Heatwave deaths in France

TomF

I just finished reading an article on heat-related deaths of elderly people in France, and it makes me wonder if something like this could happen in (post?) Celtic Tiger Ireland? (And no, I'm not a Christian Scientist!)

"The catastrophe has prompted calls for French society to look at the way it treats its elders.

'We have left our senior citizens to fend for themselves under the cruelest circumstances,' wrote Chantal de Singly, director of Saint-Antoine Hospital in Paris, in the daily Le Monde. 'For many, too many of them, it proved fatal. Nobody deserves to die like that ... abandoned.... We need to restore the social contact in a society that has become too individualistic.'

'It's not a political or medical problem, but a social one,' Guillausseau agrees. 'Society has become too materialistic,' he says, adding that 'religion doesn't play such a big role anymore. The fabric of society has changed. We don't have respect or time for our elders anymore.' "
<http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0825/p06s02-woeu.html>

TomF

Seems odd that all those people who died in the recent heatwave in France don't provoke more comment. Here's an interesting column suggesting a connection between Socialism and the deaths.

"Socialism kills
Dennis Prager

September 2, 2003

In a period of two weeks during August, more than 11,000 elderly French men and women died of heat stroke. It is important to note that this is not nearly the scandal in France that it would be in America. In fact, upon hearing the news, French president Jacques Chirac decided to stay on vacation in Quebec, Canada.

Why not? Because, in the words of British historian Paul Johnson, the French -- like most Europeans, and like most left-thinking people anywhere -- love ideas more than people. The average educated European can intelligently discuss Hegel or Matisse almost as well as the average educated American -- who probably never heard of Hegel or Matisse -- can discuss real estate or sports.

Europe has given the world Marxism, communism, fascism, Nazism, racism and socialism, all rotten ideas that have caused immeasurable human suffering. But for Europeans and their ideological twins on the American left and at universities, ideas are not judged by their ability to ameliorate human suffering or reduce evil, but by their complexity and apparent profundity. An idea is not good because it produces good -- that's unromantic American pragmatism -- it is good because it sounds good.

Eleven thousand unnecessary deaths occurred in France largely because socialism inevitably breeds hedonism, selfishness and callousness.

As ironic as it may seem, but the fact is that socialism -- i.e., cradle-to-grave state welfare -- makes people worse.

First, the socialist mind loathes work. In France, the legal length of the work week is 35 hours. Working hard to make more money is an American value that is held in contempt by the Left. The New York Times recently featured an article describing the death of the Protestant work ethic in secular, socialist Europe and the thriving of that ethic in America -- and that this explains the far greater productivity and affluence of America. The Judeo- Christian tradition values work; secularism doesn't. And as we all know from watching our children, people with a lot of time on their hands have character problems.

Second, socialism values equality more than liberty. The Norwegian government recently passed a law that the boards of its largest corporations must be half female. The California left, the Democratic Party, just passed a law that no employer may fire a male employee who wears women's clothing at work. Because the Left holds liberty (except sexual liberty) in lower esteem, Europe has raised a generation that does not value liberty nearly as much Americans do (though we're getting there).

Third, socialism teaches you to avoid taking care of other people. The state will -- why should you? If people in France and elsewhere in Europe take less care of their aging parents, it is because they are taught from childhood to allow others -- i.e., the state -- to take care of everybody. Just as we saw in America when the state stepped in to take care of women who had children without a husband, these women increasingly refused to marry and felt little compunction about having more babies out of wedlock. The bigger the government, the worse the people.

Fourth, as a result of this socialist mindset, people in socialist countries give little charity, while Americans give vast amounts (just as Americans in conservative states give more charity per capita than people in liberal ones).

Fifth, the larger the state, the more callous it becomes. Twentieth century evil was made possible in large measure by the bureaucratic mentality -- the type of person who is merely a cog in huge governmental machine, collectively all-powerful but individually powerless to do anything except take and execute orders. The bigger the state, the colder its heart. (It is also true that the bigger the corporation, the more callous its heart. But unlike the state, corporations have competition and have no police powers.)

As I wrote in a previous column, the future of the world is either European secular socialism, Islamic totalitarianism or the unique American combination of Judeo-Christian religiosity and political and economic liberty.

Few Americans are attracted to the second possibility, but vast numbers look to Europe as a model. One hopes that the next time they do, they will note the 11,000 elderly dead in France. But don't bet on it."

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20030902.shtml

Turnip

That article is funny but can't be taken seriously. In fairness, Townhall.com represents the very maddest side of american conservatism. Quote from columnist Anne Coulter "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." That's not very nice is it?

ReefBreak

I'm not sure what the angle townhall.com comes from - although I will have a look - but the following statement made me nod my head in a very agreeable manner:

Originally posted by TomF
Europe has given the world Marxism, communism, fascism, Nazism, racism and socialism, all rotten ideas that have caused immeasurable human suffering. But for Europeans and their ideological twins on the American left and at universities, ideas are not judged by their ability to ameliorate human suffering or reduce evil, but by their complexity and apparent profundity. An idea is not good because it produces good -- that's unromantic American pragmatism -- it is good because it sounds good.

As Homer Simpson says: "In theory Communism works! In theory!"

Whatever about the rest of her opinions - this article, taken on it's own is very good, although I don't think she proves that socialism did actually cause 11,000 deaths.

Originally posted by TomF
Fourth, as a result of this socialist mindset, people in socialist countries give little charity, while Americans give vast amounts (just as Americans in conservative states give more charity per capita than people in liberal ones).

This is also very true, and it's something that most anti-Americans forget about - also forgetten is the fact that the least socialist country in the world (the US) gives far more monetary aid to developing countries than that donated by any other western nation in the world.

mike65

Socialism did'nt kill anyone in France this summer but alot of negligent citizens did. Plainly the French are not as family oriented as I thought. Things would have been better if the country did'nt completly shut down in August but then is Ireland much better in that respect?

I remember seeing Coulter being interviewed in UK telly earlier this year and boy, she does'nt like the be disagreed with.

Ann Coulter in her natural environment



Mike.

ReefBreak

I'd never heard of Ann Coulter before today - and now I've read her name twice in one hour!...

Interview with the excellent American writer PJ O'Rourke:
http://www.theonionavclub.com/current_feature1.html

O: What do you make of the wave of bestselling conservative commentators?

PO: People love to be told what they know already. It's not so much that what they say is wrong, though Ann Coulter does seem to be completely crazy. [Laughs.] But it's kind of like reading The Power Of Positive Thinking, or any other advice or how-to book. All they do is reassure people of their basic opinions, and then they can continue to act like they've always acted. I'd say it's time to move on to something else, but I don't know what it would be.

bloggs

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/larrykudlow/lk20030830.shtml

People like this give Conservatism a bad name :mad:

mike65

PJ O'Rourke used to be considered a bit "out there" now he's practically a mainstream liberal by curent US standards!

Mike.

The Saint

This is also very true, and it's something that most anti-Americans forget about - also forgetten is the fact that the least socialist country in the world (the US) gives far more monetary aid to developing countries than that donated by any other western nation in the world.

This is not true. The US ranks way down the list when in comes to aid donated per GNP. I think Japan is first and some of the Scandinavian countries fare quite high also. As far as I remember, Ireland gives more in aid than America per GNP.

That article is the biggest load of crap that I have heard saying Europeans care more for ideas than people. Is that why over 10% of Americans live under the poverty line? Social security and social services have been cut as well as payments to war veterans.

ReefBreak

We can discuss or twist facts and figure all you like, but in reality you're sort of wrong. The reason the Aid/GNP is so low in America is because GNP is so high. As for Total Aid: the US are first at 12.9 Billion, the second are Japan at 9.2B and Germany are third at 5.3B - less than half of what the yanks donate. As for Aid/GNP, the Yanks are 22nd, the Japs are 17th and the Germans are 13th. Basically, the richer you are, the more you give in total, but the less you give per person.

That article is the biggest load of crap that I have heard saying Europeans care more for ideas than people. Is that why over 10% of Americans live under the poverty line? Social security and social services have been cut as well as payments to war veterans.

Well, you've obviously never lived in America - the Yanks have a much higher standard of living than Europe or anywhere else in the world. This is proven both by looking at per capita GNP/GDP figures and by simply living over there. Whether you like it or not, jealousy of this wealth is the main reason for such rampant US-bashing around the globe.

bloggs

Originally posted by ReefBreak

Well, you've obviously never lived in America - the Yanks have a much higher standard of living than Europe or anywhere else in the world. This is proven both by looking at per capita GNP/GDP figures and by simply living over there. Whether you like it or not, jealousy of this wealth is the main reason for such rampant US-bashing around the globe.

To some parts of Europe, but to other parts it's certainly not the case. Finland would have a higher standard of living, while us Irish would have a lower standard.

Also Germany have 1/5 the population of the US, but give 1/2 as much aid, something not right there.

mike65

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Well, you've obviously never lived in America - the Yanks have a much higher standard of living than Europe or anywhere else in the world. This is proven both by looking at per capita GNP/GDP figures and by simply living over there.

True when taken as a whole but go micro and you get a differnent story ie Kentucky Vs Bravaria no contest there. But then again Yonkers Vs Naples no contest there either.....Also in the States a
relative few own the a vast amount of the national wealth, this applies in all countries but particuarly in the US.

Mike.

bonkey

Gentlemen....back on topic please.

This is not a topic about the US. It is primarily supposed to be about Ireland (based on what TomF asked initially).

If you want to discuss other aspects of the article, please do so in another thread.

jc

sovtek

For someone who comes from Texas, idea that socialism created the deaths in France (or Ireland or any country that might have some socialistic policies) seems quite ridiculous to me.
Every peak summer elderly people die in the US. The reason is we don't have vast numbers is because most people know how to deal with it or have air-conditioning.
It's usually the elderly poor or shut-ins. Even Texas, where almost every dwelling has an air-conditioner, has people die because they lack the funds for A/C or don't have relatives they can sit it out with (who do).
Such extreme temperatures in a climate where people aren't used to it are always going to kill off the elderly and weak.
The French government should have issued warnings and public messages about how to deal with high temperatures. That kind of failure could happen in any bureaucracy wether it be capitalist, socialist...etc.
As for America being the most generous, they are low on the list compared to Europe compared to GNP. Alot of that actually goes to Israel in the form of military aid. That being said, the average American that isn't fooled by typical right-wing propaganda is usually quite generous.
Unfortunetly our government doesn't reflect this.

Victor

Old people always suffer in weather extremes. Just look at death rates in Ireland from December (they try to hang on for Christmas) to March and the auld ones are dropping like flies. Hypothermia, flu, colds, the works.

Originally posted by ReefBreak
We can discuss or twist facts and figure all you like, but in reality you're sort of wrong. The reason the Aid/GNP is so low in America is because GNP is so high. As for Total Aid: the US are first at 12.9 Billion, the second are Japan at 9.2B and Germany are third at 5.3B - less than half of what the yanks donate. As for Aid/GNP, the Yanks are 22nd, the Japs are 17th and the Germans are 13th. Basically, the richer you are, the more you give in total, but the less you give per person.

Thats $72 per capita for Japan, €64 per capita for Germany and €24 per capita for the USA (from here). This compares with €411 per capita for Norway. The flip side of this is aid is often tied to purchasing products from the donor country - in this regard American products tend to be expensive.

Originally posted by sovtek
That being said, the average American that isn't fooled by typical right-wing propaganda is usually quite generous.

Especially companies that get double tax breaks and make more profit by giving away things as "charity", subsidised by governemtn and ordinary taxpayers. That said individuals in the USA do tend to make donations to worthy causes out of their own pockets, Europeans tend to do it out of their pay cheques.

bonkey

Originally posted by sovtek
Such extreme temperatures in a climate where people aren't used to it are always going to kill off the elderly and weak.

Agreed.

The French government should have issued warnings and public messages about how to deal with high temperatures.

I can't be certain, but I believe they did. I'll check with some of my co-workers who live across the border in France (company head office is in Basel).

However, this is somewhat secondary to the allegations being made.

What is being reported is that, effectively, a lot of people decided to head off on holidays and leave grandmere in her little apartment, sweltering away in the whatever-temps it was, and sure wouldn't she be fine because the state would take care of her.

Its not that a surprisingly large number of people died....its that a surprisingly large number of people died because they were left alone.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe those Parisians just havent had extreme temperatures in so long that it never occurred to them that it could be dangerous to the old etc. but thats not the impression I get.

The aftermath, at least over here, seems to bring up the question of who failed who. Did the state fail the expectations of the people, by not being able to cope with the situation, or did the people fail each other, by asking and expecting the state to shoulder unreasonable burdens.

From this perspective, when I consider the original question, I must admit that I would have to say that I do believe something similar could happen in Ireland, but for different reasons.

I believe if Ireland was hit by extreme weather conditions (and bear in mind that many countries on the mainland are reporting "the summer of a millenium"), that the state would fail to cope with whatever amount of care which the populace did not provide. However, whether or not there would be any suggestion that people "left it to the State" (as I'[m hearing about France from next door, at least).....I'm not so sure on that one.

jc

jc