SBPost Today "Takeup of DSL in Ireland is DISMAL and so say BOTH Esat and Eircom

spongebob

Story . Funny how the Sbpost didn't notice the cumulative affect on the Irish Consumer of:

a)the most EXPENSIVE capped DSL in Europe on top of
b)the ****iest copper lines in Europe at
c) by FAR the HIGHEST line rental price in Europe for all this.

Drop the entry RADSL product to €39.99 including Vat if ye are serious then ye greedy muppets.

M

Cabaal

I could be totally wrong, but did;ent BT in the Uk say this a couple of years back?
Now look at the UK, 71% of the country has DSL!

sigh.. if only they'd get there act together over here.

obewan

Is it not possible for IOFFl to inform the News Media about the high cost/setbacks to the consumer? ANd not only them but us members as well.

Mick.

Cabaal

Originally posted by obewan
Is it not possible for IOFFl to inform the News Media about the high cost/setbacks to the consumer?

I'm sure they can to a certain extent

But when it comes down to it, these people are reporters and what are reporters supposed to do??............ah yes research things and get there facts right.
Obviously these people can't

Eurorunner

these people are reporters and what are reporters supposed to do??............ah yes research things and get there facts right.

Article attributed to Adrian Weckler - Editor of SBP's monthly IT magazine.

Email him here if you wish to enlighten him ref. 'dismal' irish DSL take up.

shinzon

E-mail Sent

regards

Shin

Eurorunner

Lets make sure adrian weckler is given the opportunity to put this right at some stage.

________________

Email Sent
_________________


Dear Mr. Weckler,

With regard to your recent article in the recent edition of the Sunday Business Post (Aug 17, 2003 - m8), I would like to draw your attention to a couple of points of interest;


- Irish consumers are no different than their European counterparts with regard to DSL take-up. Take-up is influenced by two main factors:
1. Availability
2. Pricing

The Eircom spin doctors will be able to point out some amazing 'statistics' with regard to both of these points but reality is somewhat different. They will inform you of the numerous thousands of lines they have 'enabled'. However, if you take some time out to scan through the experiences of this group of internet users (link below), you will see there are plenty of issues with regard to 'line testing' in many instances in these so-called 'enabled' lines.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?forumid=60


A comparison of pricing with other European countries will show that Eircom (through their control of the telecommms infrastructure) have insured that we are well above average in this respect. The experience of operators in other countries has shown that once the price of ADSL drops to a trigger level of on average €30, people will sign up in their thousands (this, assuming that the service has actually been made available to them). That, coupled with the fact that we have the highest telephone line rental in Europe - leaves people with a large monthly telecoms outgoing.


Clearly, Gareth Pelly and the Broadband4Kinnegad campaign are to be commended for being proactive about this. However, at the same time it is unfortunate that the large telecoms companies sit back, failing in their responsibility to deliver adequate internet access to irish consumers. The fact of the matter is that Broadband4Kinnegad wouldnt need to exist if the Eircom/Esat duopoly were fulfilling the service that they pretend to provide.

In conclusion, I suggest that it would be of interest to your readership if you also provided coverage of the other side of the coin...the anti-competitive practices of Eircom in the marketplace and the sham that is Irish internet access provision.

Yours Sincerely,

---

shinzon

Ive just read ytour article in the Sunday business post and am disappointed in the content of this article.

I wish journalists would actually focus on the real problem at hand and that is the last mile monopoly that Eircom has on the copper in this country and the absolutely abysmal state of that copper as well.

I live in a relatively large estate in Waterford city and rang Eircom the Day there RADSL product was released to be told that yes theres no problem with the line and i could get the DSL service if i so wished, 10 days later i went to order this service only to be told the lines failed and it has stayed like that to this day, i have e-mailed Dr philip Nolan CEO of Eircom numerous times, he has passed me on the his personal assistant, she passes it onto someone else ETC ETC ETC and so on and so on, I have also e-mailed the communications regulator www.comreg.ie on more than several occasions only to be tole that theres nothing they can do for me either, I e-mailed the government only to be met by a similar brick wall.

The state of play is this Eircom has let the copper in my estate degrade to sucjh a level that DSL is now inpossible for me and for the estate, ive asked them to sort this out only to be told that DSL is not part of the Universal service agreement and that all eircoms obliged to supply me with is voice and fax calls only, internet if you can get it is a bonus only it seems.

So while your reporting on worthy causes like the broadband for kinnegad campaign who hasnt got a DSL exchange, please spare a though for those who are in an enabled exchange but cant get it,

Perhaps you should pass a glance over the irelandoffline forms here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?forumid=60

and you can see this very real problem of high failure rate of the lines in BB enabled areas, a specific example other than my own would be a friend of mine whose line passed the initial pre-qual tests for BB only to be told his exchange, tycor in Waterford was not BB enabled, 2 months later it came on stream and when he came back to etest for the line it failed which i find very very suspicious in the extreme.

I hope this enlightens to the real story of the dismal take up of DSL in ireland, its not that nobody wants it, its that the vast majority just cannot get it, ill leave you with this one final thread from the broadband forum on www.boards.ie about line failures

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110186


Shin

God my spelling has gone very bad

pencil

Don't have the time to be as eloquent as the rest of you but here is my efford:


Sir,

I have just read you article in the Sunday Business Post (17/08/03).

As someone who has yet to avail of ADSL technology at home, I sit here in amazement at the poor level of research that went in to your article.

As a website designer I would dearly love to avail of this method of broadband delivery but cannot because of the very high cost involved.

In the UK and across Europe uncapped DSL is available for approx €30 per month, here in Ireland it is €50 Euro per month PLUS a line rental fee of €20 per month (not to mention connection fees).

Ask yourself this one question, if web-savvy people who's professional life involves interacting online are not prepared to pay €70 per month (€840 per annum) for DSL, why should EIRCOM or ESAT expect anything else but a dismal take up from the general population.

Sir, I would be grateful if you could write an article with this as your theme.

Yours,

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by Muck
Drop the entry RADSL product to €39.99 including Vat if ye are serious then ye greedy muppets.

I say drop it to €29.99 inc. VAT if you are serious. And have a free modem/free install promo.

Considering the cost of line rental, this will still be quite a bit more expensive than many of our neighbours, but at this price I can see quite a lot of takeup. At €39.99, while takeup would no doubt improve, I can not see any mass takeup yet.

Mr_Man

Folks,

telling someone they haven't done their job properly is unlikely to endear you, or your position, to them.

While the article is disappointing from people who have, like myself, been trying for years to get BB it is reporting what Eircom and Esat have apparently said.

I'd (again) suggest that IOFFL respond to this article by writing to the Editor of the SBP and point out the issues with price and availability. This is more likely to get published since it is coming from a well recognised body, and can be considered a right to reply on behalf of the poor consumers of Ireland. The letter could be based on those already submitted if time pressure is the issue.

Just my 2c.

M.

Eurorunner

telling someone they haven't done their job properly is unlikely to endear you, or your position, to them.

I agree..although its difficult to restrain oneself from pointing out that this is a clear example of an unbalanced piece of journalism.....

Although could very well be a number of reasons for this...

Could be that Adrian Weckler is unaware that there is another side to this (although i doubt it)...

For all we know, he may have been chomping at the bit to include the other aspect to this story but is restrained from doing so...the €ircon advertising account must be worth a fair bit to them annually.

Absolute speculation...but you can be sure that stuff works like this...just like the rubbish (in praise of €ircon) that the independent printed the other week...which they were probably pushed into churning out.

DeVore

Wheres JMCC when you need him to rant about IT Journos...


DeV.

ando

That report is short and pathetic

dahamsta

From: adam beecher
Sent: 17 August 2003 18:05
To: [email]adrian@sbpost.ie[/email]
Subject: RE: Irish DSL take-up is `dismal' 


Hi Adrian,

I have enormous respect for you as a writer since your piece on our
imaginary "eMinister" last year. You might be interested to know that the
anniversary of that article was just last month, and I took great pleasure
in posting a tribute to it on Boards.ie at the time:

[url]http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=104541[/url]

However I have to say that I'm a little disappointed by your piece in this
Sunday's Post. At this stage you've already received a few angry missives
about the article from my fellow IrelandOffline members, so I won't repeat
what they have to say, I'll just provide a few questions you might like to
ask those ever-so-helpful PR people you talked to:

 - Your article says that the products in Ireland are "cheap broadband
technology", however it would be interesing to hear the spokespersons
responses if you asked them where Ireland stood in European and global
broadband league tables, both on takeup and price. You might see a
connection.

 - Your article says that triggers are a "new" mechanism, however it's been
in place for at least two years in the UK. Perhaps the spokespersons could
explain why they haven't thought of it until now? Better yet, ask Bill
Murphy, he should be able to get access to the source code via BT, and he
promised that he'd have something like this on his site last year.

 - Ask the spokespersons how the mechanism will work. Will they allow Comreg
or IrelandOffline or another independent third-party oversee the mechanism
to see it's being implemented correctly and fairly? When will they set
trigger levels and how will they calculate these? Will they work with
independent registries like broadband4kinnegad, and provide them with
marketing material and the like (as BT do in the UK)?

 - Ask the Eircom spokesperson what the pass/fail ratio is on their lines.
Ask them if they'll call Comreg and tell them that it's ok for you to
confirm this detail with them. Reel in surprise as they change the subject.

Here's another few questions you might like to ask, to add a little scope to
your piece:

 - Ask Comreg why they felt it necessary to effectively /lower/ Eircom's
data service obligation (USO) from 2.4k to 0k when their opposite in the UK
recently decided to raise it for /two/ SMP's to 28.8k:

[url]http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=106739[/url]

 - Ask Comreg why Eircom is still allowed to include marketing material in
their bills, even if the customer is no longer using Eircom for voice or
data. If Eircom are going to be allowed to continue this, will Comreg order
Eircom to allow other operators and ISP's distribute marketing in this
manner?

 - Ask Eircom why their proposed flat-rate product (it's not actually
flat-rate, but that's an argument for another day) is going to be the worst
value of all products offered in Ireland.

[url]http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110072[/url]

Finally, if you do write a follow-up piece, feel free to mention that two
Boards.ie members (myself and 'niallb') have offered free hosting for
broadband4 sites, and I personally will register broadband4 domain names for
cost. You don't need to mention our names, it's not a marketing thing:

[url]http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=110087[/url]

Thanks for your time Adrian.

adam 'dahamsta' beecher

__________________________________
When  cryptography  is  outlawed,
bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.

dahamsta

DeV, he hasn't laid into Eoin about the stalled list thread on Open either, he must be on holiday.

adam 'lame zones' dahamsta

[EDIT: By the way folks, don't let us stop you writing to Adrian yourself. Criticising his writing is probably a bad idea and an email just saying "you suck" is just downright rude, but if you're angry, well, tell him. He can't respond to that anger unless he knows it exists. An email just saying "Adrian, your article made me really mad/sad and I wish you'd follow up on it with a more balanced approach" would do just fine.]

sceptre

Originally posted by Mr_Man
telling someone they haven't done their job properly is unlikely to endear you, or your position, to them.

While the article is disappointing from people who have, like myself, been trying for years to get BB it is reporting what Eircom and Esat have apparently said.

I tend to agree for the above reason and:

It's fine and dandy to write to the journo and tell him that his article was rubbish BUT there's no great gain in doing so. The obvious solutino is to write a letter to the editor telling him that the article was one-sided or wrong or whatever. You'll gain two things by doing so. Firstly you're effectively complaining to the guys boss. Secondly if you can keep the ranting to a minimum (or at least coherent) you may get your letter printed. Better that than someone either ignoring it or potentially sweeping it under the rug. Attack the article, not the journalist.

The "Leters to the Editor" address for the Post seems to be sbpost@iol.ie btw.

Oh and please, anyone thinking of coming out here with a "journalist should resign blah blah" mini-rant, please don't. You've got an outlet for that - write to the editor OR to the journalist if you must. Posting that kind of mindless babble here just makes us all look dumb[1].


[1] I hereby present exhibit A: a preemptive strike against babble.
(though in fairness IT journalists are two-a-penny and very few of them seem to know all that much about IT. Contrast Karlin with Jamie)

[edit: I agree with what Adam said in his last post (the bit after "Edit". There's nothing wrong with writing to Adrian as well if you've actually got something to say. This one isn't an idiot so don't pretend he is. He probably welcomes intelligent discourse and all that.

dahamsta

WRECKLER SHOULD RESIGN!

Contrast Karlin with Jamie.

Eh? They're both pretty clued-in, I just don't like Jamie's style.

adam

sceptre

Originally posted by dahamsta
Eh? They're both pretty clued-in, I just don't like Jamie's style.

Actually I take that one back. I'm criticising Jamie too much for the "BBC goes FTA on satellite" stuff. Put a different person's name in there instead.

spongebob

Don't give me an opportunity to tell yiz all (again) what I think of Jamie. He is simply a press release in the first person extrusion system that calls itself a journalist !

Xian

Originally posted by Mr_Man
I'd (again) suggest that IOFFL respond to this article by writing to the Editor of the SBP and point out the issues with price and availability. This is more likely to get published since it is coming from a well recognised body

In fact no. Sceptre's letter in the indo recently is yet another example how it is more important that a letter is relevant, cogent and reasoned than who it comes from. If you feel something needs to be said (as you apparently do) then it's your responsibililty to say it.

dahamsta

But IrelandOffline and the individual members of the committee will still be writing, obviously...?

adam

pork99

It would be nice if they could get the 20% of capacity they have already sold to work properly.

My Clicksilver DSL fell over on Saturday night for a couple of hours, came back, fell over again on Sunday morning. By Sunday afternoon the phones also stopped working.

Phoned UTVIP who told me that because the phone lines were completely dead then it was an eircom problem. I was onto Eircom support this morning and bounced around the place -

UTVip; "your line is screwed - ring eircom"

Eircom help desk; "thats a DSL line; ring 1890 260260"

Eircom DSL helpdesk; "thats UTVip - we can't do anything, we only service eircom dsl, ring 1901 and report the line fault"

back to Eircom help desk; "thats a DSL line; ring 1890 260260"

and so on ad infinitum

Xian

Originally posted by dahamsta
But IrelandOffline and the individual members of the committee will still be writing, obviously...?

We do our best to correct the spin that's fed to the media, yes. My point, though, is that that "obviously" shouldn't stop people from responding if they feel something needs to be said, thinking "no worries, the committee will pick up on this so I don't need to". Sometimes it isn't so "obvious" because we don't have the resources to respond at that time, in which cases a member's decision not to write means the spin goes through uncorrected.

Dangger

I have been in contact with Adrian today over the phone and via mail.

dahamsta

Thanks Xian.

adam

Eurorunner

Isnt it better if everyone responds in their own way and makes their own views known. Preferably, taking the time out to provide a considered response - but at the end of the day, people shouldnt feel discouraged from responding if they dont feel that they can put in something as comprehensive as dahamsta's response for example.

Correct me if im wrong here, but if you have a lot of people taking the time out to respond, the receiver - in this case adrian weckler - is more likely to take notice.

If this stuff is left to one or two individuals - however eloquently put - it does not make the same statement as a higher volume response...including the comprehensive and not-so-comprehensive. Maybe only the comprehensive responses will be reviewed but the strength of feeling will be noted.

For me it boils down to this:

Do you want an IOFFL where the few are expected to do all, or an IOFFL where all contribute in their own way...

Mr_Man

The reason I have repeatedly suggested that IOFFL respond officially to the mis-information being put out by the Telecos is that an 'official' communique will carry more weight than a letter from an individual.

IOFFL has spent a lot of time building up a positive presence in the internet/bb space in Ireland and I feel that this should be exploited and reinforced by responding in a calm and rational manner to the PR from the telecos.

If the committee is overworked then I'm sure there are others who could write the mail/letter and pass it on for approval by the relevant committee members.

All of this could/should be backed up by individuals expressing their opinions. Having spent so much time buiding up the IOFFL brand why not make use of it to get the 'truth' out to the general public.

Just my 2c

M.

dahamsta

You probably missed Dannger's post Mr_Man -- he's been in touch with Adrian today. I agree with your post though, lobbying and refutation should be done at both grassroots and "political" levels.

adam

sceptre

Originally posted by Eurorunner
For me it boils down to this:

Do you want an IOFFL where the few are expected to do all, or an IOFFL where all contribute in their own way...

Oh second one certainly. And I agree with the rest of your post.

dahamsta

Adrian asked me to post this.

adam

Please excuse me for not answering you all individually. I though this might be a more appropriate forum.

Firstly, thank you to most of you who spelled my name right. I have a file with incorrect spellings. Winkler. Whackler. Wankler (not kidding). Wrecker. Even Wooster (that one from an English PR lady).

And thank you to most of you who kept it civil. Even after letting off some steam on the threads.

The points made were thoughtful, provocative and clearly borne out of experience.

In fact, most correspondence I received revolved around people's personal experience with line failure. And there was fury on show, plain to see. A lesser number were angry about prices. The third most common complaint was the download caps.

The main question from the figures I published -- which showed truly awful adoption of DSL -- is: why? Most answered the question with one or more of the following reasons:

1. Price - near the top of the expense league in Europe
2. Line failure - Even where demand exists, frequently they are told their line has "failed". This leads to obvious questions about the quality of the copper network.

3. Poor advertising and marketing

One possible reason that no-one argued, although I'll air it myself, is that the operators, especially Eircom, may have a lot to lose if, say, all of its ISDN customers transferred over to one of its DSL products. This leaves it open to charges of strangling the technology at birth.

But even given all of these valid reasons, can anyone explain why, out of a possible figure of over 500,000, less than about 5,500 people in Ireland signed up to a DSL line? (Confirmed figures of 2,400 Esat BT DSL sales, 3,000 Eircom sales is my own estimate.)

I mean, even if there was a zero per cent line failure rate, what would that make it -- 11,000? 11,000 expressions of interest including -- and this is what blows me away -- the small business sector? This is the same sector which pays about the same for, say, two ISDN lines in their offices? Sure, the advertising may be bad, but THAT bad?

Even with all of the setbacks of Irish operators' DSL products over other Europeans', it's still a much better deal than ISDN or the ridiculously-priced leased line market. So why the hell don't small businesses -- in particular -- go for it?

For one possible explanation, try this: ask your parents, or uncles or aunts, or any family or friends over the age of 45 what DSL is. Now, I realise that this is a particularly tech-literate environment. Still, give it a go.

My own theory is that most Irish people -- who are indisputedly late adopters to technology -- don't really give a damn about broadband. Sorry, but there it is. Yep, I know. Tech 'journalist' and all that. But think outside your own circles, for a second. And be honest in the answer.

Anyway, back to the article. I've written quite a lot about DSL in Ireland. Most of it on the issue of high prices, line failure and the operators' attitude toward it.

Had I had more space, I would have gone into the issue in more depth. But I didn't. So there you go.

Anyway, thanks for e-mailing me. I'll be doing a follow-up in about three weeks, a bigger article. In the monthly IT magazine we publish.

I'll certainly keep all the points raised in this forum in mind.

Cheers,

Adrian