Operation Iraqi Freedom

Vader

which part do you need proof of(srecifically) and I'll show you where I got it from, my references include acclaimed scholars, M. Moore, N. Chomsky, M. Albert, M Weisbrot and nobel prize nominees.

gandalf

Piliger did you not see the warning about personal abuse in the post right above yours ??

Your new so I will let you away with it this time but I expect you to edit it out of your post. If it happens again you are banned from here.

Also THe Saint did back up his views with a reference no matter how distasteful it is to you. Weres your backup for "this crap about American terrorism is so much crap too", from my view America has an awful lot to answer for in realition to some of its foreign policy for the last 50 years.

Gandalf.

The Saint

which part do you need proof of(srecifically) and I'll show you where I got it from, my references include acclaimed scholars, M. Moore, N. Chomsky, M. Albert, M Weisbrot and nobel prize nominees.

I dont think Michael Moore is in the same league with Chomsky and the likes. He is very opinionated and hardly an acclaimed scholar. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy reading MM but it must be read with a pinch of salt and I wouldnt take his word as gospel. Chomsky on the other hand backs up everything with official documentation, quotes and proves his points very well.

Vader

I didnt say I like MM I just said that I have read him. Your dead right, like what I said about MM earlier.

These people are incidious, evil scum of the earth!! Facists, liars, hypocrates, thieves etc etc.

Just so theres no misunderstanding, I was talking about those in Power not the average american. I feel sorry for those americans who have been bombarded by proparganda and indoctronation, I dont blame them.

mr_angry

Don't get me wrong Vader, I agree wholeheartedly that George Bush didn't go into Iraq to free its people. America constantly has hidden agendas. But I am hopeful that SOME good will eventually come from this sad and bitter situation.

I disagree strongly with you rejecting my comparisons with Irish history though. I'm in way over my head? What is that supposed to mean? I feel entirely justified in drawing these comparisons, and if you feel you disagree with this, then I challenge you to disprove the legitimacy of these comparisons with facts and logical reasoning. Not just dismissing it out of hand in a frankly arrogant manner.

As an afterthought, I've included below a letter that Terry Jones (of Monty Python fame) sent into the English national newspapers shortly before the war began. Enjoy.

---

Give this man a knighthood, oscar, medal of honour, whatever....


A letter to the London observer from Terry Jones (yes, of Monty
Python).

I'm really excited by George Bush's latest reason for bombing Iraq:
he's running out of patience. And so am I! For some time now I've
been really pissed off with Mr Johnson, who lives a couple of doors down
the street. Well, him and Mr Patel, who runs the health food shop.
They both give me queer looks, and I'm sure Mr Johnson is planning
something nasty for me, but so far I haven't been able to discover what.
I've been round to his place a few times to see what he's up to, but
he's got everything well hidden. That's how devious he is. As for Mr
Patel, don't ask me how I know, I just know - from very good sources
- that he is, in reality, a Mass Murderer. I have leafleted the street
telling them that if we don't act first, he'll pick us off one by
one.

Some of my neighbours say, if I've got proof, why don't I go to the
police? But that's simply ridiculous. The police will say that they
need evidence of a crime with which to charge my neighbours. They'll
come up with endless red tape and quibbling about the rights and
wrongs of a pre-emptive strike and all the while Mr Johnson will be
finalising his plans to do terrible things to me, while Mr Patel
will be secretly murdering people. Since I'm the only one in the
street with a decent range of automatic firearms, I reckon it's up to
me to keep the peace. But until recently that's been a little
difficult.

Now, however, George W. Bush has made it clear that all I need to
do is run out of patience, and then I can wade in and do whatever I
want! And let's face it, Mr Bush's carefully thought-out policy
towards Iraq is the only way to bring about international peace and
security. The one certain way to stop Muslim fundamentalist suicide
bombers targeting the US or the UK is to bomb a few Muslim countries
that have never threatened us. That's why I want to blow up Mr Johnson's
garage and kill his wife and children.Strike first! That'll teach him a
lesson. Then he'll leave us in peace and stop peering at me in that
totally unacceptable way.

Mr Bush makes it clear that all he needs to know before bombing
Iraq is that Saddam is a really nasty man and that he has weapons of mass
destruction - even if no one can find them. I'm certain I've just as
much justification for killing Mr Johnson's wife and children as Mr
Bush has for bombing Iraq. Mr Bush's long-term aim is to make the
world a safer place by eliminating 'rogue states' and 'terrorism'.
It's such a clever long-term aim because how can you ever know when
you've achieved it? How will Mr Bush know when he's wiped out all
terrorists? When every single terrorist is dead? But then a terrorist
is only a terrorist once he's committed an act of terror. What about
would-be terrorists? These are the ones you really want to eliminate,
since most of the known terrorists, being suicide bombers, have already
eliminated themselves. Perhaps Mr Bush needs to wipe out everyone who
could possibly be a future terrorist? Maybe he can't be sure he's
achieved his objective until every Muslim fundamentalist is dead? But
then some moderate Muslims might convert to fundamentalism. Maybe the
only really safe thing to do would be for Mr Bush to eliminate all Muslims?
It's the same in my street. Mr Johnson and Mr Patel are just the tip
of the iceberg. There are dozens of other people in the street who I
don't like and who - quite frankly - look at me in odd ways. No one
will be really safe until I've wiped them all out. My wife says I
might be going too far but I tell her I'm simply using the same logic
as the President of the United States. That shuts her up.
Like Mr Bush, I've run out of patience, and if that's a good enough
reason for the President, it's good enough for me. I'm going to give
the whole street two weeks - no, 10 days - to come out in the open
and hand over all aliens and interplanetary hijackers, galactic outlaws
and interstellar terrorist masterminds, and if they don't hand them
over nicely and say 'Thank you', I'm going to bomb the entire street
to kingdom come. It's just as sane as what George W. Bush is proposing -
and, in contrast to what he's intending, my policy will destroy only one street.

Vader

Your dam right you deserve an explanation, it is arrogent to say that, I was still in the frame of mind that I was in the re-united Ireland thread.
Why cant one draw comparrissons between Irish history and american history?
1) They have a tradition of capitalism, we of socialism
2) We have always been opressed, them opressors
3) They have always simplified problems down to with me or agan me and dealt with them in one on one ways whereas irish history is riddled with contraversies involving usually no fewer than 5 seperate interests *
4) Yes we both seem to justify wars on moral grounds but then most irish leaders in these wars tend to become martyrs and american leaders tend to become richer.

* The version of Irish history thats tought in primary and secondary schools is very incomplete, probably due to efforts to simplify it for students. Also there are many aspects of Irish history that are yet to enter the history books(for anyone studing anywhere). I'm referring to the after effects of the civil war and 2 planned risings that never happened. This was part of the reason behind my statement "you are in over your head".

The other is that there is a lot lot more I can say on these topics and the statment "you are in over your head" was ment in the sense of "dont get me started".

mr_angry

Ok, they are some valid points. But I was really drawing a comparison between us and the Iraqi people, and the Americans and the Spanish. Not us and the Americans.

Yes, Iraq is a mess at the moment. But what did you realistically expect? A trouble-free removal of Saddam. And I know you're gonna say that you expected America not to go in at all, but would an International force have done any better, once the decision was made to go in? I seriously doubt it.

My personal opinion is that nobody has the right to "decide" what the government of a country is, except for the people of that country. But lets face it, the Iraqi people didn't have that kind of control over their government.

I agree with the Americans on one particular point - evil dictators like Saddam cannot be tolerated (or appeased). I know in the past that the Americans have taken the opposite view, but that doesn't mean that such behaviour should continue.

I agree that Iraqi people aren't much better off at the moment, but I think that things will get better for them from now on, whereas under Saddam, there would have been no improvement. Seeing the female Afghani athletes at the Athletics world championships, and our own special olympics gave me great hope. I'll be very disappointed if it proves unfounded, but that's the chance you take with hope.

bloggs

France and Germany reject US UN draft.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3080094.stm

I guess this will create even more mindless Anti-European feeling across the pond. The American's won't see that it's their mess and unless they let pull out completly they can't expect it clean up.

mr_angry

Having read that, what can I say? Typical Americans. The analysis says:

The US has recognised reality in accepting a UN role in Iraq

Bullsh*t, by the looks of things. What they seem to want is to place other nationalities' peacekeepers on the front line to keep the Yanks from getting shot.

The person who commented:

Send in troops but the US and UK should bear the sole cost of the enterprise

was quite right. Its their mess, let them pay for it to be cleaned up. I notice they still haven't found any WMDs...

mr_angry

I found this too. Proves its all completely self-motivated.

Powell position

The CBO report is in the form of a letter to veteran West Virginia Senator Robert Byrd, an opponent of the Iraq war.

It says that if the Pentagon continues with its current intention to rotate troops after one year in Iraq, it would need to reduce the 180,000 soldiers there now to between 38,000 and 64,000 by the winter of next year.

This would allow for family time, retraining and, above all, for enough troops to be kept ready for action elsewhere.

An alternative plan, to increase the size of the army by two divisions would, the report says, be very expensive. It would cost $19bn up-front and bring the cost of occupying Iraq to $29bn a year.

The idea of bringing the UN in was publicly floated by the Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage.

He is very close to the Secretary of State Colin Powell himself, and clearly would not have spoken without his chief's say-so. Mr Powell has now persuaded President Bush that this is the way forward.

bonkey

Lets not forget the alternate possibility....that the US want the UN to refuse the offer.

After all, it would add more weight to any future claims of the irrelevance of the UN (wouldn't even get involved in peacekeeping, and also give the US a "well, we offered and they refused" line to throw at the media any time that someone offers any criticism at this being little better than an occupation for profit.

jc

mr_angry

I loved someone's reference to the "You're either with us or against us" line.

Maybe that statement should have been rephrased:

"You're either with us, or against us. But maybe we've been a bit hasty. We still actually like you European types, especially buying our stuff. But we're gonna continue on our own anyway. Oh wait, we would actually like your help after all, 'cos we've got ourselves in a bit of trouble. As long as we're allowed to run the show, and tell you guys what to do! Yes, that's the kind of help we like... etc, etc..."

I really commend the Poles for helping them out - I don't think I could stomach that kind of attitude. No matter how many favours you got from them.