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Unions, is it time to move on?

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    #32
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,411 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Originally posted by Man
    I don't see why the government should be putting public money into Aer Rianta or Aer lingus.
    They aren't, why are you insinuating they are (by saying they shouldn't).
    Originally posted by Kananga
    Eircom has, wait for it 27 separate unions.
    List please?
    Originally posted by Kananga
    Unions are the reason nothing get's down in Eircom. The workers go on stike if their pencils break.
    When (date pelase) was the last time there was a strike in eircom? What with the employees owning a quarter to a third of the company.
    Originally posted by Kananga
    Any business that is heavily unionised usually makes a loss (telecom Eireann, ESB, Bord Gais etc etc)
    Links please?


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    #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Originally posted by Victor

    Originally posted by Man
    I don't see why the government should be putting public money into Aer Rianta or Aer lingus.
    They aren't, why are you insinuating they are (by saying they shouldn't).
    Victor,have you been going to Yoda night classes:D
    Let me extract my accent from what I typed...
    I don't see why the government should put public money into Aer Rianta or Aer Lingus

    Thats my ideology. They did at one point, theres no need to return to subsidies, when commercial reality means you will not be without a service or number of services at Irish airports.

    mm


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    #34
    bloggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 465 ✭✭bloggs


    From Examiner.ie

    Talks continue as unions threaten to cause air crisis

    Talks to try and prevent a strike by air traffic controllers are continuing between unions and the Irish Aviation Authority.

    Planes could be grounded next month if the two sides fail to reach agreement in a row over the allocation of jobs to student controllers.

    They've been told there will be no jobs for them when they qualify next month and controllers have voted in favour of strike action if they're dismissed.

    If the strike goes ahead in mid-September, it would disrupt over 2,000 flights in and out of Ireland.


    Surely the IAA can't put people into jobs if there are no jobs for them? Don't the union understand this, or is there more to this?:confused:


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    #35
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    Originally posted by bloggs


    Planes could be grounded next month if the two sides fail to reach agreement in a row over the allocation of jobs to student controllers.

    They've been told there will be no jobs for them when they qualify next month and controllers have voted in favour of strike action if they're dismissed.


    IMHO this article doesn't provide enough information for you to come to that conclusion.
    Who trains the controllers? How long ago were they brought into training and if there were going to be no jobs...why were they?
    What circumstances have made them redundant?


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    #36
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,411 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Answer me this, every time there is discussion about the direction a state company is to take why do the unions have a hissy fit, followed by a politician having a hissy fit, followed by a private operator having a hissy fit. Would they be trying to manipulate us?
    Originally posted by tinky
    To say the pension fund at Aer Lingus / Aer Rianta is marginally under funded is an understatement. Most pensions rely on a ratio of 20:1 between employees paying in to those taking out in order to be viable. A ratio of 6:1 exists at the moment in the airport. The streamlining of Aer Lingus meant early retirement for a large number of their staff along with redundancies etc. I'm not sure of the figures but I believe Aer Lingus have released up to 25% of its workforce. This means a lot less people contributing. If Brennan succeeds with his plan and Dublin Airport is left with over €800M in debt then staff will be let go and this ratio will get less.
    People work for circa 40 years of their life. They are retired for circa 10 years of their lives. This would imply a 4:1 ratio, at full pay (not the daft two thirds pay used by company pension funds). Ultimately what is important is how much money is in the fund, not how many are paying in. So how much is in the pension fund? Is this enough to pay existing committments? Nothing else matters.
    So what's stopping the story from appearing on the BBC?
    Originally posted by tinky
    I would imagine if this had happened at Heathrow Airport we would have heard about it on SKY.
    The point is the BBC don't take ad.s - they are funded by the licence fee and commercial operations.
    Originally posted by tinky
    Pay at Aer Rianta / Aer Lingus has always been productivity driven. In 1981 when I started at Dublin Airport there was only 1 pier and a shack called pier A. The section I work in had 50 staff. 2 million passangers went through the airport that year. There are now 3 large busy piers 15 million plus passangers and 12 less staff in my dept. It therefore follows that 38staff have to work harder now at what we do to keep the Airport operational .
    If 75% of the staff can do 750% of the work (rather productivity), one has to ask questions.


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    #37
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    Originally posted by Victor
    matters.The point is the BBC don't take ad.s - they are funded by the licence fee and commercial operations.

    If I were an alien, and the BBC were my only source of info, then I wouldn't even know that the ROI existed.
    Even the weather presenters ignore that little peice of land to the south.

    K back on topic....


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    #38
    bloggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 465 ✭✭bloggs


    Originally posted by sovtek
    IMHO this article doesn't provide enough information for you to come to that conclusion.
    Who trains the controllers? How long ago were they brought into training and if there were going to be no jobs...why were they?
    What circumstances have made them redundant?

    I know lots of people who have gone on training courses and have ended up without a job. If the course lasts a year, things can change very quickly. Although i always thought the airline industry would be more the same year in year out, even after 9/11. Anyway to go on strike because there isn't a job, hmmmm what sort of solution can you find for that? Answers on a post card, to the usual address...


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    #39
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Originally posted by Victor
    People work for circa 40 years of their life. They are retired for circa 10 years of their lives.


    Lest the pedants come out.....

    Average life expectancy for men in Ireland is 73. For women it is 78. Taken from here

    So a more accurate gender-neutral average, allowing for disparity in the ages would be retirement for about 15 years...but still leaving Victor's figures in the ballpark.

    The 40:1 ratio only makes sense if you were to assume people were saving no more than 2.5 percent of their salary...with 0 inflation and 0 earnings on the fund value.....all of which is blatantly ridiculous.

    jc


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    #40
    bloggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 465 ✭✭bloggs


    I wonder if my fight is canceled due to the Airport strike, can i sue the union? Wouldn't that be great if the consumer could sue the union, that would stop them from striking :D


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    #41
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,411 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Originally posted by bonkey
    Lest the pedants come out.....
    Oi! thats my job ;)
    Originally posted by bonkey
    Average life expectancy for men in Ireland is 73. For women it is 78. Taken from here So a more accurate gender-neutral average, allowing for disparity in the ages would be retirement for about 15 years...but still leaving Victor's figures in the ballpark.
    Well If you retire at 65 and die at an average 75. I know average life expectancy at 65 is over 10 years (because all those who die younger are excluded), but people under 65 will have dies, but still contributed to the scheme (whole different argument). People tend not to work their entire lives from 18 to 65 - they go to college, are unemployed, take leave of absence, take temporary contracts ....
    Originally posted by bonkey
    The 40:1 ratio only makes sense
    Who said 40:1?


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    #42
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    Originally posted by bloggs
    I wonder if my fight is canceled due to the Airport strike, can i sue the union?
    No. You can't sue the airline either (read the contract you agreed to)
    Wouldn't that be great if the consumer could sue the union, that would stop them from striking :D
    No it wouldn't. Might as well travel back to before the taft vale case if that was a possibility. It would also require substantial amendment of Irish employment legislation, rights legislation and possibly a constitutional amendment as the courts have indicated a number of times that union membership is one of the unenumerated rights in the constitution. It would result in a case to the european court of justice, which the union or prospective union members would win.


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    #43
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Originally posted by Victor
    Who said 40:1?

    Oops.

    No-one did.

    My brain read 20:1 as 40:1. Dont ask how.

    I'm off to debug it right now.

    jc


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    #44
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    Originally posted by bloggs
    I know lots of people who have gone on training courses and have ended up without a job.

    I'd assumed that they were trained by the company.


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    #45
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,411 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/1243987?view=Eircomnet
    Aer Rianta unions to ballot members on industrial action
    From:ireland.com
    Friday, 22nd August, 2003

    Unions at Aer Rianta have notified the company of plans to ballot members for industrial action that could bring strike action at Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports.

    Balloting is to start next week and it is thought a result will be known on by September 6th.

    The unions, which represent almost 2,000 workers, are SIPTU, MANDATE, IMPACT and the TEEU.

    The unions' decision is thought to have followed a meeting with Aer Rianta management earlier this week at which the company said it could not guarantee employees' pay or employment terms beyond the next 12 months.


    There was an angry reaction by trade unions last month to the plan by the Minister for Transport, Mr Brennan, to set up the airports in Dublin, Shannon and Cork as independent entities owned by the State.

    Mr Brennan has insisted that no jobs will be lost and says the privatisation of the airports is not on his agenda.

    Stating that Dublin Airport would assume some €100 million in debt from Shannon and Cork, he presented the plan as an opportunity for the two airports to develop new business.


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