RVN looking human

p.pete

So far this season we have seen the end to 2 of Ruuds remarkable runs.

Last night saw the end to his scoring in consecutive matches and previous to that we saw him miss his first penalty in ages.

We were sitting in the pub last night watching an average manu performance and discussing RVNs league goal tally. For manu he has scored something like 50 goals in sixty odd league appearances. These are amazing numbers but how many of these were penalties? We were reckoning around 15 (the exact figure would be appreciated) which changes things a little.

Ignoring 15 penalties would leave 35 goals in sixty odd games. So is RVN just an above average striker playing for a team that gets a lot of penalties?

The Muppet

You little tinker pete You wouldn't be stirring now would you?

If Ruud is going through a crisis because he failed to score in a match whats the story with Owen.:D True Ruuds performances in the league this year have not being of his usual high standards but to question his ability is surprising. he is still a world class striker and the best IMO.:)

kmart6

How can u judgehim on last nit yhere wasnt any quaility ball getting to him until Giggs and Scholes came on

p.pete

Originally posted by kmart6
How can u judgehim on last nit yhere wasnt any quaility ball getting to him until Giggs and Scholes came on

I was only judging him last night in so far as it was the end of his scoring run. I was also judging him on the end of his penalty streak and his scoring statistics in general.

I actually thought he did quite well last night, there was several situations where I expected to see him fall over in the penalty area but his normal balance escaped him.

Serbian

Here are a few statistics with which you can wow you friends and colleagues alike:

Ruud's penalty record since joining United:

Taken/Scored
Season: 2001/2002     4/4
        2002/2003     8/8
        2003/2004     1/0
Total:               13/12

So there you have it - 12 goals have been penalties for Ruud. To put that in perspective, in the same time frame, Shearer took 11 penalties and scored 8 , Thierry Henry took 9, scored 8 and Michael Owen took 5 and scored 3.

Also, in that time, Ruud has scored exactly 50 league goals, meaning 24% of all his league goals for United have been penalties. Shearer has scored 43 league goals in the same space of time, penalties account for 18.6% of that. 7.9% of Owens 38 goals were penalties.

[Edit: Forgot all about Henry!] This one is interesting, and will be a very valuable statistic for all you Arsenal fans with friends who are United supporters: In the same time frame, Henry scored 51 goals for Arsenal, 1 more than Van the Man, and only 15.7% of them were penalties. However, you do have to remember that Henry takes free kicks too. Still, it might just earn him the title of the most complete striker in the premiership.

GuanYin

So if we play with the stats:

Henry - 51 - 84.3% from open play
Van Nis - 50 - 76% from open play
Shearer - 43 - 81.4% from open play
Owen - 38 - 92.1% from open play

But better yet

Approx:
Henry 43 goals from open play
Van Nist 38 goals from open play
Shearer 35 goals from open play
Owen 35 goals from open play

Doesn't make Van Nist look anything special really.

I'd like to see Beatties figures.


Aren't stats fun?

The Muppet

Aren't stats fun?

The onlySoccer stats that matters are the ones in may which determine who the Champions are. Why dont ye analyize them since the premiership started and see how much fun the ABU's can get from them.:D

manic_monster

Another question - how many of RVN penalties did he win? I think you will find prob most of them.

GuanYin

Originally posted by The Muppet
The onlySoccer stats that matters are the ones in may which determine who the Champions are. Why dont ye analyize them since the premiership started and see how much fun the ABU's can get from them.:D

Wow... we lose an argument so go off topic to make ourselves feel big.

I'm not an ABU btw, but its interesting that you can't argue the case at hand.

p.pete

RVN also wins a lot of the free-kicks around the edge of the area. He certainly "won" the one giggs scored from on the opening weekend. People talk about the supply Beckham gave to RVN but I can see it as a two way thing.

colster

Originally posted by p.pete
So far this season we have seen the end to 2 of Ruuds remarkable runs.

Last night saw the end to his scoring in consecutive matches and previous to that we saw him miss his first penalty in ages.

We were sitting in the pub last night watching an average manu performance and discussing RVNs league goal tally. For manu he has scored something like 50 goals in sixty odd league appearances. These are amazing numbers but how many of these were penalties? We were reckoning around 15 (the exact figure would be appreciated) which changes things a little.

Ignoring 15 penalties would leave 35 goals in sixty odd games. So is RVN just an above average striker playing for a team that gets a lot of penalties?

I doubt if he got 15 penalties in just league games alone. Just looked at Opta and he has scored 82 times from 98 competitive games.
If you took 15 penalties away from that it's still an impressive 67 goals in 98 games which is 2 goals every 3 games.
Not bad eh!!

p.pete

We've already discovered that it was 12 penalties not 15. The statistics being concentrated on are the league as it is a fairer reflection of English strikers.

Has he only 98 appearances? Thats seems quite low if your counting his participation in league, league cup, fa cup and CL.

colster

If you want to compare Henry and RVN consider their CL records over the last 2 seasons.

RVN has played 22 games scoring 22 goals.
Henry had played 23 scoring 14 goals.

colster

If you also consider the PL goals per game record of RVN and Henry then you get this

RVN scored 51 times in 65 games
Henry scored 51 in 71 games

which means that RVN scores in 78% of PL matches against Henry's 71%.

This works out at RVN scoring 4.7 more goals if he had played the same 71 games as Henry.

Sposs

Q.E.D

GuanYin

Originally posted by colster
If you also consider the PL goals per game record of RVN and Henry then you get this

RVN scored 51 times in 65 games
Henry scored 51 in 71 games

which means that RVN scores in 78% of PL matches against Henry's 71%.

This works out at RVN scoring 4.7 more goals if he had played the same 71 games as Henry.

You really did miss the point of p.petes thread didn't you. :rolleyes:

p.pete

It makes the comparison with Henry quite interesting.
RVN: 51 goals - 12 pennos = 39 over 65 games => 0.6 / game
Henry: 51 - 8 = 43 over 71 games => 0.605 / game

Not really much in it at all. After that though I would reckon Henry has massively more assists.

Sposs

I think we can all just agree that there two world class strikers.

colster

Originally posted by sykeirl
You really did miss the point of p.petes thread didn't you. :rolleyes:

Excuse me but I did not miss the point he was making. I made 2 points one concerning RVNs record in Europe and the other to challenge some of the stats concerning the Premier League.
I don't think you can discard his penalties very lightly as how many goals from open play would he have scored had he not been fouled and give the penalty.

If he were an above average striker how can you explain away his unbelievable record in the CL for Man U 22 in 22.
Thats exceptional and you can't tell me that the CL is easier than the PL.

kmart6

Originally posted by p.pete
Not really much in it at all. After that though I would reckon Henry has massively more assists.

Definatly right about Henry abd more assists as he always drifts out to the left to cross a few

kmart6

Originally posted by Sposs
I think we can all just agree that there two world class strikers.

Exactly no need to argue over two amazing strikers

Serbian

Originally posted by sykeirl
I'd like to see Beatties figures.

Beatties Premiership Record [Between 2001/2002 and 2003/2004]

Goals: 36
Appearances: 69
Penalties: 7 from 7
Percentage: 19.4% Penalty Goals

If anyone is wondering where I am getting all these stats, or if you think I am just making them up, take a look at the Official Premiership's Stats Site. You have to do a little bit of work to compile useful stats out of it, but look at the great arguments you can start with it

The Muppet

Posted By Sykeirl

Wow... we lose an argument so go off topic to make ourselves feel big.I'm not an ABU btw, but its interesting that you can't argue the case at hand.

Touchy! Whos Arguing?:)

Everyone knows that stats can be made to suit any point. If you want to argue about RVN Goals fine but include them all and not discount a chunk of them to suit your stupid agenda.
The stat true soccer fans are most intested in are the ones in may that determine who the champions are and 8 out of the last 11 years that has been Utd. would you like to argue against that.
RVN won the golden boot last year as top striker in the prem Just pipping Henry (who is also a top class striker) . So Your "argument" is the usual ABU crap that united supporters are well used to from jealous supposed Soccer Fans of less successful clubs.

Now back to the purpose of my initial post.
You should get your Ignore Button checked as it appears to have malfunctioned and i would prefer not to have to read your whining ABU replies to my posts.


Your OK at flaming not too hot on recieving end though.

Now Welcome to Ignore:D

GuanYin

Originally posted by colster
Excuse me but I did not miss the point he was making. I made 2 points one concerning RVNs record in Europe and the other to challenge some of the stats concerning the Premier League.
I don't think you can discard his penalties very lightly as how many goals from open play would he have scored had he not been fouled and give the penalty.

If he were an above average striker how can you explain away his unbelievable record in the CL for Man U 22 in 22.
Thats exceptional and you can't tell me that the CL is easier than the PL.

The topic of the thread is how well Ruud compares to other strikers in the PL considering the amount of penalties Man Utd get compared to other teams.

This has nothing to do with the CL because the same players aren't playing the same teams or the same amount of games. We felt the league is a fair reflection (all the strikers have the same opportunity for games and play against the same teams). For that reason we discounted all domestic cups so its League games only, by which the stats are right. So you did miss the point.


I think they are both great strikers, but, Utd win an awful lot more penalties (aruably dubious penalties, especially wehn Ruud does his sniper victim impression) then other teams, so when you compare goals from open play it arguably gives a better indication of a strikers talents (or a teams performance). Ruud doesn't seem as almighty when you take away the penalties in comparison to other premiership strikers.

GuanYin

Originally posted by The Muppet
Posted By Sykeirl

Everyone knows that stats can be made to suit any point. If you want to argue about RVN Goals fine but include them all and not discount a chunk of them to suit your stupid agenda.

I didn't, read the post above to see why PL stats only is a fairer representation when comparing permiership strikers.

Originally posted by The Muppet
The stat true soccer fans are most intested in are the ones in may that determine who the champions are and 8 out of the last 11 years that has been Utd. would you like to argue against that.

No one even mention winning titles or who the best team was. Was Ruud around for the last 11 years? Cos this thread is about him..... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by The Muppet

RVN won the golden boot last year as top striker in the prem Just pipping Henry (who is also a top class striker) . So Your "argument" is the usual ABU crap that united supporters are well used to from jealous supposed Soccer Fans of less successful clubs.

Yup, hence the argument. Ruud got more penalties to take. But Henry scored more from open play and got a hell of a lot more assists. He also won all the player awards. The point of the argument is, considering he scores so many goals from penalties, is his superior scoring record a true reflection of his talents over other PL strikers. I would say not really.

Oh, and I'm not an ABU at all, I support Forest, so there are a about 25 teams I have to be jealous about first before I can even contemplate being jealous of Utd.

Originally posted by The Muppet

Your OK at flaming not too hot on recieving end though.

Firstly I was hardly being touchy. Secondly I wasn't whining, I was making an observation on how, as usual you fly off topic to trumpet your team and thirdly I don't believe you flamed me and if you did, I didn't notice so how did I react badly?


Oh and despite your insisance that I'm an ABU, you should have noticed that I give the same treatment to Arsenal and Liverpool fans. Don't flatter yourself

Serbian

Hey,

I was just looking at the stats on assists and found something interesting from the 2001 / 2002 season where Arsenal came 1st and United came 3rd.

Henry assisted 5 goals, but crossed the ball a whopping 98 times. Van Nistleroy crossed the ball only 10 times and also got 5 assists.

However, moving on a season and well, the result is a little more predictable: Ruud only crossed 6 times that season, and got 4 assists. Henry crossed the ball a respectable 81 times, but assisted an incredible 23 times. That means he got the last touch, or the second last touch on the ball, resulting in a goal 47 times. I think that's pretty impressive!

Personally, I think Henry is the best striker in English football at the moment. He may not score quite as many goals as Ruud, penalties or otherwise, but he can do so much with the ball that he is quite unpredictable.

The Muppet

Personally, I think Henry is the best striker in English football at the moment. He may not score quite as many goals as Ruud, penalties or otherwise, but he can do so much with the ball that he is quite unpredictable.

To Be honest they are both top quality strikers. Henry takes corners which would account for some of his assists. Rvn Does not and I would argue that a strikers of henrys obvious quality would probably get a few goal a season if he was in the centre and not taking them.

There is very little if anything between the two they are both world class.

p.pete

On the same basis that a lot of people complain about Liverpool, I would say Henry is much better than RVN. Much more excitement:D

p.pete

Serbian, thanks for all the stats!!!
Quick question, is there any link between crosses and assists? i.e. RVN can have 10 crosses and 5 assists, but maybe 0 assists were as a result of crosses.

The Muppet

On the same basis that a lot of people complain about Liverpool,

Indeed and its so unjustified too.:D

Now that liverpool have been mentioned any chance of the stats for Mr. Heskey .:D

p.pete

Originally posted by The Muppet
Now that liverpool have been mentioned any chance of the stats for Mr. Heskey .:D

Leave Hesky out of this - he's a left sided midfielder:D

His strike rate is probably comparable to RVNs assists. It would howver be interesting to see Heskys crosses & assists because if he is not even doing that right then I really am baffled as to his pressence.

Sposs

I think This Settles all arguments

p.pete

Who's arguing We are merely discussing the merits of his achievments.

He is definitely above average as a striker and excellent as a penalty taker.

The article you are linking to is also more of a reflection of his form in europe, which is quite fantastic. We are trying to avoid that area however as it muddies the comparisons with other premiership players.

BKtje

so when you compare goals from open play it arguably gives a better indication of a strikers talents

You can't just ignore penalties, it scews the stats up either way. True he went down easily enough on some occasions but how many times would if he have scored if he hadn't been brought down? If you take away penalties you gotta take away free kicks as well (and corner from the assit stats). Im sure there are other things you'd need to take away but at this stage its already getting silly.

As someone said, stats can be mis-leading.

PHB

Here are some more stats.

Van :

Assists: 4
Crosses: 6

Henry :
Assists: 23
Crosses: 81


Now I can work these stats either way to make either player look better.

Van is a striker, thats what he does, he sits around the area and scores goals. Henry is more of a foward player, he floats in and out of the area.

They are essentially two different positions imo so comparing them is kinda pointless

p.pete

Given that they both score roughly 0.6 goals per game - would have thought they were pretty equal as strikers. Henry setting up more goals just means that he is more valuable to his team and makes more of a contribution (also note that Henry is able to contribute without resorting to conning referees)

Serbian

Originally posted by p.pete
Serbian, thanks for all the stats!!!
Quick question, is there any link between crosses and assists? i.e. RVN can have 10 crosses and 5 assists, but maybe 0 assists were as a result of crosses.

Hey p.pete,

There is no link whatsoever between crosses and assists You could have 0 crosses and 50 assists.

As an aside: Statistics are a very American way of viewing a game. If you were to watch a baseball game or an American Football game, all you see on the screen are averages and totals. Statistics do have a place in sport, but I think the importance placed on stats in baseball, American football ice hockey etc is crazy. They just don't tell the whole story. You can't really statistically measure things like goal saving tackles, or those crunching tackles in midfield to win the ball back and start another lightning quick counter attack. I know this thread was originally about Van Nistleroy's penalty tally, but it has diversified somewhat from that.

Having said that, here are Heskey's stats Liverpool supporters may find the following report distressing.

2001 / 2002 35 appearances, 9 goals, 6 assists, 30 crosses
2002 / 2003 32 appearances, 6 goals, 3 assists, 43 crosses
2003 / 2004 02 appearances, 0 goals, 0 assists, 00 crosses

---

Grand Total: 69 appearances, 15 goals, 9 assists, 73 crosses

---

p.pete

Very interesting - Hesky has more goals than assists:(

The Muppet

2003 / 2004 02 appearances, 0 goals, 0 assists, 00 crosses

LOL

Does the Prolific Heskey have a double at anfield as I,m sure I have seen him play this season.

Oh I see he played twice:D

Any chance of Owens Stats ?

AthAnRi

Posted By p.pete
Ignoring 15 penalties would leave 35 goals in sixty odd games. So is RVN just an above average striker playing for a team that gets a lot of penalties?

Just a quick question. Why would you ignore penalties? Are they not goals. As it has been proven over the last two seasons a Penalty does not mean a goal. It's a measure of a Strikers composure. If your going to use such characteristics as playmaking and skill then you also have to include this characteristic.

Also I would be curious to see how many of these penalties were actually won by Van the Man.

Personally I think Thierry Henry is a brillant striker and is the best all round player. Ruud I think is the better traditional striker.

p.pete

Originally posted by AthAnRi
Ruud I think is the better traditional striker.

I don't think it was ever a characteristic of "traditional" strikers to spontaniously fall over at the slightest touch, although maybe you do?

BKtje

also note that Henry is able to contribute without resorting to conning referees

I know this isn't strickly sportmanship but conning a ref is contributing if it gets your team a win. Not that i approve tho.

I don't think it was ever a characteristic of "traditional" strikers to spontaniously fall over at the slightest touch, although maybe you do?

He might go over easier that someplayer but dont over exagerate plz or ill have to over exagerate on Liverpools **** performances (now that would be a challenge as they do a good enough job of making themselves look dodgy).

The Muppet

True RVN has gone down too easily in the past but he showed signs of stopping this near the end of last season. You do have to remember he is a continental player and they tend to fall down as if shot if any contact is made. .

smuckers

Paul Butler did snuff him out but he's still a class player and one game doesn't tell anything as for the best striker I think Van Nist is a better goalscorer than Henry but Henry has lots of attributes that Van Nist doesn't have.

p.pete

Now that Liverpool have won a match I would like to say that RVN is an excellent striker, not just above average (still not as good as Henry tho). I would also like to thank all manu fans who responded to this thread, indulging me in a bit of escapism while the pool needed a little attention deflected away from them, thanks again.

The Muppet

Now that Liverpool have won a match I would like to say that RVN is an excellent striker,

When normal service at anfiel is resumed next week hopefully:D I will remind you of this post.

BKtje

2 weeks surely? Internationals next week

The Muppet

2 weeks surely? Internationals next week

Yeah hadnt realised we had the russian game next week.

p.pete

Originally posted by The Muppet
Yeah hadnt realised we had the russian game next week.

How did you manage that? Feel free to remind me, I'll twist it and get you off track - oh so easy:D

The Muppet

How did you manage that? Feel free to remind me, I'll twist it and get you off track - oh so easy

Andy and Dwight will sort out that grin for you next match.:D

p.pete

Is the blackburn game coming up? I was about to add Cole and Amoruso to my fantasy team, I'll hold out a while longer so:D