Ban on "Smoking" in licensed premises/Pubs etc, Right or Wrong ??..

sovtek

I actually talked to the guy who came up with the Vintners Association PR campaign about the smoking ban. It's complete BS and some people seemed to have gone for it all.
They only have themselves to blame for the loss of business which is a direct result of their criminal price gouging.
I'm all for the ban on smoking and if nothing else for the fact that it's pissing off all the pub owners.

Imposter

Originally posted by Paddy20
Imposter,

Why have they not even begun too debate even the thought of introducing this "crazy" high handed legislation in another part of Ireland, or in the UK?..

P.;)

If you mean Northern Ireland or the UK then I dunno. Does Ireland always have to wait until the UK does something before doing it? Last I heard we're allowed make our own laws.

You haven't answer my questions and seeing as Bonkey has asked them again I think maybe you should just clarify what you meant.

sovtek

Originally posted by Boston
even a 5- 10 % drop in trade will cost jobs.

Pubs have already had a 20% drop because of price gouging.

Paddy20

rubadub,

It is still perfectly legal to buy cigarettes from sweety shops. Provided you are deemed to me an adult aged 18 or over!.

Yet, it is gradually becoming more and more difficult and illegal for you to be allowed the enjoyment of smoking your ludicrously overpriced/taxed! packet of ciggys?.. That you have just legally purchased.

Something of a contradiction in legal terms and hypocritical to boot, imho?...

<Side issue> rubadub*, BTW, I also agree that cannabis hould be legalised!.

P.

Meh

From today's Independent:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1035779&issue_id=9704
A REVIEW of nearly 100 studies on the impact of smoke-free laws found the more reputable report showed there would be either no effect or a positive impact on sales and employment in bars and restaurants, it was claimed yesterday.

A new briefing document, issued by the Office of Tobacco Control, said the review of 97 studies was carried out last October in Australia, evaluating the economic effects of smoke-free policies on the hospitality industry in English-speaking countries.

The team, led by Michelle Scollo of the VicHealth Centre for Tobacco Control in Australia, found 31pc of the studies were funded directly or indirectly by the tobacco industry. Six in 10 were funded by governments, health or independent researchers. The source of 7pc could not be identified.

It showed that the studies which met all the highest quality criteria - 21 of the 97 - all concluded that bars and restaurants experience no negative sales or employment effects from smoke-free regulations.

"Studies that concluded a negative economic impact rarely included objective measures, such as sales tax figures, and were almost never peer reviewed," the document released yesterday said.

It showed that 94pc of the studies financially supported by the tobacco industry claimed a negative economic impact while none of the others did.

"Based on their evaluation of these studies it concluded that policymakers can act to protect workers and patrons from the toxins in environmental tobacco smoke confident in rejecting industry claims that there will be an adverse economic impact," it said.

It pointed to California, where the smoking ban has been in effect long enough to give meaningful sales tax data. It found that a study on the economic impact of the ban in bars there showed sales tax revenues increased every quarter during 1998, 1999 and 2000.

"The group of scientists concluded that there is consensus among the international scientific community that environmental tobacco smoke in the workplace increases the risk of lung cancer among non-smokers by between 20pc and 30pc," the report states, "and that involuntary smoking increases the risk of heart disease in non-smokers by between 25pc and 30pc."

The scientists also concluded that the current range of ventilation technologies cannot adequately control exposure to environmental tobacco smoke.

Here's the original study, if you want more details.

sovtek

Originally posted by Paddy20
Alcohol*as served in licensed premises/Pubs!, every year in comparison to the number killed by cigarette smoking?..

Then legalize marijauna, heroin, cocaine, crack, amphetamines and MDMA 'cause they all kill hundreds of thousands less than the legal drugs tobacco and alcohol.
That being said all the drugs except tobacco only kill the ones who use them and rarely anyone else.

Paddy20

sovtek,

Is there a link to the "Vintners Association PR campaign about the smoking ban" ?..please.

I, or other interested parties can not judge if, Quote, " It is complete BS " end quote, if we are not given an opportunity to read it ?..

P.

Tiesto

I voted Right.
Smoking is killing many ppl in the long term.Well said by someone above that you should be able to enjoy a pint without coughing on someone elses smoke.
If they want to smoke that bad, they can go outside and do it!!!

Its a disgusting habbit and i dont think i will ever understand why people start.

Meh

Originally posted by Paddy20
Is there a link to the "Vintners Association PR campaign about the smoking ban" ?..please

Here you go. They're claiming 65,000 jobs will be lost because of the ban, which is just plain ridiculous.

bloggs

Originally posted by Meh
Here you go. They're claiming 65,000 jobs will be lost because of the ban, which is just plain ridiculous.

Would publicans even employ that many altogether

I have a fear that they will march on Lenister house just before xmas and the minister will get scared and bow to their pressure

Paddy20

Meh,

Thanks for that link. Now all I need are links too all licensed retailers official associations*?.. in Ireland!.

I am not really interested in America, or even Australia. Differrent strokes for different folks and all that. Different climates and cultures as well?.. Eh.

P.;)

Meh

Originally posted by Paddy20
Thanks for that link. Now all I need are links too all licensed retailers official associations*?.. in Ireland!.

Vintner's Federation of Ireland
Licensed Vintner's Association (site redirects to indigo.ie)

I am not really interested in America, or even Australia. Differrent strokes for different folks and all that. Different climates and cultures as well?..

It was the publicans associations who mentioned New York and the supposed job losses there first...

sovtek

Originally posted by Paddy20
sovtek,

Is there a link to the "Vintners Association PR campaign about the smoking ban" ?..please.

I, or other interested parties can not judge if, Quote, " It is complete BS " end quote, if we are not given an opportunity to read it ?..

P.

I guess you haven't watched TV, listened to a radio, picked up a newspaper or been on the internet since the legislation was proposed?

sovtek

Originally posted by bloggs
Would publicans even employ that many altogether

I have a fear that they will march on Lenister house just before xmas and the minister will get scared and bow to their pressure

Failing that a BIG OL' fat brown envelope.

Paddy20

Re;re;re; Ban on "Smoking" in licensed premises/pubs etc, ??..

From, the website* of the Vintners Federation of Ireland.

" The 60 - strong membership of our National Executive Committee who met today expressed the on-the-ground anger, frustration and serious concern of our 6,000 members throughout the country. They also expressed deep anger at the prospect of being fined or even jailed for an offence committed by a customer.

There is also serious and deserved concern over the threat of violence to families and staff who will have to enforce the ban.

"It is ill thought out, unworkable, and unenforceable" commented Mr Joe Browne, President of the VFI.

" We are the only country in Europe introducing such a ban, even Finland had derogation for pubs, and in most jurisdictions including California. There is derogation for small businesses with five or less employees. In other jurisdictions. There is derogation for Family run only establishments".

"Our body represents 6,000 rural publicans and the majority of establishments are small or family-run. Yet nobody in the Department of Health has taken this into consideration". concluded Mr Browne.

I rest my case, full story available on :- www.vfi.ie
for those readers who just may be interested in true democratic justice in Ireland?..

My sincere thanks to Meh* for the link, and Mr Browne for his worthy and succinct remarks.

P.;)

bonkey

"It is ill thought out, unworkable, and unenforceable" commented Mr Joe Browne, President of the VFI.

Heh. Unworkable and Unenforceable...

how is it any less unworkable or unenforceable than...ohhh....say Closing Time? Or serving to minors? Or rules about the hours that minors can work? Or, or, or....

Hell, most pubs I know will refuse to serve you snakebite on some legal grounds, and I've known more than one person kicked out of a pub for ordering the cider and beer seperately and mixing it at their table themselves.....

If pubs can enforce that type of stuff, I can't see how smoking is a problem.

Next they'll be telling us it would be "unworkable and unenforceable" to prevent punters from bringing in drink from outside the pub and drinking it on their premises. Oh - no - that one is enforceable, because enforcing it keeps profit up.


jc

sovtek

Originally posted by Paddy20


" We are the only country in Europe ..."

Someone should remind him of the licence laws that Ireland is "only country in Europe" doing, that help to keep his fat ass rich while he extorts from the rest of us .

Paddy20

sovtek,

The above extract from the {Vintners Federation of Ireland} appears "DESPITE"! your refusal to respond in a civil manner to my request to you for a link to the {Vintners Association of Ireland PR campaign!.}

So, it appears you do not even appreciate peoples "right" to information or that Boards.ie is a community of people most of whom actually care enough to help each other instead of continually whining and then making snide remarks!. Thank you. For your - total non co-operation- Turns out you did me a favour and I now have more information than you would believe at my fingertips.

Prepare yourself to be shocked in to the real world!.

Have a nice life?..

P.

Lukin Black

Originally posted by Paddy20
From, the website* of the Vintners Federation of Ireland.

[snip]

I rest my case

Em, that's not your case - that's the Vintners' Federation of Ireland's case.

So you believe everything you read now? Even when it is propoganda from such an unbelievably biased source? And of course it's biased, sure that's why they're there in the first place.

Paddy20

Lukin,

Give it a rest?.. I posted their Chairmans statements to support my stance.

As for believing anyone I suppose you believe everything our Minister for Health , or on second thought our," Minister against Healths" spoken and written balderdash and cutbacks and incompetance.

P.

Meh

Originally posted by Paddy20
Give it a rest?.. I posted their Chairmans statements to support my stance.

An unsubstantiated opinion from someone with a very large vested interest in this issue isn't much use as support for your case. Other people *ahem* have posted scientific studies to back up their arguments. I suggest you do the same, if you want to convert people to your cause.

As for believing anyone I suppose you believe everything our Minister for Health , or on second thought our," Minister against Healths" spoken and written balderdash and cutbacks and incompetance.

I don't need the Minister for Health to tell me that cigarette smoke is bad for me.

ArphaRima

Smoking Rooms. Smoking Rooms. Smoking Rooms.
(not a lounge, a room, 10ft by 10ft. - no chairs or tables just tall ashtrays)

That is all that is needed. Wont happen though cos the minister is an uncompromising wanker.

As for all hotel rooms being non-smoking; that I will completely ignore. Most hotels involve walking about half a mile to get to the front door. Room will do nicely thank you. And they all have heat detectors, not smoke detectors.

All of these posts seem to talk about pubs. Those you can usually step outside of to have a smoke. No problem here. Did it in the states, kind of liked it, reduced my smoking, met new people when i went outside..
Nightclubs. wtf? queue for 20 minutes to get in. have a few pints. step outside in the pissing rain, leaving your mates behind and then be told you cant come back in. Its going to happen.

Lukin Black

Originally posted by Paddy20
Lukin,

Give it a rest?.. I posted their Chairmans statements to support my stance.

As for believing anyone I suppose you believe everything our Minister for Health , or on second thought our," Minister against Healths" spoken and written balderdash and cutbacks and incompetance.

P.

Firstly I don't think that you'll find any "spoken and written balderdash and cutbacks and incompetance" from ANY Minister quoted in any previous posts, on the contrary, many of us think that he is a big tool (especially from his Education days). What you WILL find is a lot of propoganda that the pro-making-employees-work-in-smoky-environment crowd, yourself very much included, have trawled up. Nobody, once again yourself included, has yet managed to pull up any non-biased facts, statistics, evidence, anything to back up their assertions.

Paddy20

Meh,

Lukin Blacks, last post cast aspertions and doubt as to the "trurthfullness"! of the President of the Vintners Federation of Irelands statements?.. which I posted on here in good faith.

Due to the fact that I believe him. If anyone can refute anything he stated as imaginary propagandist lies. Then let them produce their evidence, instead of stooping so low.

I am fully aware that his position leaves him open too petty nonsensical attack. I would just like to see some evidence from his critics, disproving any of his very interesting and as far as I am aware truthful facts?..

P.

Meh

Hi Paddy,
Please read this link
Regards,
Meh

Lukin Black

Its predictions that you quoted. How can someone prove predictions wrong before the event happens? :rolleyes:

And Paddy20, I said he was biased, so his 'predictions' of violence, unworkability etc. are obviously not "truth". Therefore I would class it propoganda.

Lukin Black

Originally posted by Meh
this link

Good one. Happens all too often here.

Paddy20

Lukin,

Can I respecfully suggest that you re-read Mr Brownes statements, including:-

1, Derogation?..

2, What happened in Finland?..

3, We ARE the only country in Europe introducing such a ban?..

4, In other Jurisdictions, there is "Derogation" for small businesses with five [5] or less employees?..

5, In other Jurisdictions, there is derogration for family only run establishments?..

etc,etc,

Finally. Until you and sovtek* stop posting your biased ill -informed unsubstantiated allegations and assumptions!.

This is my last response to anything either of you post on this thread.

P.

sceptre

Originally posted by Paddy20
Prepare yourself to be shocked in to the real world!.

So any view on the ECHR and your forthcoming fight for justice then? I'm still waiting for

.. I will also address that misguided opinion as well.

useful link to get you started on your merry way.

Meh

Originally posted by Paddy20
Lukin,

Can I respecfully suggest that you re-read Mr Brownes statements, including:-
...
2, What happened in Finland?..

3, We ARE the only country in Europe introducing such a ban?..

4, In other Jurisdictions, there is "Derogation" for small businesses with five [5] or less employees?..

5, In other Jurisdictions, there is derogration for family only run establishments?..

Paddy,
Allow me to remind of your post earlier today :

Originally posted by Paddy20
I am not really interested in America, or even Australia. Differrent strokes for different folks and all that. Different climates and cultures as well?.. Eh.

Yet all of a sudden we should take other countries into account now?