Liverpool, Houllier achieved what it took Ferguson 5 years to do at Man Utd.

What many people forget or choose to over look is that he almost died during the Leeds game at Anfield at the start of October in 2001, he was rushed to hospital for emergency surgery that saved his life. He returned to Anfield at the end on March 2002. To suggest he took the team backwards that season because they didn't win anything is wishful thinking - the team got to the Quarter-Final of the Champions League (lost out to the team that put Man Utd out in the Semi-Final) and finished second in the league ahead of Man Utd.

The achievement of the squad in Houllier's absence built a false expectation for the following season, the players added to the squad were all imports and needed time to aclimatise to the England and Premiership football. Last season the team had their worst run in 50 years between November and January - was Houllier responsible for the injuries and the poor form of key players in the team? Despite the 11 match blip, the team went on a run that saw them challenging for a Champions League place on the last day of the season and they picked up a trophy along the way too. The season was deemed a failure because of the high expectations before it began.

The squad in place at Liverpool for this season is the best since the 2000/1 season - the club isn't going backwards, more like wishful thinking of those that fear the propect of a new challenge from Liverpool.

smemon

houllier isnt on the same planet as wenger or ferguson. i'd rate him as one of the poorest managers in the league. imagine what liverpool could achieve with ferguson or wenger, o'leary, robson etc..

kamobe

He's spent over £115 million on some terrible players. Okay, there was one or two nice signings in there, but £27 million for Diouff Smicer and Heskey? Idiocy.

Sajan

To be honest I think the good signings have outclassed the bads blemishes. Hyypia, Henchoz, Baros and Hamman spring to mind. His eye for talent is certainly not to be questioned. Le Tallec and Sinama became the hottest property around AFTER Houllier signed them. And for the others another season will really tell how good/bad they were.

mike65

Originally posted by p.pete
you do the math.

Maths....purleeze!

Back on topic, Houllier has to get it right this season or he will be out. And Fergie did take years to achieve what he set out to do but some Man Utd fans think thier team did'nt exisit before 1993:D

Mike.

mike65

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/b/blackburn_rovers/3156209.stm

I dont see how Madam H can say Liverpool have enough options at the back....

Mike.

elsoldemayo

The biggest criticism of Liverpool / Houllier last season was the standard of football they played.
For a team famous for passing football, the long punt to Owen is horrible to watch. Even when they won games, as a Liverpool fan it was disappointing to watch.
I think Houllier's biggest threat will be if Liverpool continue to play this type of game and it fails to pay off. Crap football and average results will increase the pressure.
However, if they win then Houllier may get away with crap football, unfortunately.

Dr Bolouswki

I previously had a soft spot for the Pool - liked to see them win etc. good scallies with a cheeky smile an' all that...

No more. Houlliers dreadful tactics and the over reliance on the long ball to owen, combined with his constantly beating dead horses (Heskey, Smicer) just makes me laugh when you get beaten now... I WANT to like you again, but not while that washing-machine-on-spin-eyed looney is at the helm....

He'll stand down at the end of this season if you don't get CL football. Which you won't.

Then next season - Martin O'Neill. You mark my words.

The Muppet

The biggest criticism of Liverpool / Houllier last season was the standard of football they played.
For a team famous for passing football, the long punt to Owen is horrible to watch. Even when they won games, as a Liverpool fan it was disappointing to watch.
I think Houllier's biggest threat will be if Liverpool continue to play this type of game and it fails to pay off. Crap football and average results will increase the pressure.
However, if they win then Houllier may get away with crap football, unfortunately.

At Last a Liverpool fan posting how he truly feels abou GH instead of the propaganda spoted by the majority of liverpool fans here. Some of their rantings and diagrams would put the iraq information minister to shame.:D

fair play to you for your honesty elsold .

mike65

Muppet there are plenty of realistic Liverpool fans here. Use the seach feature and find comments like the one below!

quote:

Originally posted by dougal
Gerard Houllier hasn't a clue tactically is all I have to say!

Sadly I'm starting to have doubts of my own, it was no way to mark 4 years in solo charge at Anfield. Houllier has done some great things for the club which have made them serious contenders in the English game but not, dispite one UEFA cup, in Europe. Yeah I know they beat the likes of Roma and did well generally but the success was 90% sweat and 10% artistry.

The thing is I belive Liverpool have the players but Houllier is instinctivly a conservative chap which is why Jari Litmanans stay was so frustrating for him as well as us.

They could cut loose but he wont let them, last night was instructive, Heskey on the wing again Smicer up front with Owen was maddness, but he did it because he was more interested in trying to protect the left flank than have Heskey make space up front for Owen, while Smicer should have been given a free role.

This was a winner takes all game, and attack is the best form of defence but Houllier does'nt see the game like that. We may well win the League but never the CL unless Houllier is willing to change. Rant over.

Mike.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69852&perpage=30&highlight=Liverpool%20Houllier&pagenumber=2

Mike.

The Muppet

Muppet there are plenty of realistic Liverpool fans here.

Agree mike I have seen many posts like this xample in fact i post on this in another thread earlier today. I have many friends whor are dyed in the woll liverpool supporters and so I know what many of the really think which s why i posted my comments on the propaganda like the early posts in this thread.

Sajan

I dont think there is a Liverpool fan in the world who wouldn't like to see Martin O'niell in charge. I rate him as high as Ferguson and Ferguson. Its the heart on the sleeve approach that may save Liverpool instead of Houlliers coy dealings.

AthAnRi

Originally Posted by p.pete
It was neither 5 nor 10 years

Pete my argument was going against conman who stated that it took United 10 years to win anything significant. This just wasn't true. As you said Fergie started in November 86 and he collected the FA Cup in May of 1990, as I'm sure you know. This is infact less than 5 years.

Conman was hinting that the FA Cup wasn't a significant trophy but I beg to Differ. At the time English teams were banned from European competitions so they had only the three domestic trophies to fight for.

the club isn't going backwards, more like wishful thinking of those that fear the propect of a new challenge from Liverpool

Bring it on. I relish the day it comes. If you had bothered to read my earlier post you would see that It is something I would like to see happen.

While you believe that Houiller is the Man for the Job I disagree. I personally don't think he is. But I do think that he should be given more time to see if he is simply because Fergie was.

But as the topic states, time and patience are growing thin.

The Muppet

At the time English teams were banned from European competitions

Why Was This? Was it the "scum" united supporters fault?

mike65

:rolleyes:

Mike.

The Muppet

I take your point mike but as a utd supporter i take exception at being called scum. Thats exactly what some posts have branded Utd supporters so I was just giving a little reminder that Utd dont have a monoply in this department.

p.pete

Originally posted by AthAnRi
Pete my argument was going against conman who stated that it took United 10 years to win anything significant. This just wasn't true. As you said Fergie started in November 86 and he collected the FA Cup in May of 1990, as I'm sure you know. This is infact less than 5 years.

Yipee, GH won a significant trophy, and within 5 years also:rolleyes:

AthAnRi

Yes he has and fair play to him. However he has failed to really build on it but as bannor so emphatically states with the history lesson, this may be the year. The thing I would be upset about if I was a pool supporter thought is the style in which he did/does it. It seems to go against liverpools philosophy of playing attractive football.

When Fergie took over he had a plan in mind, but that plan could only take place as long as United continued in the same vain as Matt Busby meant it, that is to play attractivem exciting football, with the emphasis on attack.

Houiller's plan seems to be to bring succes to the club at whatever cost. this cost seems to be the boring approach of hoofing.

With the signing of Finan and Kewell he may be changing his approach which may indicate that he isn't to sure himself what he is doing. He also stated after the chelsea match that he was a little dissapointed with some of the long balls played out of Liverpools defence.

It looks like Arsenal and Liverpool have swaped places. Arsenal adopting the pass and move groove with liverpool going to the hit heskey with everything you got.

It is also a little unfair to be comparing Houiller to Fergie. Despite what Fergie did at the begining of his career ultimately his ideas worked and what ever he does between now and when he retires he can and should only be compared to the Greats like Bill Shankly, Like Bob Paisley and like Matt Busby.

GH has yet to prove that. I don't think Liverpool fans would have appreciated it if we compared Fergie to Bill Shankly at the start of Fergies career.

smemon

get em out. before its too late or else it will be another season without real success.

ive noticed anfield isnt a fortress anymore, liverpool last season and now the start of this have a pretty poor record at home. old trafford and highbury are now established fortresses but liverpool still dont have the consistency.

if i was a relegation contender, i'd think i could get a point a anfield. thats the difference between good and great. killing off games by that 2nd clear goal. pool dont win too many games by over the single goal.

the 'Boring boring arsenal' chant is now 'boring boring liverpool'. i'd take attractive football over silverware anyday. football was made to be played attackingly. houllier, are you jack charlton in disguise?????

The Muppet

Good post there AthAnRi . Without being over complicated you have summed the liverpool situation up perfectly. I suspect privately the liverpool supporters know you are telling it as it is .Some of them just cant accept it publically from a Red Devil.

p.pete

Originally posted by The Muppet
Good post there AthAnRi . Without being over complicated you have summed the liverpool situation up perfectly. I suspect privately the liverpool supporters know you are telling it as it is .Some of them just cant accept it publically from a Red Devil.

As a Liverpool supporter I don't mind admitting that a lot of what AthAnRi says is quite correct (he certainly makes more balanced points than semon who I'm not sure has a brain in his head at all - does a good job of getting people to hate manu supporters:( )

Anyway, what I agree with:
- Houllier has had similar success in his first few years but hasn't built on it. We make excuses like illnesses and unexplained freak 11 game patches etc, but this is basically true.

- These successes were achieved with "ugly" football. That is also true. I wouldn't agree though that if he tries to make things more attacking now that you can pressume that he doesn't know what he wants to do. I'd agree that he is very conservative though and if an attacking formation being tried isn't working he is likely to revert to the defensive option.

- I also believe a lot of the comparisons to fergie are unfair. The only real comparison that is viable is that Ferguson was given a certain amount of time and ye would have regretted it if ye had jumped the gun and fired him. I personally believe that if this season is not better than last GH will do the decent thing without being asked and step aside.

GH will never actually win the same amount of trophies as Ferguson. His career has gone on a different path, being involved in Frances' youth development and Uefa technical comittees etc. and arriving at Liverpool rather later in his life than Ferguson at manu.

-- I would disagree however with the comparisons made with Bushby, Shankly, Paisly and Ferguson. I don't know too much about Bushby except that he was excellent at building teams and brought European success etc. Paisly and Ferguson could also be in this mould.

What I don't think Bushby did was build a great club - the ground work was not in place for the continued success of the club. This is one thing that Shankly got spot on (without winning too much - enough mind you). He was able to hand the club over to Paisly who just had to keep things going, win loads and pass it on to the next guy (Fagan).

After the great Bushby era things died down eventually and there was that 30 year gap that pool fans love mentioning. Ferguson had to do a massive job to turn the club around and back onto the right track again and I reckon he has left an excellent infrastructure at the club so that if whoever follows him doesn't change things too much the club should have continued success for years to come.

This kind of job (the turning around of a club, not just the winning of trophies) is a very difficult thing to do correctly and I believe GH is doing an excellent job in that regard. In much the same way Shankly passed on a club in excellent condition I think GH will be doing the same (whether that be at the end of this season or in five or ten years time). As regard the football that is being played on the pitch however, perhaps as the title of the thread suggests, time is running out for the man.

[end rant]

GuanYin

Originally posted by p.pete
GH will actually win the same amount of trophies as Ferguson. His career has gone on a different path being involved in Frances youth development and Uefa technical comittees and arriving at Liverpool rather later in his life than Ferguson at manu.

<snip>

This kind of job (the turning around of a club, not just the winning of trophies) is a very difficult thing and I believe GH is doing an excellent job in that regard. As regard the football that is being played on the pitch however, perhaps as the title of the thread suggests, time is running out for the man.

Having watched the Liverpool match last Sunday I had it pointe dout that Liverpool do play attacking football, its just that its predictable and ineffective to the point of farce.

I sincerely doubt GH will win the same amount of trophies at Liverpool as Fergie has at Utd. I don't think he will bethere long enough.

Now, to be fair, GH hasn't exactly turned the club around. Since the Premiership began til GH took over Liverpool won one league cup and finished either 3rd or 4th every year.

All GH has done is win cups. He hasn't progressed in their league achievements. They finished 2nd without ever actually challanging for 1st place and finished 5th last season. Every other year they managed 3rd or 4th. Just like before Houllier arrived.

In the meantime they have lost all style, innovation and flair in their play and most of the old Liverpool tradition is gone. True so are the "fancy boys" of old but at what cost.

It doesn't seem to me like he turned anything around. He did reach a phase of plateau though!

p.pete

Originally posted by sykeirl
Having watched the Liverpool match last Sunday I had it pointe dout that Liverpool do play attacking football, its just that its predictable and ineffective to the point of farce.

I sincerely doubt GH will win the same amount of trophies at Liverpool as Fergie has at Utd. I don't think he will bethere long enough.

Now, to be fair, GH hasn't exactly turned the club around. Since the Premiership began til GH took over Liverpool won one league cup and finished either 3rd or 4th every year.

All GH has done is win cups. He hasn't progressed in their league achievements. They finished 2nd without ever actually challanging for 1st place and finished 5th last season. Every other year they managed 3rd or 4th. Just like before Houllier arrived.

In the meantime they have lost all style, innovation and flair in their play and most of the old Liverpool tradition is gone. True so are the "fancy boys" of old but at what cost.

It doesn't seem to me like he turned anything around. He did reach a phase of plateau though!

In my original post I said GH would win as many posts as fergy, this was a an error (I forgot to use the word "never") and as edited fairly shortly after the original post.

In terms of everything else you have just said - did you read my post? I said the football on the pitch isn't great and that he hasn't brought the success we expect.

In terms of turning the club around he has done it in terms of youth development and creating a professional environment - which was one thing that was rapidly deteriorating before his arrival.

GuanYin

Yup, I did read it.

But his youth development is nullified by the fact he is not giving any youngsters a chance and the professionalism hasn't transferred to the pitch.

I just don't see how he has turned anything around, or at least I don't see any produce from it if he has.

p.pete

Originally posted by sykeirl
Yup, I did read it.

But his youth development is nullified by the fact he is not giving any youngsters a chance and the professionalism hasn't transferred to the pitch.

I just don't see how he has turned anything around, or at least I don't see any produce from it if he has.

Totally agree there, youth is being bought / produced but under utilised. Also the results are not on the pitch.

I tried to make a comparison with bushby - built great teams and won stuff but shortly after he left the place fell apart. You can rebuild a club without it showing on the pitch.

The Muppet

Fair points pete and i agree with most of them.

Busby was before my time really so all i know of him is the folklore.He had a very sucesssful first stint in charge. It was a differen era than today and money did not play as much of a role in footbal then with the wage ceiling etc it must have been harder then to replace ageing star players. The money would not have been there for youth academys etc so for these reasons I would not blame busby for what followed.

p.pete

Originally posted by The Muppet
Fair points pete and i agree with most of them.

Busby was before my time really so all i know of him is the folklore.He had a very sucesssful first stint in charge. It was a differen era than today and money did not play as much of a role in footbal then with the wage ceiling etc it must have been harder then to replace ageing star players. The money would not have been there for youth academys etc so for these reasons I would not blame busby for what followed.

I can't say I'm an expert on that era either but Shankly is a legend from then not for the trophies he won but for building the club in such a way that success would be easily maintained in later years.

There is lots of managers that can build squads and win things without leaving the infrastructure in place Brian Clough would be another example - there is no life for Forest without him.

Whether GH and AF are doing that at their respective clubs at the moment remains to be seen. It certainly appears to me that if AF were to hand over manu at the moment the club would be in good shape. I hope that the same is true of GH and while things are not right on the pitch at the moment I feel most other things are in position at the club.

The performances on the pitch basically boil down to GHs' questionable managerial abilities - we'll take a look at what is achieved by the end of the season.

AthAnRi

What I don't think Bushby did was build a great club - the ground work was not in place for the continued success of the club. This is one thing that Shankly got spot on (without winning too much - enough mind you). He was able to hand the club over to Paisly who just had to keep things going, win loads and pass it on to the next guy (Fagan).

I kind of agree with this statement. In the fact that once busby left that was it. However It must also be taken into consideration that when Busby took over there was nothing there. He employed the policy of a youth structure. But unfotunately due to the unforseen circumstances in Munich much of his youth structure was left in ruins.

I think what really left the club in disarray was after Busby left so did a lot of the Players. Law sold to Man City, Charlton Retired, Best just took to the Gaggle and moved to USA. Despite the fact there was a lot of youth at the club after Busby left there was no experience there to bring it through. I think Shankly and Busby are in the same category. Maybe Shankly learned from what happened at UTD, but he also handed the club over to an excellent manager like Paisley.

Pete I agree with everything else you said. Your points as usual were fair and unbias. You certainly know how to take yourself out of the shoes of a Liverpool fan and look at things objectively.

Muppet I appreciate the compliment.

Dr Bolouswki

There is lots of managers that can build squads and win things without leaving the infrastructure in place Brian Clough would be another example - there is no life for Forest without him.

They reached the play-offs last season with no money to spare and their squad is almost exclusively composed of youth players brought through their system... it's where both Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane learned their trade - and don't forget the early scoring sensation that was Stan Collymore... Forest are on theup - watch out for a kid named Michael Dawson...

Back on topic - I'll drink a glass of my own piss and post the pictures on boards if liverpool finish in the top 3 this season...
if any liverpool fans will do the same if you don't make the top 3!

The Muppet

watch out for a kid named Michael Dawson...

Have heard snippets of dawson and he does appear to have a bright future in the game. Unfortunately he will probably be sold as soon if he proceeds as expected.

Forest were agreat team to watch in the cloughie years. He was a great manager and it is englans loss that they never appointed him . He would certainly have got performances out of them.

p.pete

Originally posted by Killah_B
They reached the play-offs last season with no money to spare and their squad is almost exclusively composed of youth players brought through their system... it's where both Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane learned their trade - and don't forget the early scoring sensation that was Stan Collymore... Forest are on theup - watch out for a kid named Michael Dawson...

Back on topic - I'll drink a glass of my own piss and post the pictures on boards if liverpool finish in the top 3 this season...
if any liverpool fans will do the same if you don't make the top 3!

Forest on the up? that would be true except for the fact that they looked poor while beating mac's sunderland and lost the next game:rolleyes:

If the club was in such a strong position producing that quality a player would they not considered using that as a starting point and building a squad around it - instead of using it as an ending point and cashing in (certainly in the case of Keane)? You see the case is, they probably weren't cashing in - just like now they were probably financially screwed and in disarray.

What they did last season was admirable - and I think Hart to be and exceptional manager (perhaps another good idea as a replacement for GH if things haven't improved by the seasons end? - sure I'd welcome kev keegan!), but the club has a long, long way to go.

p.pete

Originally posted by AthAnRi
Pete I agree with everything else you said. Your points as usual were fair and unbias. You certainly know how to take yourself out of the shoes of a Liverpool fan and look at things objectively.

Fair point about bushby losing his team and probably destroying a lot of his efforts - it actually backs up my point that he was excellent at building teams but in terms of putting the club on a strong footing it is fair to say that things were more difficult for him than anyone else I can think of.

In terms of BS learning from MB, maybe so - but I reckon sir matt learned everything he knew from Liverpool - he used to captain us:D . He was behind bringing Billy Liddle to the club, god bless him!

Couldn't resist quoting the paragraph above - i'm sure either I'll proove you wrong later or else someone will laugh heartily, but thanks!

The Muppet

but I reckon sir matt learned everything he knew from Liverpool - he used to captain us

You gave us Busby, we gave you your Anthem. Fair Exchange:D

p.pete

Originally posted by The Muppet
You gave us Busby, we gave you your Anthem. Fair Exchange:D

Thought oscar hammerstein or someone like that gave us the anthem? What was the link there - interested to know.

Happy enough how things worked out - ye got to be the first to win in Europe and to build 2 very exciting teams (more exciting then liverpool ever, ever were - regardless of what we won) and we got Shankly - the rest as they say, is history:D

GuanYin

Originally posted by p.pete
Forest on the up? that would be true except for the fact that they looked poor while beating mac's sunderland and lost the next game:rolleyes:

If the club was in such a strong position producing that quality a player would they not considered using that as a starting point and building a squad around it - instead of using it as an ending point and cashing in (certainly in the case of Keane)? You see the case is, they probably weren't cashing in - just like now they were probably financially screwed and in disarray.

What they did last season was admirable - and I think Hart to be and exceptional manager (perhaps another good idea as a replacement for GH if things haven't improved by the seasons end? - sure I'd welcome kev keegan!), but the club has a long, long way to go.

Forest are on the up in terms of getting things right off the pitch. Forest have possibly best, or at least second best youth system in the country. They have won the U19 Premiership 3 out of the last 5 years.

Currently their first team, youth products include Dawson, Thompson, Reid, Westcarr, Williams, Bopp and Harewood.

Let us not forget Prutton and Jenas either. Their sale took forest out of receivership and while their debts are still large, they are no longer in a position where they need to sell any of their young players. The Forest defence is built around Dawson at the moment so I can't see him going unless a record transfer offer is on the table.

So while Forest have a stable structure and are slowly getting their finances right one could expect them to do badly in the league. Thankfully this isn'thappening, at the start of last season they were many peoples tip for a Div 2 drop. The playoffs were well beyond anyones expectations.

They started poorly this year, but again, they are missing dawson. Reading are one of teh better teams in Div 1 and its worth noting that there were only 16 points between the playoff teams and the 14th finishing team in Div 1 last year (I think around that anyway). Finishing a season unbeated in Div 1 is near impossible and everyone will drop points againts everyone. Its what makes it an exciting division.

embee

Fed up of Houllier playing musical chairs with the starting XI.
Fed up if his blind positivity in the face of such gack performances.
Who is there out there to replace the fooker though?

GuanYin

Fed up if his blind positivity in the face of such gack performances

The term is "Phase of Plateau"

p.pete

Originally posted by sykeirl
The term is "Phase of Plateau"

Yes, we've really "turned a corner"