Ban on "Smoking" in licensed premises/Pubs etc, Right or Wrong ??..

jongore

1. Health is more important then profits
Money is not much good to someone dieing of cancer.

2. Our overstreched health system can not cope with the effects of smoking related illnesses.
Our health system is already overstreached, as our population ages it's predicted that there will be an even greater demand for health services. We will be unable to cope with the extra cases caused by smoking.

3. Barstaff are already taking court cases because of second hand smoke. They have aright to a safe working enviroment.
Which hurts bar profits more a 5%-10% drop is busines or a multi-million euro law suit?

All this BS about craic and enjoying a fag with a drink is beside the point. The majorty is fed up with breathing in the minoritys smoke. Smoke if you want but don't inflict your addicition on me.
:mad:

Meh

Originally posted by echomadman
I cant see *anyone* walklkg up to Scummy McScum in his local tavern and asking him to "please extinguish" his cancer stick.

No, I'd go to the bouncer instead.

WTF do all you people want to live so long for if its at the expense of happiness.

Breathing in second-hand smoke doesn't make me happy.

bonkey

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
I doubt any of you care about them.

Personally, no I don't care about them one bit.
However, I believe it is in my interests to make sure that the state apply its laws even-handedly, and - in this case - offers equal protection in the workplace to all.
By making sure the law is enacted even-handedly, I am less likely to be on the receiving end of it at some poing.

You only care about how this law affects yourselves. So you have no problems parroting propaghanda and regurgitating the same points over and over again. But I smoke so I'm the one that should be ashamed of myself.

I smoke, and I fully endorse this product and/or service.

I am behind the ban 100%. I don't intend to use it as a crutch to help me quit smoking, I just accept that it is the right thing to be done.

I have come to realise that if everyone believes the law should be tailored to suit their personal wants and needs, then the system doesnt work. When you're willing to consider others as well as yourself, your perspective changes completely, and the system can be far more functional.

(The others, incidentally, are not those who want exactly what you do.)

Are we some secretive order of boogymen conspiring to give you cancer?
No.

At least no more than the drunken drivers are a secretive order of boogeymen conspiring to kill innocents on their way home......

shall I go on?

Please do.

Seriously though...it should not even be about what the barstaff want. Its about applying the law equally. A bar is as much a place of work as any other....and therefore the law should be applied there as much as in any other place of work.

And yes, by implication, I would support either a complete ban on smoking anywhere outside private residences and/or private vehicles.

And yes, as stated, I am a smoker.

but I'll say this. If people smoke they need nicotiene to relax.

I smoke, and I dont.

The Beer Baron

Pah!

I can only take solace in the assumtion any pub I go to won't be the ones some of you do. I won't win this.
Even if I did wish to invoke logic it won't work, nothing will work against you swine. I can only bow out because I would rather kick your ass in real life than instigate a childish flamewar.

It's freedom of choice we're talking about.
But you'd much rather ignore that because it suits you to tut-tut those of us who smoke and/or disagree with me.

What age are you people?
I'm 24- I much prefer to enjoy life than worry about cancer.
If I die of it then I say- oh well- I was warned- got me there.
I'm personally not worried about it though.
Jesus it sickens me- I'm going to assume, that as internet users- most of you are between the mid teens to mid thirties age-bracket. You're the young voters then yes? A bunch of prude finger-waving grannies.

Immigration it is.

therecklessone

Originally posted by echomadman

My only solace is that i dont think the implematation will be 100% effective, I cant see *anyone* walking up to Scummy McScum in his local tavern and asking him to "please extinguish" his cancer stick.

Like Meh, I'd approach a member of staff. If Mr. McScum was not dealt with, I'd finish my drink and take my business elsewhere. I imagine many others will do the same. How much damage will this do to the publicians turnover? Smoking will become more of an irritant after the legislation is passed, as it will be far more noticeable. And I've already said I currently don't mind the company of smokers, so I'm no anti-smoke Nazi...

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
Jesus it sickens me- I'm going to assume, that as internet users- most of you are between the mid teens to mid thirties age-bracket. You're the young voters then yes? A bunch of prude finger-waving grannies.

Thats it, in the abscence of a decent argument, one can always rely on insults and childish replies. Both big and clever.
:rolleyes:

Meh

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
It's freedom of choice we're talking about.
But you'd much rather ignore that

What about my freedom of choice? Seems you're the one trying to ignore that.

I much prefer to enjoy life than worry about cancer.

So do I, which is why I support the ban.

Lukin Black

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
Even if I did wish to invoke logic it won't work, nothing will work against you swine. I can only bow out because I would rather kick your ass in real life than instigate a childish flamewar.

Excuse me, who's being childish? This is the only childish comment I have seen so far.

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
It's freedom of choice we're talking about.
But you'd much rather ignore that because it suits you to tut-tut those of us who smoke and/or disagree with me.

Disagree with you is one thing, but don't lump all smokers in with you, because as you can see above they don't all agree with you.

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
What age are you people?
I'm 24- I much prefer to enjoy life than worry about cancer.
If I die of it then I say- oh well- I was warned- got me there.

[five minutes more whining like a granny]

Immigration it is.

Wow, ditto. I'm 24. And I prefer to enjoy life, going to the pub is enjoyable, detracted from by the fog of smoke there. If I enjoyed life by drinking in pubs wearing an asbestos jacket, would people complain?

And immigrate away. I'd recommend New York.

sceptre

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
Even if I did wish to invoke logic it won't work, nothing will work against you swine.

That's a bit rich considering you've ignored every attempt at logic in this thread, including mine.

bonkey

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
nothing will work against you swine. I can only bow out because I would rather kick your ass in real life than instigate a childish flamewar.

Good, then you won't mind being banned for abuse either.

Oops - you can't read this. You're banned.

jc

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by flyz
The rights of the non-smoker out weighs the rights of the smoker.

What the fúck does this mean???!?!? You have more rights than me because I smoke??? Is this serious.

I wasn't even going to reply here, but what is that supposed to be?
Interestingly, while I was in New York there a few months back. Most all pubs in Manhattan enforced this ban, but a quick jaunt into Queens and almost every single "Irish" bar, provided you with a little cup of water to use as an ashtray! Indeed.

Cabaal

Originally posted by Boston
Those are all things people have to do, people don't have to go to a pub to drink.

The idea of all (most) smokers will stop going out as much if smoking is banned is just stupid.
My family owned and ran a pub for 76 years, people won't stop going out just because of a little thing like this, yes its little and though the law may not pass now it WILL happen.
I know many a barman that doesn't think its a bad idea either.

Cabaal

Originally posted by Paddy20
Lukin Black,

I would hazard a guess that employees who wish to work in a smoke free environment are free to choose where they work. Ironically, many bar staff who also happen to be smokers have for along time been banned from smoking while on duty behind the bar!.

Oh dear god NO!
Thats terriable, after all I like ash from fags dropping into my point.
This is somewhat on health and safety grounds.

When it comes to smoking and bars, people gota work and not everyone can afford to "work somewhere else!" they gota work where they gota work.

What do you suggest, all bar staff were masks?
Get serious, in thsi day and age smoking has to be banned.

To be honest you sound like one of those fools back in the day when the Gov started to ban smoking on bus's, trains etc
People will adapt because they will have to, there's not gona be a 80% drop in smoking going out to pubs and clubs after all there still going to go out,
There not going to sit at home and watch TV while there non-smoker friends go out on the piss.

Cabaal

Originally posted by Dr. Loon
What the fúck does this mean???!?!? You have more rights than me because I smoke??? Is this serious.

I'll agree its a stupid comment, BUT
You could say its true because a non-smoker has the right to clean air and health and doesn't want to have painfull eye's and breathing diffculties.

bonkey

Originally posted by Dr. Loon
What the fúck does this mean???!?!? You have more rights than me because I smoke???

No, but they, like you have a right to certain levels of health and safety being imposed in certain places.

You cannot choose to impinge on their rights...and smoking does that.

Oh - and smoking isn't actually a right.

jc

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by Cabaal
I'll agree its a stupid comment, BUT
You could say its true because a non-smoker has the right to clean air and health and doesn't want to have painfull eye's and breathing diffculties.

Bóllox. Every HUMAN BEING has the same rights. No matter what. It's stupid statements like that which make me believe some people are serious idiots and that ex-smokers tend to be worse than non-smokers in their crap talk. Smoker or non, that's an incorrect/despicable statement.

I am now leaving this argument, as it's stupid and never-ending. The law is coming. I'm unsure if I agree or not, but I'm leaning towards the smokers side, both because I smoke, and I don't think people are being given a choice - which I disagree with. Anyway, it's happening...let's see what happens.

John Player

i smoke and im gonna really ****ing miss having a smoke and a pint but i totally agree with the ban

(not that this belief will stop me smoking in pubs till then)

fair play to the gov for bringing this in, ill thank em sunday mornings when im not hacking up my lungs.


luke

flyz

Originally posted by Dr. Loon
What the fúck does this mean???!?!? You have more rights than me because I smoke??? Is this serious.

I wasn't even going to reply here, but what is that supposed to be?
Interestingly, while I was in New York there a few months back. Most all pubs in Manhattan enforced this ban, but a quick jaunt into Queens and almost every single "Irish" bar, provided you with a little cup of water to use as an ashtray! Indeed.

Look I didn't mean to cause insult, I was only trying to make a point.

What I meant was that a smoker voluntarely(sp) smokes, whereas the non-smoker sitting next to them doesn't have a choice.
When I did smoke if someone at the table, even if we were in a smoking environment, asked me not to smoke I wouldn't smoke in their presence.

I was never good at expressing myself, maybe I should have used the word choice rather than rights, would that have been better?

Bóllox. Every HUMAN BEING has the same rights.

Every human being should have the choice to live a healthy life.

No matter what. It's stupid statements like that which make me believe some people are serious idiots and that ex-smokers tend to be worse than non-smokers in their crap talk. Smoker or non, that's an incorrect/despicable statement.

If you knew me at all then you'd know that my opinions would be the same even if I still smoked.

I am now leaving this argument, as it's stupid and never-ending. The law is coming. I'm unsure if I agree or not, but I'm leaning towards the smokers side, both because I smoke, and I don't think people are being given a choice - which I disagree with. Anyway, it's happening...let's see what happens.

The only difference now is that the smokers are the ones who won't be given a choice, whereas before the non-smokers didn't have a choice.

rubadub

Originally posted by
because I smoke does that give those that don't the right to scold me like a child? This is what I seem to be getting over this. Tut-tut- you smoke carcinogenic tobacco products killing clean-living sorts like us- for shame!

-because people dont smoke does that give those that do smoke the right to harm those around them due to their actions?

Originally posted by
You only care about how this law affects yourselves.

-you seem to aswell.

Originally posted by
How many people smoke in this country?
How many don't usually but enjoy a smoke with a pint?
And what's wrong with that?
Are we some secretive order of boogymen conspiring to give you cancer?
No.

-what does it matter how many people smoke? should the majority always rule? i am sure the majority would like not to pay taxes or have a TV licence, would this be best for the country. what is wrong is it directly harms other peoples health not just yours (unlike alcohol).

Originally posted by
Y'know I do a lot of smoking, and a lot of drinking too.
I can't remember seeing any member of a barstaff that didn't smoke. How often do you see a barman leaning wearily at the end of the bar, delighted for the prospect of a two minute lull with which to relax and have a smoke.

-when the smoking ban comes in i am sure many nonsmokers will see becoming a barman as a good viable career option now the health hazards are reduced. i wouldnt have worked on a building site 50 years ago but i would consider working on one nowadays since the government has forced owners to have safety measures in place for employees.

Originally posted by
I drink a lot, too much if truth be told and I'm an angry person. Not being able to smoke will compound it. After January anyone who mentions how great it is will have to have a smoke-free bar will have to contend with me, and people like me- who won't be relaxed.

-so are you going to physically harm nonsmoking people in another way?

Originally posted by
My only solace is that i dont think the implematation will be 100% effective, I cant see *anyone* walking up to Scummy McScum in his local tavern and asking him to "please extinguish" his cancer stick.

-i have seen Scummy McScum asked to extinguish his cannabis stick, so why not his cancer stick?

Originally posted by
It's freedom of choice we're talking about.
But you'd much rather ignore that because it suits you to tut-tut those of us who smoke and/or disagree with me.

-freedom of choice for who? those who cause physcial harm to themselves and others, or freedom for the choice not to have unnecessary physical harm caused to you in your particular workplace?

Originally posted by

---

Originally posted by flyz
The rights of the non-smoker out weighs the rights of the smoker.

---

What the fúck does this mean???!?!? You have more rights than me because I smoke??? Is this serious.

-it means somebodys right not to be caused physical harm outweighs the right of another person to cause physical harm to others. if my choice of "relaxation" was to inhale toxic fumes from burning plastic would it be tolerated in a pub? if i went to a buffet and poured alcohol in the soup would you mind? "if you dont like it go home and eat dinner there! if you go to a buffet you know people will be drinking so you should just put up with it and stop whining"

Paddy20

bonkey/jc,

Now that I have calmed down. I will try and respond in a polite manner. To your insulting and un-moderate comments that were made by you directly aimed at me in one of your previous posts on this the Thread started by me.

I asked a one line "Question" - i.e. " Is our nanny state turning in to a Dictatorship, or what?.."

Quote your OTT response: bonkey," Or maybe I mistook your original intention. Maybe you are not actually interested in having a reasonable discussion about this, and only started the thread so you could go off on a rant about the government, somewhat divorced from reality. If that the case , FIND ANOTHER SOAPBOX.

jc " end bonkeys quote.

Bonkey, since when is a one line question? - A RANT?..

You also suggested that I look up the meaning of Dictatorship!, this I have done. However, before I answer that. I also looked up the meaning of "Moderator":-

1, An arbitrator or mediator [I suggest you look up the meaning of both those words!]

2, Moderate, :- Avoiding extremes; temperate in conduct or expression!, related to "Modest". Suggest you look that up!..

3, Modest, Decorous in manner and conduct!.

4, Moderation, ;- In a moderate manner or degree!.

Then,

5, Dictatorship:- Absolute authority in any sphere!.

IMHO, A fine example is your own , Dictatorial, imperious, overbearing attitude!

Perhaps, you missed your true calling!, along with the meaning of a one line "Question"?..

Now, who really needs a soapbox ?.. maybe you bonkey!.

I can just picture you waving your arms hysterically outside the GPO .

As you may gather. I do not appreciate my integrity being questioned as to why I start a Thread. Particularly, on a political forum!!.

Regards.

P.

bloggs

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
Pah!

I can only take solace in the assumtion any pub I go to won't be the ones some of you do. I won't win this.
Even if I did wish to invoke logic it won't work, nothing will work against you swine. I can only bow out because I would rather kick your ass in real life than instigate a childish flamewar.

It's freedom of choice we're talking about.
But you'd much rather ignore that because it suits you to tut-tut those of us who smoke and/or disagree with me.

What age are you people?
I'm 24- I much prefer to enjoy life than worry about cancer.
If I die of it then I say- oh well- I was warned- got me there.
I'm personally not worried about it though.
Jesus it sickens me- I'm going to assume, that as internet users- most of you are between the mid teens to mid thirties age-bracket. You're the young voters then yes? A bunch of prude finger-waving grannies.

Immigration it is.

Hmmm, me thinks someone need to see someone about anger management

bonkey

Originally posted by Paddy20
To your insulting and un-moderate comments that were made by you directly aimed at me in one of your previous posts on this the Thread started by me.

If you took offense to my post, you could have just reported it.....that gets sent to all three mods, and none of us will take action on a complain issued against ourself, so it would have been dealt with by Gandalf and Swiss.

As you may gather. I do not appreciate my integrity being questioned as to why I start a Thread. Particularly, on a political forum!!.

Certainly, and I would like to apologise unreservedly. I was completely out of order.

I let my mood at the time spill over into my moderating, and unfortunately jumped on you for something which should be entirely reasonable to post.

Two of my pet peeves are peoples' insistence about the right to do something which is nowhere enshrined as a right, and people deliberately or subcionsciouly mis-using political labels/ideologies to add emotion.

I perceived you doing both of these things, and reasonable though they are to do under our guidelines, I completely mis-reacted.

Again...my apologies.

If you or anyone else wants to discuss this / take this further, then please take it to a new thread, or PM me, or the other mods.)

jc

Havelock

If there was no threat of fine before loss of licence, there would be no smoking with in 50 meters of any pub on January 1st. Pubs make a fortune and will continue to do so weather you are allowed smoke or not. The Irash are a culture of social drinking, this law is not going to stop that. It may force people to quit smoking, or run out side every 10 minutes, but its for the health of every none smoker and young person working in pubs. If I came in sniffing nerve agents, people would want me to do it outside, unless the fumes hurt someone else. Why should it be any different if the chemical is an addictive cancer causing carsneginic lacied with hundreds of other chemicals?

Paddy20

bonkey/jc,

Thank you, apologies accepted.

Now, back on topic. Some posters appear to find it strange that a non-smoking, non-drinker, such as me. Thinks that people should have the right to choose whether too smoke in a smoking pub, club, etc.

As someone who grew up very close to the physical border that used too exist in our fair land. Civil rights* are something very close to my deepest emotional heritage.

For the life of me. I really do not understand why our society is becoming so intolerant that our legislators feel free to introduce a blanket ban on smoking in licensed premises. Without at least holding a public referendum on this issue.

Nor do I fully comprehend. Why the owners of these licensed premises are not being given the opportunity to decide for themselves whether or not [they and their staff] wish to allow smoking on their premises!.

I really do appreciate the health implications involved, but for me it still remains a "Civil rights issue" and believe me I know what denying someone their civil rights can bring about?..

Let the debate continue. Hopefully, in a reasonably tolerant thread that can understand all shades of opinion and tolerate and discuss them in a democratic manner.

P.

Sleipnir

as someone who loves pubs and also smokes (40 on a night out), I have to say that I agree with the ban. Although I will miss having a smoke with my Guinness I understand that it's for the best in the long run.
If we are ever to eradicate smoking completely (a long shot I know but give it a few hundred years!) these are the kind of baby-steps that need to be taken.
They were banned on public transport, then in public buildings and now in pubs. A few years down the road it may well be banned outside. Bit-by-bit, the country will be weaned off the wicked weed.
The next generation (or the one after) may think twice about taking up smoking if they can only do it at home (where their parents don't allow it!)

bloggs

But it's not a ban on smoking in licenced premises, it's a ban on smoking in the work place, the thing is a pub falls under the law of a work place. the ban is to protect all employees from cigerette smoke, so you can't have a ban in one place and not another, it would be failing the people who are already suffering in places like pubs and resturants. People will try to split hairs, but i can see the point of this ban, and fully agree with it. It's not about taking rights away from people, it's putting the health of employees at the top.

The argument that people should go and look for a job elsewhere isn't fair in my opinion. If someone is fit to do a job, they should be allowed do it. Smoking does damage your health, working on a building site, MAY damage your health if you aren't careful or if the correct procedures are in place. There isn't any job i can think of that people are in a 100% change of their health at being damaged (even if it's small) and the employer is getting away with it.

DaithiSurfer

I posted this somewhere else but can't find it so i'll try and write it again.

If i walked into a pub with a bucket of radio active muck and sat down with my friends, who also broght their buckets ( bit extreme but similar to ideas about smoking).
Should we be the ones to leave if it makes us sick or should buckets of radio active muck just be banned from pubs?
Sure i could just say if you don't like it dont go to the pub, but would i be being fair?
Believe it or not this is a similar situation to smokers and non smokers in a pub.

Now on the issue of it not doing harm.
I have asthma. I go to the pub with my mates because thats where the social scene is.
When i am in a pub i am fine but that night i can't breathe properly. It is painful and i cant sleep properly.
I suffer this silently because i know to go to the pub thats a fact of life. Point being, smoke causes this. It may not kill me, but clearly it is bad for me.
So again, should i just stay away from the pub or should the offending agent be removed from the pub so all can enjoy the pub.
You can still go to the pub without smoking, i can go without breathing smoke that causes discomfort to me. You're healthy, i'm healthy and its happy days.
OR should you be allowed to smoke, you're not healthy, i'm not healthy but **** you have your civil rights but where are mine.

Anyway the point i am trying to make is that if you remove smoke you are not hurting anyone. smokers can go out for a smoke.
If you dont remove smoke it does do harm. I can go out for fresh air but the damage has been done while i was inside.

I've been in pubs with good ventilation abroad but it doesn't help at all.

Paddy20

And I have been in a pub in my hometown which has more smokers than any other. However, it has a state of the art "air-conditioning system" that was installed voluntarily! by the owner. Himself a heavy smoker, and the atmosphere is clear and relaxing for everyone.

That is except that now. The bloody loud music and crowds are driving me cuckoo, so I creep in on occassion when the bar is quiet?.. Should I call for the banning of playing music above a certain level as it damages my hearing, or for legislation limitating the number of people who should be allowed in to a local hostelry?..

P.

Lukin Black

Originally posted by Paddy20
Should I call for the banning of playing music above a certain level as it damages my hearing, or for legislation limitating the number of people who should be allowed in to a local hostelry?..

P.

Why not? But you would be a bit of a hypocrite if you were to, while supporting smoking..

And Paddy20, as far as civil rights are concerned, as someone else pointed out above, smoking is not a right, it's a privilege. Breathable air is a right.

Paddy20

So, is the Air Safely Breathable in cities, is pollution only a figment of my imagination. When I walk down my main street my right to breathe fresh air is DENIED, Right or Wrong?..

You know if I owned a pub. Come January I would stick a large fluorescent sign up in the front window stating ALL SMOKERS WELCOME?..

P.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

well of course smokers would be welcome, they just wouldn't be allowed smoke.