SBPost Today "Takeup of DSL in Ireland is DISMAL and so say BOTH Esat and Eircom

shinzon

Please excuse me for not answering you all individually. I though this might be a more appropriate forum.
<snippy snippy>

Hmm i like this mans thinking at least he had the decency to reply to all of us in here, I take his valid points about broadband onboard, but perhaps the reason that small businesses dont take it up is because they already have a proven tecnology installed mainly ISDN, so whats the point of having to pay to downgrade for a more expensive unproven at least in ireland technology when they already have one that works for there needs.

To quote someone

"People are afraid of change"

hope some of the points raised do appear in his extended article in 3 weeks time, and he should send a copy of this article to Phil Nolan so he can get off his arse and do something

Shin

Mod edit: all I snipped was the article to save on some RSI - sceptre

dahamsta

Err, shinzon, you had to actually copy and paste that whole bit from my post into yours, why would you do that? It's just, like, up there?

I'm off out for more pints (yaay) so I don't have a chance to reply to Adrian properly, but I did want to pick up on one point before I leave. Unfortunately it's a somewhat negative point, so my apologies to Adrian in advance. I promise to be more constructive in future.

One possible reason that no-one argued, although I'll air it myself, is that the operators, especially Eircom, may have a lot to lose if, say, all of its ISDN customers transferred over to one of its DSL products. This leaves it open to charges of strangling the technology at birth.

The first word that popped into my head upon reading that, after a quiet giggle, was "duh". I'm not being nasty, but it's probably what many people here thought too. I think the reason people mightn't have said it to you is because it's been covered here so many times, over and over again, that at this stage it's pretty much "stating the bleeding obvious". There are probably many more things that we think of in this way, so hopefully IrelandOffline and it's members will take this opportunity to state them now while they have the chance.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply to us, and I hope that the time you'll (hopefully) spend here over the next few days will convince you to sign up to Boards and join in sometime in future. If you do, I imagine it can only be a matter of time before we see a request for a private forum for technology writers here. We have a fair stock of lurkers already.

adam /waves at karlin, fergus, bernie, et al

shinzon

I keep forgetting boards netiquette, that you dont have to quote the whole thing over if my posts directly under the thing thats posted

My bad

Shin

oscarBravo

You don't ever need to quote the whole thing, just enough to show context.

Eurorunner

Firstly, cheers to Adrian for taking the time out to respond.

My own theory is that most Irish people -- who are indisputedly late adopters to technology -- don't really give a damn about broadband. Sorry, but there it is. Yep, I know. Tech 'journalist' and all that. But think outside your own circles, for a second. And be honest in the answer.

Yes, he does have a point here...although, if we - as the would-be early adopters - cant get a hold of the technology, then theres little chance of mainstream people being converted. The best form of marketing is word of mouth...i know i would recommend ADSL to anyone and everyone if it was available to them...and im sure that everyone that stops by boards.ie would also reel in converts to this 'new':rolleyes: technology.

Anyway, thanks for e-mailing me. I'll be doing a follow-up in about three weeks, a bigger article. In the monthly IT magazine we publish.

Look forward to checkin it out:D

dahamsta

By the way Adrian, if you want to help Irish consumers, take a look at this thread. Tens of thousands of people have probably paid a hundred euros or more for a phone they could buy in the shops for ten or fifteen euros. The only reason they continue doing so is because they don't know any better. How about putting 160,000 of them into the picture?

adam

dahamsta

I'm just going to keep tacking stuff on here. I'm surprised and just a teeny-weeny bit disappointed that other people aren't...

Here's another one for you Adrian, have a look at this post, specifically this bit: "... was hung up on once ...".

I spend a lot of time on this forum and at the beginning I just brushed these claims aside, thinking that the people making them were just suffering as the result of temper-tantrums. It happened to me once for precisely that reason, although I would say in my defense that the tantrum was caused by the obtuse and elusive behaviour of the Eircom rep.

It's not just tantrums though, as I discovered shortly after that first time, they actually do hang up on you if they can't answer a question, even if you're being as polite as you possibly can with them. I'm not talking about harassing them, I'm talking about simple questions like, "Can you tell me when my exchange will be upgraded please?" or, "I've checked my wiring and there's definitely nothing wrong".

A search for the word hung on this forum - an unusual word that's only used to refer to what we'd like to /do/ to these people only very occasionally - yields 53 results, many of them scripted to give the reader context. Which brings us back to the "quality" issue I hope Dave has relayed to you by now.

Quality my arse.

adam

swoofer

The reason BB is not taking off is

IT IS TOO EXPENSIVE

and that's it.

People can see what those in the UK are paying, see all the english newspapers and magazines and say "Why should I pay through the nose, I'll just wait and wait and the market will kick in.

The way it is being presented u would think we were flying. CARDIFF has a population of about 450,000 and I would lay a pound to a penny that it will take Ireland at least 2 years to reach their present day BB figures.

gbcullen.

dahamsta

We've been saying that for years now GBCULLEN, but how do you account for Adrian's assertion that price doesn't matter for business?

adam

Eurorunner

but how do you account for Adrian's assertion that price doesn't matter for business?

my two cents on the above...theres a business culture in ireland of accepting (and not challenging) the high prices for the products/services that they purchase....but at the end of the day tacking on their own excess - passing this on to their own customers. Who can name any one business sector thats cheaper in ireland than most of the other EU member states?

Dont want to take the thread off-topic ...just address this particular point. (and i know some will not be impressed with this but in terms of retail sales and services, where do we get a better deal in comparison to whats offered by our neighbours)



except petrol!!

nahdoic

Hi Adrian,

Thank you for replying to mine and I'm sure everyone's mail. Much appreciated and speaks volumes - very courteous. I hope you take the next step and register at boards.ie, so you won’t need to use adam as your emissary.

One possible reason that no-one argued, although I'll air it myself, is that the operators, especially Eircom, may have a lot to lose if, say, all of its ISDN customers transferred over to one of its DSL products. This leaves it open to charges of strangling the technology at birth.

Addressing an Oireachtas sub-committee, Nolan dismissed suggestions by Labour TD Tommy Broughan that Eircom had sought to protect market position by creating a broadband "logjam." enn

Good old Phil. He would say that, wouldn’t he …

My own theory is that most Irish people -- who are indisputedly late adopters to technology - - don't really give a damn about broadband. Sorry, but there it is. Yep, I know. Tech 'journalist' and all that. But think outside your own circles, for a second. And be honest in the answer.

You’re absolutely right. And we don’t even have to use guesswork here, according to Broadband Market In Ireland - June 27 2003 we can see that 55% of home internet users said they weren’t interested in broadband. But even more astounding is that 42% are already interested in broadband! At a time when less than 1% of home internet users actually have broadband, that’s phenomenal.



But even given all of these valid reasons, can anyone explain why, out of a possible figure of over 500,000, less than about 5,500 people in Ireland signed up to a DSL line? (Confirmed figures of 2,400 Esat BT DSL sales, 3,000 Eircom sales is my own estimate.)

What exactly were you or these industry ‘experts’ expecting? Service launched. Wham. Bam. Thank you Ma’am. Everyone’s hooked up? It doesn’t work like that.



It’s going to take time. It’s growing steadily now. After the market matures next year. I’d say it will be nearing it’s saturation point at that price point. Then the only way to expand the market further will be to reduce the price. Once the price is reduced then it’s time for full marketing campaigns. It’s completely pointless marketing a product that the majority will simply never be prepared to pay. Although 42% of internet users are interested in broadband, only 17% of internet users are interested in a service that costs E55 a month, with a E199 install charge.



On average, a home internet users expect to pay E34 a month. If we can reach this price threshold, broadband in Ireland will really start to take off. And it will be time for major marketing campaigns.



Ireland is so far behind other countries in terms of internet usage and broadband, that we just can’t wait around for the next cut in broadband prices. We need it now if we have any chance of catching up.

De Rebel

Originally posted by nahdoic
.............

Very impressive post. Please copperfasten it by quoting the source of thise charts. Well done.

dahamsta

They're all linked to the sources De Rebel. Well done nahdoic, points well made.

adam

Dangger

Great stuff nahdoic!

Thank you.

swoofer

Its a shame really when u get a national paper like SBP written for the business community and not telling it how it is about Broadband. It should be a front page headline but then what about the advertising impact.

Everywhere I read items about BB it they only tell a bit of the story. I would dispute all these claims about who knows about BB especially with the influx of UK television. I bet laods have applied and got fobbed off or considered the start up charge prohibitive.

Ah well maybe Adrian will do a good piece in a few weeks time.

gbcullen

LoBo

Nahdoic:
Succint & Charteriffic. POTM material.

Well done

Jorinn

Say 500,000 lines are enabled. Then take your average buiness, they WILL have more than one line, maybe 5, 10, 100 or 500. If you have a business with 500 lines there's not a chance in hell DSL would be sufficient, they'd want a leased line, theirs no point in enabling dsl for them, they won't buy it anyway.

Eurorunner

If you have a business with 500 lines there's not a chance in hell DSL would be sufficient, they'd want a leased line, theirs no point in enabling dsl for them, they won't buy it anyway.

Agreed...but what about your common garden variety small business. A DSL line WOULD be beneficial to them. Is there anyone here a member of the small firms association - dont they have this (affordable broadband) as one of their objectives - and if not why the hell not.

Mr_Man

Don't forget it was IBEC who came out no so long ago and backed Eircom against Comreg on the issue of the LLU charges. While IBEC are not exactly representative of small businesses it does give some insight into the mindsent.

M.

BKtje

Small business i work for got DSL as soon as it was available. We've never looked back and has changed the way business is done here to a certain extent.

I know that we are a minority tho.

azi

1. Price

2. It's not being advertised! (except eircoms mouse campaign)

3. At least EsatBT seem to try to actively discourage potential customers from signing up for the service. From my recent experience, signing up for EsatBTs product is more hassle than trying to change your name by deed poll.

a) four pages of forms to fill in and fax back (hi-tech indeed!)

b) other accompanying paperwork (letterheads, PO)

c) they won't unbundle the DSL modem, even though I have my own and can get them cheaper.

d) the newest status is: they won't put it through until I fax them an eircom bill (which will take TWO MONTHS as it is a NEW LINE!) Whatever for, I haven't a notion - they have both PSTN and A/C number.

In defence of eircom, all it takes with them is a phone call and -voila- 10 working days later the man comes and puts the splitter in. My new analogue line was installed the next working day - surprised the hell out of me :-)

Does anyone have a phone no. or email address for their sales director? Methinks it's arse-kicking time...

azi.

DonegalMan

Originally posted by Eurorunner
...theres a business culture in ireland of accepting (and not challenging) the high prices (and) passing this on to their own customers.

It's not quite as simple as that, Euro.

All businesses constantly strive to reduce costs but there are two important factors in this:

1. The reduction must be worth the effort that is required; telecoms costs, whilst they can be significant in absolute terms, represent a small proportion of total costs for most businesses, busy managers chase after the areas of highest cost where the most savings can be achieved.
2. The savings have to be realisable - as a businessman, I can (and do:)) fight all the time with my commercial suppliers to get their prices to me reduced, but who can I tackle with regard to telecoms costs? Most businesses leave this sort of stuff to organisations like IBEC and SFA who, IMO, have failed miserably in regard to telecoms.

You are right in your underlying point that high costs to business get passed on to customers, but don't forget that the reverse is also true; in today's competitive world with the constant pressure to offer best possible prices (except monoplies or near-monopolies like Eircom), any cost reduction a company can achieve eventually gets passed on in reduced prices.

I think that lack of availabilty is the biggest factor affecting price here. Any business who understands the benefit of Broadband will pay almost any price they have to in order to get it, particularly as ADSL, even at it's current excessive cost, is only a fraction of a leased line cost. The only thing that will reduce prices is for the market to grow and attract more suppliers into it - something of a 'chicken and egg' situation I know, but no different from other technologies in the past - anyone remember the price of the first Fax machines, the first VCR's, the first mobile phones, etc.?


Martin Harran

dahamsta

Hi Martin. Good to see you still lurking here.

I've been staying out of this because I wanted to see what other people had to say first. Only a few have bothered for some strange reason, but they've rounded up a few valid reasons, most of the appropriate ones in fact. Here's my opinion. I'll put price aside for the most part because nahdoic's covered it so well, and because I've been hanging around here so long it's preaching to the choir.

I think azi has an extremely valid point about the marketing and sales channels. The difficulties s/he's had trying to sign up for a service might sound like a typical case of unusual-set-of-circumstances-leading-to-bad-press, but this sadly isn't true. As I posted recently, even the staff have difficulty signing up for service via internal communications channels, so what hope have people outside? We can't really hold this against the employees of EsatBT, though, because bureacracy is endemic in the company. Bill Murphy seems incapable of correcting it.

Eircom, surprisingly, isn't as bad as EsatBT, but they're really only a couple of rolls (of red tape) away from first place. They improved their sales channel in the few years when it was a publicly-traded company, but since it's gone private the quality has started to wane seriously. Eircom trained their staff to sideline xDSL and push ISDN as if it was mannah from heaven, but the company is on a razor's edge at the moment and isn't gearing up for change; they don't need to be able to spin on a dime, but they need to perform better than a cruise ship.

Nowhere is this more apparent than in the marketing department. This channel, that pretty much performed miracles a few years ago, seems unable to understand that a winning formula will only work for so long. The efforts to blanket the entire country in blue and orange, for example, were effective because there was always an underlying message that people sympathised with. This is no longer true, and although the initial reaction is to think they're doing it on purpose, this is simply naive. The fact that they continue with the mouse is frankly bizarre.

I agree with the two specific points Martin makes too, but I'm not sure I agree that lack of availability is the main issue. I mean it obviously affects Martin because of all those remote locations he wants to connect to a central system, and it affects me because although I live in a large suburb my exchange hasn't been upgraded, but what about the tens of thousands of SME's in the Dublin area who could switch to xDSL tomorrow if they wished? Why haven't most or even all of them switched to DSL? I think this is the question Adrian is asking.

Martin's two points cover a large percentage of the answer, and you can add nahdoic's and azi's points to these and break it down to a simple five-word sentence: It's Not Worth The Hassle. It's not worth the hassle because, as Martin says, comms is most often a secondary cost in business, it's something you worry about /after/ trying to knock another few cents off the hard or soft goods you're trying to resell. It's not worth the hassle because actually getting a service requires jumping through all manner of hoops and tests to prove yourself worthy.

It's not worth the hassle because you already have a small leased line - as the majority of medium-sized businesses do - with fixed costs, and getting rid of it and replacing it with a connection that can't really be relied upon seems a bit silly. It's not worth the hassle because you pay a couple hundred for your ISDN connection every month and xDSL doesn't seem all that much cheaper when you get right down to it. It's not worth the hassle because there's these new flat-rate services now, and they'll save me money, won't they?

I think that's Adrian's answer, i.e. there /isn't/ one simple answer that he can break down to his readers in a nice simple article that they can understand without having to tax their brains. The problem sweeps across a huge range of factors that /all/ need to be addressed before we become a true broadband society. So the best answer we can give is: It's Not Worth The Hassle. Make it easier for us to buy. Make it easier for us to understand. Make it easier for us to get. And for fúck's sake, make it cheaper for us to afford.

adam

Eurorunner

I can see where your coming from for the most part Martin but this is the crux of the thing really here ->

Most businesses leave this sort of stuff to organisations like IBEC and SFA who, IMO, have failed miserably in regard to telecoms.

Only a few weeks ago we had IBEC backing €ircon against Comreg with regard to LLU charges - surely the opposite to what they should be doing for their members!
I'm not very familiar with the workings of the small firms association but i certainly havnt heard a squeek from them in the national media ref. calling for action as regards internet access, etc.

I just feel that its a missed opportunity...if you had IBEC & SFA pushing in the same direction as IOFFL, there would be that much more momentum in bringing about the changes we all want to see here.

I accept that telecoms charges represent a small proportion of costs for a business but they are none the less significant - significant because they affect every single business (and for that matter household) in the country. If you consider that in a chain of supply, every company has this overhead in comparison to an environment abroad where every company is shelling out a fraction of this overhead - then its significant at the end of the day.

This is aside from the disadvantage that we will acrue as a result of people not using - and being familiar with - basic internet technology.

DonegalMan

Originally posted by Eurorunner
I can see where your coming from for the most part Martin but this is the crux of the thing really here ->

Only a few weeks ago we had IBEC backing €ircon against Comreg with regard to LLU charges - surely the opposite to what they should be doing for their members!

Exactly my point

I'm not very familiar with the workings of the small firms association but i certainly havnt heard a squeek from them in the national media ref. calling for action as regards internet access, etc.

Only thing I can recall is them criticising the IOFFL one day internet 'blackout' some time ago.

I just feel that its a missed opportunity...if you had IBEC & SFA pushing in the same direction as IOFFL, there would be that much more momentum in bringing about the changes we all want to see here.

I've been saying this from day one of IOFFL but for whatever reason, these organisations don't seem interested, dunno what it is, lack of knowledge or conflict of interest possibly? (AFAIK, Eircom and Esat are both heavyweight members of IBEC but this doesn't explain the passive role of SFA, who represent those very businesses that have the most to gain from improved Internet access).

I accept that telecoms charges represent a small proportion of costs for a business but they are none the less significant...

I agree with your sentiments but most businesses have too many other priorities so don't expect them to devote time to this individually. As a businessperson, I have actively supported IOFFL since its foundation because of my own general interest in the area, combined with the advantages that I can see improved Internet access bringing to my business.

Martin

dahamsta

I think IrelandOffline ironed out a few wrinkles with the Small Firms Association a good while back and was hoping that the SFA would make more of an effort to address comms issues, but it doesn't seem to have happened.

I don't think you've been around very long Eurorunner so it might be worth your while researching the history a little. For a blatant hint, start with the SFA's homepage. Notice anything? Then do a search here for "delaney" or "small firms association" or "delaney blackout". Have fun.

adam /raises two fingers at our old friend

Eurorunner

I don't think you've been around very long Eurorunner

Correct..back in country since March..was enjoying dsl internet access and normal general telcoms charges up until then..along with the rest of the free world.

start with the SFA's homepage. Notice anything? Then do a search here for "delaney" or "small firms association" or "delaney blackout". Have fun.

I think i'm up to speed as regards the sfa now....sickening, absolutely sickening..along with IBEC, the 'voice of small business' in the pockets of €ircon. The €ircon suits have done a good job here - thats for sure:mad:

dahamsta

Originally posted by Eurorunner
Correct..back in country since March..was enjoying dsl internet access and normal general telcoms charges up until then..along with the rest of the free world.

I meant on Boards Eurorunner.

adam

Carnate

My 2 cents worth.

I had ADSL for a few months and during that time i was contacted over 40 times by different people and 3 times by the same person asking if i would like to Sign up for ADSL. I got fed up with it and the constant harrasement the waiting for a static ip address,and connection problems that i started to look elsewhere.

I then researched NTL, and i found that the costs were lower and that there were no HIDDEN COSTS.

So i cancelled my ADSL, and the person i talked to could have cared less as i was cancelling my Service with €ircon.

So i thought that was the end of that, BUT no, since i cancelled, i have had numerous phone calls and also mails, telling me what a great service €ircon had and would i be interested in signing up!

Oh yeah i forgot, whilst i had ADSL top package, i got a call from the "UP TO 512k, low cost option brigade" asking if i wanted to go that route, I was dumbstruck as to what this person was telling me, i should go to a lower bandwidth for a lower price, because "everyone" was taking up the offer, when i tried to explain to the "salesperson" that i had the top package and why would i want to downgrade, she just went in to the prepared chat she had in front of her.

So IMHO €ircon only care about volume, they dont care about the service they are "supposed" to give and dont share info between departments, and lastly they dont "LISTEN" to the customers they have. Very Bad customer relations, Very Bad.

Bottom line is €ircon have very no Communication and they dont listen.


2 Cents worth.



My 2 cents worth

viking

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/08/24/story282471846.asp

2 letters printed, one from Aodhan Cullen and one from EuroRunner.

Well done!

viking