Would RTS be interested in a public debate here on the matter?

DeVore

I'm still looking for a decent topic that isnt clear cut and onesided for the first debate using our debating chamber.

I can see a few people here have strong feelings one way or the other and I'd like to see it debated (without the "Shut Up Sand" comments and a little better thought out perhaps.)

I'm happy to give a platform to informed intellectual debate on the topic, given that Sept is a likely time to have it up and running , it could very well prove topical.

Any RTS people here? Anyone want to declare an interest in debating against them too?

1 week debate, 3 falls or a submission

DeV.

DadaKopf

without the "Shut Up Sand" comments

DeVore

Originally posted by DadaKopf

Yes, *you're* "Shut Up Sand" comments to his perfectly valid question.

Anyway, back on topic, if you know the RTS people and think they would be interested, then please let them know that this platform is available to them.

DeV.

redflaremist

heya

i do some rts stuff. what do you mean when you say have a debate?

do you mean in real life or on the internet?

if its all on the internet, then to be honest i dont think any of us are really bothered. its a lot of time & typing, and nothing concrete ever gets hammered out or discussed properly on internet threads.

if people want to come along to the open meeting at cultivate & discuss their anti RTS feelings then please do. i think that real life interactions are a hundred, no, a thousand times more productive than any internet discussion ever is.

and yes, i am aware of the irony...

seeyeraftah....

bonkey

Originally posted by redflaremist
what do you mean when you say have a debate?

I think he means that we wish to have a debate.

do you mean in real life or on the internet?

Consider the word "here" in the title of the thread

Seriously though.....we're looking to start up a "formal" internet debate section....controlled teams, limited posts, seperate area for side-discussions, etc. etc. etc. In otherwords.....as close to a "real-world debate" as you can genuinely structure on boards.

if its all on the internet, then to be honest i dont think any of us are really bothered. its a lot of time & typing, and nothing concrete ever gets hammered out or discussed properly on internet threads.

We're doing it differently. Go check up the Debating Chamber (under society) to see what we're hoping to do.

Yes - it is a lot of time and typing. Then again, for anyone who is seriously interested, I don't think its that much time.

And I'd find it somewhat ironic if none of you were interested. Are you not the ones telling ppl that we need to be more aware, more conscious, more this-that-and-the-other? Surely we will only become this way if you and yours are willing to engage us in discussion? Indeed, by implying that you're not interested in getting your message across in this manner only lends credence to allegations that RTS is just an excuse for a street-party.

If you're not willing to disprove such allegations, how can you possibly expect to ever convert anyone to your cause? How seriously can you even expect people to take a cause thats worth man-months(?) of planning to manage the disrupting of a city's traffic for a period of time to supposedly make a point, but thats not worth a couple of evenings of work to actually argue your case in public???

if people want to come along to the open meeting at cultivate & discuss their anti RTS feelings then please do.

Interesting offer. If I wasn't in Switzerland, I'd be interested in doing just that, to see how much time I was given on your turf to argue that RTS should be stopped, that the police should arrest the organisers, and that you are recklessly endangering human life.

Its not what I actually believe, but I'm just wondering if you're serious about what you say...that you guys will calmly sit down and let someone rant and rave about the wrongs your're perpetuating at one of your open meetings, and then discuss it with them. Given that you're saying its more productive in real life...I'd expect at least the same degree of courtesy and freedom of expression which we try and enforce here.

Somehow I get the feeling that after a short amount of time, anyone doing this would be told "if you don't agree with what we're doing then shag off and stop disrupting it on us".

Maybe I'm wrong, but there you go....I'm just skeptical of anyone who says "we're perfectly willing to discuss this on our turf, but nowhere else because...." And when the because is "its too much effort / not worthwhile", I genuinely have to wonder how much the people saying such things genuinely believe in the worth of what they are proposing.

Note for the easily offended : "I have to wonder" means that for me the jury is out on this issue....nothing else.

I think that real life interactions are a hundred, no, a thousand times more productive than any internet discussion ever is.

Generally, I'd agree. However, I would say that this boards.ie debate idea offers one thing that you can't - a neutral territory for both sides to state their cases in.

and yes, i am aware of the irony...

that RTS is willing to advertise its existence and events in our threads, but the real "RTS core" aren't bothered actually coming in and discussing things here?

Thats not just irony, m8.

jc

DeVore

Bonkey makes some good points. I'd be saddened if RTS werent interested in a proper debate (using our Debating Chamber) to be the first debate of its kind here and raise the awareness of the general populace regarding its cause.

There are 6500 regular visitors here. There are 1800 views of the globalisation thread alone... one thread of 200-a-day here.

Even if only a small % dipped into the debate as it was happening.... thats still several hundred people reading what you write.

How many turn up at your regular open meetings?

Just a thought. The offer is genuine.

DeV.

redflaremist

... but I dont have the time or inclination to pull apart the posts and reply to each point like posters do on boards.ie. I dont have the internet in work (actually, I dont have a job!) so I dont sit on a PC all day with time to kill.

I'll repeat what I said about things being more productive in real life. Even if one or two people came down to the open meeting then I would think they would learn more than a hundred people reading a point on the web. The Internet has a lot of shortcomings and I think debating on it loses a lot of human interaction pros.

>> and yes, i am aware of the irony...

> that RTS is willing to advertise its existence and events in our threads, but the real "RTS core" aren't bothered actually coming in and discussing things here?

The irony I was talking about was stating the ineffectiveness of debating on the internet while actually doing just that!

And I'd also be happy for anyone to come along and rant & rave against us at our open meeting. I'll gladly discuss it with anyone anywhere in the real world. People know me as an RTSer, especially my non-political friends (or those with opposing views) so I usually have to defend my corner - typically in the pub..!

So yeah please, boards.ie right-wingers, know-all bulletin board cynics, virgin corporate programmers with a chip on your shoulder, people with no life except your PC, etc, you are ALL welcome to come to our meeting and shoot your mouth off in real life the exact same way you would on the internet.

(just a bit of stirring... relax its tongue in cheek... or is it??

)

redflaremist

where's your debating chamber then? i'll have a look at it if i'm back on the internet in the next 3 or 4 days and see how it operates in the interest of being open and all that.

also, here's some food for thought/debate. there was a riot at the MTV/2FM/HB free party on Dollymount, i wonder if people will label the organisers 'troublemakers' the same way they did with RTS (despite the GARDA being the instigators of ALL violence in May '02)

chewy

i post the developing rts the streets debates on boards.ie cos i recognise the business of it

but how do you expect us to reply to 6500 people eh when the about dozen + rts regulars ?

that does make people feel a bit hounded and there only about one or two who ever post reasonalby on rts threads

i read through 5 pages of debate from last sept rts to see any helpful debate mostly i got rts must make people more aware of the issues etc, we have developed a habbit in our meetings that if someone suggests something even off the cuff the chair will go right back to him/her and say "so you'll look into that will you?"

so when you suggest sometinhg about rts maybe give us a concrete proposal on how to folow that through criticism fine but constructive criticism

i might, might be interested in debating it, but like redfalre i don't sit on comp all day as most of your regular posters do

and i have to agree with him again with the way post re picked apart like bonkers did his???

there no way any body can keep up with your regular posters who must post dozens of times a day so were are a bit slow in reply to the debates we start

the best way for people to understnd rts is to get involved ?

i personally appreciate the invitation for a proper debate
immigrant groups

ill have a look at your debating board some other time



i had nothing to do with rts until i turned up at meeting and got stuck in
nobody in the room really new me, but aslong as i do as well as talk i became apart of rts without a prob

chewy

btw
open meeting for _everybody_
has been changed to happeny inn

same time weds 730pm

ta

ive just copied and pasted the other rts thread and will read and reply to the gist of it offline

SkepticOne

Originally posted by chewy
so when you suggest sometinhg about rts maybe give us a concrete proposal on how to folow that through criticism fine but constructive criticism

i might, might be interested in debating it, but like redfalre i don't sit on comp all day as most of your regular posters do

and i have to agree with him again with the way post re picked apart like bonkers did his???

there no way any body can keep up with your regular posters who must post dozens of times a day so were are a bit slow in reply to the debates we start

the best way for people to understnd rts is to get involved ?

i personally appreciate the invitation for a proper debate
immigrant groups

ill have a look at your debating board some other time

i had nothing to do with rts until i turned up at meeting and got stuck in
nobody in the room really new me, but aslong as i do as well as talk i became apart of rts without a prob

I can empathise with some of the sentiments here. If you have a view that goes against the grain, it can be drowned out simply because you don't have the time to respond to a large number of long posts from people who have more time.

However, my understanding of the debating idea, is that there would be limits placed on the length of post from both sides as well as time limits and limits on team size. The whole point is to remove unfairness due to time and numerical superiority.

That is my understanding at least. It would be worth getting in touch with DeVore for clarification. This may be a good opportunity for RTS to get its message across to people who would otherwise not be bothered.

bonkey

Originally posted by chewy
but how do you expect us to reply to 6500 people eh when the about dozen + rts regulars ?

I guess we got fooled by all the propaganda telling us how popular a movement it was



jc

redflaremist

> I guess we got fooled by all the propaganda telling us how popular a movement it was

What "propaganda" is this exactly?

And hey, if the boards.ie politics board moderators can get a thousand people to show up at a street party, in real life that is, not a 'cyber-party' but ACTUAL PEOPLE interacting HUMANLY with each other, then I'll buy you a pint.

Now, can you please show us where your debating chamber is and how it works?

Christ. On the internet for an hour, second day in a row. Far too much time at a PC.

Again, I invite you all, and I would really hope that some of you lot, can make it to the open meeting. You can say so much more face to face than on the web.

PHB

You claimed earlier that you were aware of the irony, yet you continue to exhibt such silly mis conceptions like,

And hey, if the boards.ie politics board moderators can get a thousand people to show up at a street party, in real life that is, not a 'cyber-party' but ACTUAL PEOPLE interacting HUMANLY with each other, then I'll buy you a pint.

Perhaps if you took a more professional approach your movement would actually get somewhere.

bonkey

Originally posted by redflaremist
What "propaganda" is this exactly?

Every time RTS is mentioned on these fora, a defendant of it tells us how popular it is, and how its popularity is rapidly and constantly growing.

You, on the other hand, are telling us that after several years of existence, the RTS presence in Dublin is in-and-around 12 people.

That is neither popular, nor indicative of rapid growth.

RTS may organise popular street-parties, but thats a completely different thing to say.

Therefore, by my book, any such claims to the popularity of the movement must be nothing but spin/propaganda.

And hey, if the boards.ie politics board moderators can get a thousand people to show up at a street party, in real life that is, not a 'cyber-party' but ACTUAL PEOPLE interacting HUMANLY with each other, then I'll buy you a pint.

You do realise that you are saying that the people posting messages on boards.ie are not ACTUAL PEOPLE, and that they're not HUMAN???

Now, can you please show us where your debating chamber is and how it works?

Read this thread. It will show you where to go, and explain what it is meant to be.

Christ. On the internet for an hour, second day in a row. Far too much time at a PC.

JC will do thanks

If an hour a day, for two days is too much for you, then I think its safe to say you havent any intention in getting involved in an online debate.

I dunno - I can't figure out why you (as an RTS supporter) wouldn't be a fervent supporter of the internet.

After all, the internet enables technology like telecommuting. Not only would this massively reduce traffic on the roads (one of your goals I believe), but it could also serve as the perfect catalyst to encourage an increase in community-based social interaction (another one of your aims) as the natural replacement for any loss of workplace interaction.

But no....you'd rather diss the internet, and have us all travel on the streets to get to our workplace, and then lob insults at some of us for being somehow sub-human for actually choosing to use the technology.

You can say so much more face to face than on the web.

That may be true for you, but you shouldn't make the fallacious assumption that it is true for everyone. I know many people who are far more capable of carrying out a conversation over the 'net then in person. But I guess they don't matter to you.

I would also point out that while I live in Switzerland, I can't exactly call into your meetings. I would imagine the same would mostly apply for those living outside the greater Dublin area.

But again....you seem to think its better to insult these people for using the one enabling technology they have to easily communicate with you, and imply that the better option is that they travel on the streets you want to reclaim in order to meet you to discuss how to get them and their ilk off the streets.

And if you're wondering why I'm being so hostile....its because I don't take too kindly to implications that I'm somehow sub-human because I choose to discuss things with people who are half a continent away.

jc

chewy

its not about how many people organise it but how many turn up on the day [we're not trying to be popular ]

its funny most people were turned off protest cause they wer ein the 80's /90's boring placade waiving events with speeches by self importnat people you couldn't here because of bad pa systems rts and we are trying to change that and your complaining ?

we tried to introduce fun you now saying its not policitical enough

i think most people prefer carnival type protests

but yes i think rts in ireland/dublin is on turning point at first it was esatblishing the idea of a different type of party protest was a political and anarchistic enough process in itself, now thats it a twice yearly thing we might have to look at the politics and follow through of the rts events

chewy

at one point somebody said that the reduction in cars on the streets improvement in quyality of life objectives of rts would happen if most people wanted it, and because they haven't it obviously is not something a majortiy are concerned about ...

[25th November 2002 - 90% of residents in 10 major Irish cities and towns, including Dublin, Cork and
Galway, have said they think the current patterns of car use in towns are a problem. That is according
to independent research on attitudes towards Car Free Day 2002, commissioned by Sustainable
Energy Ireland and published today. The research, based on 1007 telephone interviews, was carried
out by Lansdowne Market Research. 83% of residents surveyed said that car use must be limited to
improve the freedom of movement in cities and towns.]

???

Annasopra

originally posted by Chewy
i post the developing rts the streets debates on boards.ie cos i recognise the business of it

but how do you expect us to reply to 6500 people eh when the about dozen + rts regulars ?

I think that what chewy was trying to say here was there are approximately 6500 boards.ie users around a dozen+ of whom would support the rts movement. From my understanding he was not saying that the rts movement consists of a dozen+ people. he was saying that there are a dozen plus people who are regulars on boards.ie who support the rts movement .

I may be wrong but this is my understanding

Sand

Its fairly meaningless though isnt it? Robbie Willaims got how many thousands to show up to his "carnival"? He can attach some personality cult style politics to himself and describe it as a successful movement? RTS keeps the politics low key and stresses the fun, party, and carnival atmosphere to get the punters in and suddenly claim theyre part of the movement when the vast majority showed up for a laugh and something a bit different. The RTS is often unable to prevent its "parties" devolving into riots in which the partygoers engage in ironically contradictory acts (i.e. thrashing independant ( non- corporate ) bookstores and polluting the enviroment by burning matresses in bonfires ) and indeed the RTS has been turned on by at least one crowd with its "handlers" being attacked and beaten by partygoers. Theyve so little control over these parties that they cant honestly claim to speak in any fashion whatsoever for the participants and yet they continue to spout rhetoric about cars, public space and so on.

The lack of control probably fits in with the " We had nothing to do with it, and were not accepting any responsibility" attitude of the RTS but its not a political movement, its a unofficial carnival. It carries no more meaningful a message of where peoples political views lie than an impromtu U2 concert on top of a US cornershop. You can be certain quite a lot of the crowd who clapped and danced to Bono would hold completely opposite views to the man. Was Bono reclaiming the streets? Or was he just having some fun - would the crowd have known any different? Or cared?

The attention theyre getting is far in excess of what they deserve imo - Id reckon half the reason they wont co-operate with the police in making the party safe is that they know theyll vanish to page 37 news. No doubt their parties and imagery will be co-opted by the corporate enemy in some cutting edge risque advertising campaign at some point in the future. Sticking it to the man has always sold cars, soft drinks and jeans after all.

Turnip

Originally posted by Sand
No doubt their parties and imagery will be co-opted by the corporate enemy in some cutting edge risque advertising campaign at some point in the future. Sticking it to the man has always sold cars, soft drinks and jeans after all.

It's happened already. Papa Roach and Avril Lavigne have both done videos that use the RTS idea of turning up in a street putting on a show and making a run for it when 'the man' shows up. Youth culture has always been co-opted, repackaged and sold to people like Sand here who probably thinks he's immune to advertising. Anyway, at least RTS aren't selling anything. I don't buy the smash capitalism rubbish. It just can't be taken seriously, but wanting to retain public space and get cars off the streets are noble ideas imo. The scum who ignore available alternative modes of transport and make everyone late for work cost this country's economy dearly every year in terms of lost productivity. They're the ones who really annoy me.

Sand

It's happened already. Papa Roach and Avril Lavigne have both done videos that use the RTS idea of turning up in a street putting on a show and making a run for it when 'the man' shows up.

True- Ive seen them but I didnt think of them.

Youth culture has always been co-opted, repackaged and sold to people like Sand here who probably thinks he's immune to advertising.

I think everyone believes theyre cleverer than the advertisers tbh. It doesnt keep me awake at night though, unlike others seemingly, wondering if I *really* wanted that box of cornflakes or whether it was actually subliminal manipulation beamed direct into my home by my good friend the TV.

Anyway, at least RTS aren't selling anything. I don't buy the smash capitalism rubbish. It just can't be taken seriously, but wanting to retain public space and get cars off the streets are noble ideas imo.

Arent they selling something? Theyre selling people the same thing the corporations will co-opt to sell their crap. Sticking it to the man.

The scum who ignore available alternative modes of transport and make everyone late for work cost this country's economy dearly every year in terms of lost productivity. They're the ones who really annoy me.

Agreed but given the immense cost of car insurance, petrol, tax and so on its becoming more and more that people who use cars really need to need them to justify the bills.

Turnip

Originally posted by Sand
I think everyone believes theyre cleverer than the advertisers tbh. It doesnt keep me awake at night though, unlike others seemingly, wondering if I *really* wanted that box of cornflakes or whether it was actually subliminal manipulation beamed direct into my home by my good friend the TV.

True, advertisers are aware that we are more and more resistant to traditional advertising methods. But you should talk to some people who work in the ad industry. It's quite an interesting area.

Arent they selling something? Theyre selling people the same thing the corporations will co-opt to sell their crap. Sticking it to the man.

The man sticks it right back to them sometimes too.

Agreed but given the immense cost of car insurance, petrol, tax and so on its becoming more and more that people who use cars really need to need them to justify the bills.

Yeah but that creates a crazy kind of situation. I mostly only drive at weekends now when it's enjoyable and I'm not worrying about being late going anywhere.

DeVore

STOP!

This isnt a thread about RTS or what it stands for or who it represents.

read this
It explains what I'm talking about.

I'm not suggesting a melee free-for-all. I'm suggesting RTS and its supporters pick three people to argue their case for a week.
Their opposition also pick three people.
One post a day per person. Noone else has access to the debating chamber other then the 6 people involved.
Discussion about the debate can happen in parallel on a different forum set up for that.

At the end of the week the leaders sum-up and two votes are taken, one by the public and one by the judges (Fergus Cassidy of the Tribune, myself and a guest judge (as yet to be confirmed, I'm trying to see if I can interest someone like Senator Norris perhaps... dunno how successful that will be).

Ok, so this is a genuine, controlled platform to state your case and make your points.

DeV.

redflaremist

bonkey:

> I dunno - I can't figure out why you (as an RTS supporter) wouldn't be a fervent supporter of the internet.

Because I think human interaction is better. Internet is good for sharing information, news and contacts, but when it comes to debating abstract concepts and ideas, then its value is virtually zero because it takes ten minutes to type what you would say in one, and also I think people say things on the internet they wouldnt say in real life - usually nasty, narky, rude stuff.

> using the one enabling technology they have to easily communicate with you, and imply that the better option is that they travel on the streets you want to reclaim in order to meet you to discuss how to get them and their ilk off the streets.

As long as they walk or cycle then I dont mind where people go. And I dont want people off the streets (dont know where you got that idea from), I want CARS and other motorised transport off the streets.

Thanks to those who came to the open meeting on Wednesday (no boards.ie people though...?). Lots of good ideas and issues thrashed out, in a frank yet constructive manner... again even if only 4 new people came and talked in person, I would rate their experience and learning infinitely better than the experience anyone would take away from an internet debate (with more viewers).

So I guess thats thanks for the invite into the online debating chamber but I'm turning it down.

Incidentally if you ever want to organise a debate in real life between anti RTS people on boards.ie and RTS then I could get some people along who would be interested in it

I want CARS and other motorised transport off the streets.

Redflaremist,
Completely, you want to do away with them alltogether??
I understand that this is not a thread for discussing this but I'd like some important clarification on that one, and heres where you'll probably see it.

mm

bonkey

Originally posted by redflaremist
Because I think human interaction is better.

Sure...except that you are thinking "Dublin", where others are thinking "Ireland", and I - living abroad as I do - am thinking "world" when it comes to the distances we would have to travel in order to be able to reproduce even what interaction we have here.

because it takes ten minutes to type what you would say in one,

And perish the thought that this might give you more of a chance to word things properly so that they could be understood clearly the first time, or that you could actually put more reflection into your words.

I'm sure thats why people like Naomi Klein don't write books and stuff - because its not worth the time it takes to express their ideas in writing when they could just speak them.

and also I think people say things on the internet they wouldnt say in real life - usually nasty, narky, rude stuff.

Well - thats both a good and bad thing....and the idea of the debating forum is to promote serious and civilised debate....something a but above the regular boards.

Also, maybe its escaped your attention, but there are moderators here who's job it is to deal with the "nasty narky rude stuff" which others take offence to once it gets beyond a certain point. THat point is pretty low. I don't expect people to put on a false facade of friendliness....which they often do in real life....but generally the abuse is kept in check here.

Or is is the lack of false friendliness you don't like? Would you rather I and the other mods of this forum made sure that everyone was as polite as could be to avoid offence-giving? Strangely, that would strike me as putting more of a restraint on the ability to communicate.

> As long as they walk or cycle then I dont mind
> where people go.

Right. And you do know the dimensions of the Dublin conurbation, don't you? You would like people to come to your meeting by foot or bike....despite the fact that they may be living up to 40 miles away and still be in the city/conurbation you are campaigning about.

And I dont want people off the streets (dont know where you got that idea from), I want CARS and other motorised transport off the streets.

And what do people travel to work in??? Cars and other motorised transport perhaps? And if they were staying at home, who would they be communicating with? Off the road, and into the community....but thats not a good idea. No...out of the car, longer on the road, possibly have to move house because you live too far from work to be physically able to do the mileage every day.....now thats the solution.

Yeah...I can see why the internet is of no use to you.

no boards.ie people though...?

Again, see comment about location. I live in Switzerland....did you expect me to turn up? Or those who live outside the Pale, even? Or what about those living in your conurbation but who are only 20 or 30 miles away?

I would rate their experience and learning infinitely better than the experience anyone would take away from an internet debate (with more viewers).

It quite possibly was. On the other hand, maybe if you actually gave yourself a wider audience to try and hook, you'd find that the 4 would turn into 40.

So I guess thats thanks for the invite into the online debating chamber but I'm turning it down.

Thats a pity....and I genuinely mean that. Despite what you may think, I would actually love to hear you guys put your side. I can't speak for any other members here, but I believe there's a lot I could learn from it, and losing a learning opportunity is always something I regret.

Incidentally if you ever want to organise a debate in real life between anti RTS people on boards.ie and RTS then I could get some people along who would be interested in it

If only I lived in Ireland....

jc

DeVore

Thanks to those who came to the open meeting on Wednesday (no boards.ie people though...?). Lots of good ideas and issues thrashed out, in a frank yet constructive manner... again even if only 4 new people came and talked in person, I would rate their experience and learning infinitely better than the experience anyone would take away from an internet debate (with more viewers).

I'm very dissappointed but I'll take this as a no then and thank you for your time.

I think you are wrong about the 4 peoples experience being infinitly better then an online debate. I dont understand why you cant do both. I really dont understand why an organisation such as RTS would turn down any reasonable platform on which to state their case and/or argue their points.

:^/

DeV.

redflaremist

Originally posted by DeVore
I think you are wrong about the 4 peoples experience being infinitly better then an online debate. I dont understand why you cant do both. I really dont understand why an organisation such as RTS would turn down any reasonable platform on which to state their case and/or argue their points.

Just briefly, I'm just one of the people in RTS, the "organisation" (cough) hasnt turned down anything, ME PERSONALLY I just dont like internet debates because they take too much time with typing. Someone else might take up the slack.

And to the person who was talking about living in Switzerland, I think there's an RTS on in Zurich soon (http://switzerland.indymedia.org/frmix/2003/08/13381.shtml) so maybe you might head to that & talk to people there. Your reply (take argument apart, paragraph by paragraph, lots of text) is exactly what I am not inclined to do, because I dont like sitting in front of computers.

I dont think I need to repeat that any more. Any time anyone out there wants to meet for a pint & chat about RTS and your gripes, feel free to get in touch. Or we could always go for a cycle.

chewy

i posted a question about where to find further info on the debate and explaination of how it works , but i can't find that replyy or maybe i didn't post it properly
so anyway

this debate thing oi looked around but didn't see a concise explaination of how it would work could someone point it out to me ? or write one

Boston

who are these RTS people and what right do they have to sprawl their crap all over the walls and public areas where i live? seriously i'd like to know. Though bonkey wasn't serious about his initial comments that do reflect my own thought on this new age hippy problem. I'd be up for a debate, because i seriously want to know what this RTS crowd are all about and why they aren't treated like the low life human waste they have shown themselves to be on so many ocations.

thank you

DeVore

Ok, sorry RFM I thought you were talking for the organisation. Who can I contact who *can* talk for RTS?

DeV.