Michelin tyres - Illegal ??

celticfc · 31-08-2003 1:32pm #1

The FIA, has ruled that, the Michelin tyres which have been a lot faster than the bridgestone tyres this year could be illegal.

The ruling may mean that Michelin has to scrap its current tyres & that all the teams who use Michelin tyres might boycott the Italian grand prix @ monza.

See here for more info

jonno · 01-09-2003 3:55pm

I doubt it will come to anything if Bernie Eccelstone gets involved, it could be just a publicity stunt, although that might explain why they are so quick:)

celticfc · 01-09-2003 3:59pm

Let me put it this way, do yez really think ferrari have gone backwards ??

zeris · 01-09-2003 4:16pm

Its typical F1 smoke and mirrors. The FIA haven't said that the Michelins are illegal. In fact none of the news reports have said that Michelin was even mentioned in the letter to the teams. Remember, this was a letter to the teams, not a press release. Of course, we infer Michelin and are correct in doing so, but in two weeks time the FIA can simply say the issue was brought to the attention of the teams and thats all. Topic dropped.

Mr E will not let half the field, including all but one of the title hopefuls be disqualified at the end of the race. Mr E is not going to let Michelin _not_ turn up Monza, although if they didn't we could expect to see a full field on Bridgestones which would be interesting. What may end up happening is that the Michelin runners will have to run a harder compound and not run as long on each set. Still a penality compared to the Bridgestone runners.

This is however a pretty dangerous subject for the FIA to start poking at. The ambigious rules regarding not just thread width but also thread height at the end of the race has been an issue since the threaded tyres where introduced.

jonno · 01-09-2003 4:25pm

Originally posted by celticfc
Let me put it this way, do yez really think ferrari have gone backwards ??

You have a point there. Granted Williams have made a massive improvement but where would McLaren getting the performances from if not for their tyres?? There is either something up with the Michellins or else they have a bunch of sh1t cool engineers that can come up with such a brilliant tyre in the soace of half a season

celticfc · 01-09-2003 4:51pm

Originally posted by jonno
You have a point there. Granted Williams have made a massive improvement but where would McLaren getting the performances from if not for their tyres?? There is either something up with the Michellins or else they have a bunch of sh1t cool engineers that can come up with such a brilliant tyre in the soace of half a season

Absolutely,

Before Monaco this season, Williams weren't in serious contention for any race. (Ferrari, McLaren & Jordan won the 1st 6 races)
I was very surprised to see them so bad & the suddenly they overtook everybody in performance.

Very strange.

Da Man · 01-09-2003 8:10pm

My understanding:

This debacle has to do with tread width. The regulations state that the tyre is checked at the beginning of the race, not at any other time. Michelin is using the maximum tread width allowed. Bridgestone has chosen another design with narrower tread width because this suits Ferrari (and probably no other team). Wider tread means more grip but narrower tread means higher speed due to lower rolling friction. Williams and McLaren have designed their cars around the Michelin tyre.

It's quite likely that Ferrari is trying this regulation change/confirmation to cause trouble for Michelin and their partners, knowing full well that they've taken another design approach.

irishman_abroad · 02-09-2003 4:23pm

The tyres are actually checked both before and after the race but there has been nothing done about it.

This issue is all about a re-interpretation of the rules by the FIA.

The regulations state that the tyre is checked at the beginning of the race, not at any other time. Michelin is using the maximum tread width allowed

This is true and if the tyres are at the max when new, then because of the slope on the inside of the grooves the tyres will naturally gain a larger contact patch with the road. This would also explain why the Michelins used to have a crap few laps and then get quicker, also why the teams would put on scrubbed tyres at the pit stops.

zeris · 02-09-2003 5:18pm

This is true and if the tyres are at the max when new, then because of the slope on the inside of the grooves the tyres will naturally gain a larger contact patch with the road.

As far as I understand the FIA rules, the grooves have to be perpendicular to the axis of the tyre. This wouldn't allow for sloped sides.

irishman_abroad · 02-09-2003 5:31pm

c) Each front dry-weather tyre, when new, must incorporate 4 grooves which are:
- arranged symmetrically about the centre of the tyre tread;
- at least 14mm wide at the contact surface and which taper uniformly to a minimum of 10mm at the lower surface;
- at least 2.5mm deep across the whole lower surface;
- 50mm (+/- 1.0mm) between centres.

taken from

The grooves are tapered

/edit

HUH also from above site

Although there are currently no regulations on tyre wear during a race, the FIA reserve the right to introduce appropriate procedures if they feel teams are obtaining a performance gain from using very worn tyres.

zeris · 02-09-2003 5:45pm

Yep, should have read my little yellow book before posting. What is also of note:

f) Tyre specifications will be determined by the FIA no later than 1 September of the previous season. Once determined in this way, the specification of the tyres will not be changed during the Championship season without the agreement of the Formula One Commission.

So the sending of the letter to teams and tyre manufacturers was pretty timely.

irishman_abroad · 03-09-2003 4:22pm

Michelin now want permission to run thier illegal tyres in Italy saying theyll fix it before America.

Thatll be a quick decision... hmmmm NO!!!!!

thats just stupid.....

please can we have our illegal tyres for one more race, because well you caught us at the most inoppertune time and it wouldnt be fair to all our teams to lose thier unfair advantage so soon, and its all Ferraris fault for seeing that we were cheating and telling on us because they lost the lead in the Con Chp, Thats the real reason youre doing this coz Ferrari sed so. neeeeah

Trojan · 03-09-2003 5:33pm

Originally posted by irishman_abroad
Michelin now want permission to run thier illegal tyres in Italy saying theyll fix it before America.

Source?

I'm with Michelin & Williams/McL in this argument - FIA rules are way too ambigious and subject to interpretation, and this letter to the teams contributes even more to this unclear situation. The FIA need to clarify their rules just like they did after the Ferrari team orders incident last year. It's unfair to do that with 3 races to go.

Al.

Woden · 03-09-2003 5:44pm

Originally posted by zeris

f) Tyre specifications will be determined by the FIA no later than 1 September of the previous season. Once determined in this way, the specification of the tyres will not be changed during the Championship season without the agreement of the Formula One Commission.

If its the first of sepetember of the previous season how can they change the regulations now? or am i just totally confused by the issue?

napalm@night · 03-09-2003 5:52pm

Here we go more people saying let them away with it... well get a grip(no pun intended!) If you look around any of the f1 websites these days they all BLAME ferrari for it and say thats its ruining the sport agin at a special time! Well enough is enough what would have happened in the press if this was ferrari Bridgestone! There would have been uproar! But no becuase its everybody else that might suffer well its ferrari fault for telling on people who are use dodgy tyres....If anybody rembers last year the f1 racing mag published a big 2 PAGE Spread on the F2002 and how it was illigeal and guess how it turned out..the car was perfectly legal...F1 racing again this year publishes just after monaco a page this time on how the Bridgestone tyres are illigeal in the next issue they had to say sorry beacuse they 2 were legal...by the way.

So on both counts with not a fact or an FIA ruling between people were saying Ferrari or Bridgestone were doing wrong when they werent...Now its the other boys who really do apear to be in the wrong and people are saying o for the good of f1 leave it be...or if there not pulling that 1 its...Ferraris fualt for telling the FIA...

Yours threading carefully
K man

irishman_abroad · 03-09-2003 6:03pm

The French marque, which may find its F1 tyres illegal after the Italian race in Monza, are requesting that the FIA defers a new ruling until the US Grand Prix.

f1 Racing.net

Woden · 04-09-2003 8:45am

So does that mean the tyres are legal now but after the ruling they will not be legal?

irishman_abroad · 04-09-2003 8:53am

It means that the tyres were legal because the legality was never checked after they were used, but now thay are going to start the checks they will be found to be illegal...

if that makes sense

Woden · 04-09-2003 9:00am

so they don't check at the moment which makes them currently legal, they just want to stop the checking until america to give them time to fix them for the new regulation. sound fair to me

irishman_abroad · 04-09-2003 9:46am

cept that they told them informally after the hungarian GP so they knew this was coming

Woden · 04-09-2003 11:11am

informally though means nothing, they probably did take it into consideration and could get the new tyres out faster but they don't want to let anyone know that and would like another race out of the old tyres to improve there chances to win the championship?

irishman_abroad · 04-09-2003 11:21am

They were testing the new tyres yesterday with 2 blow outs my point was that they saw this coming and instead of trying to develop the smaller tyre as best they could they decided to get thick and dig thier heels in. If/ When they run thier tyres in the legal spec they can do so in the knoledge that they wasted the time from hungary to now bitching about Ferrari turning them in instead of actually making/developing a legal tyre.

jonno · 04-09-2003 3:13pm

Monza will be an interesting event if Michellin decide to use legal tyres. They seem to be having mixed fortunes with the testing of the same tyre as was mentioned above. So MAYBE they is some light at the end of the tunnell for Bridgestone

chernobyl · 04-09-2003 3:23pm

Originally posted by Dataisgod
so they don't check at the moment which makes them currently legal, they just want to stop the checking until america to give them time to fix them for the new regulation. sound fair to me

Then Ferrari could do this and win.

Tough ****, they were caught cheatin. This is actually huge. 16mm more rubber on the track per thread is huge.

Trojan · 04-09-2003 3:39pm

Thanks for the link irish (very slanted article btw)!

People are saying they're illegal. If they are truly illegal, then I 100% agree with the harsh standpoint taken by some here.

But the issue for me is that the FIA have left a loophole in their rules, which makes the tyres legal under the current check system.

Michelin found the loophole, and exploited it as far as it could.

So what? That's what the entire sport of F1 is about - finding a little edge somewhere or other, and turning that into a huge advantage. I don't consider that illegal, not given the history of F1.

Don't start revoking victories and points just because this loophole is bigger than the one Ferrari had no trouble with exploiting last season (namely Team Orders).]

(from site linked just above)
Michelin contends that the FIA clarification amounts to a rule change and as such should have been delayed until next season.

Agreed.
Al.

irishman_abroad · 04-09-2003 3:53pm

K Trojan I take your point but by the same logic Ferrari should exploit article 179b of the international sporting code as below to the fullest extent and challenge all the preceeding results.

ie a small loophole exploited to gain a huge advantage.

Could you imagine though - all the Michelin cars having thier results revoked since the start of the year.

Pity Jordan still wouldnt score any more points than they already have:p

/edit sorry just read its only from San Marino(4th race) when the tyres in question were introduced

zeris · 04-09-2003 5:37pm

Maybe the Michelin runners can give the stewards a Ferrari tape measure.

Just as long as it doesn't taint the WDC if a Michelin runner wins it.

Trojan · 04-09-2003 5:55pm

Originally posted by irishman_abroad
K Trojan I take your point but by the same logic Ferrari should exploit article 179b of the international sporting code as below to the fullest extent and challenge all the preceeding results.

ie a small loophole exploited to gain a huge advantage.

That's a circular argument.

I think it'd be a sham, and possibly the end of the sport, if the Ferrari camp win and have all results disqualified.

I've been losing interest in the sport for years (since the fatal crashes) and this could be the last straw. It's a great sport to follow, especially to go and see in person, but it's too expensive to do that often, and it's losing appeal on tv.

We'll see what happens I guess.

Al.

chernobyl · 05-09-2003 2:28am

Michelin will introduce a new tyre [Monza] and Ferrari wont launch any appeal. Thats how it will go.

irishman_abroad · 05-09-2003 9:12am

I agree with you Trojan that it shouldnt come to that and Id hate to see it, but from Ferraris point of view they if they lose the championship(s) they will be losing to teams who have been cheating since the fourth racee of the season so you can see thier side of all this.

This whole thing doesnt account for the total lack of pace in the Ferrari lately though... Thats a big thing for me to admit being a HUGE Ferrari fan

irishman_abroad · 05-09-2003 11:37am

heh
Michelin are mad to sue someone over this whole thing

Newspaper

or

Ross Brawn

Woden · 05-09-2003 12:02pm

so basically until the rule or interpreation of the reglation is changed the tyres are legal? so michelin have not been cheating since the fourth race and bridgestone didn't have the intelligence to do the same. so the race results should stand

irishman_abroad · 05-09-2003 12:46pm

No the only reason they changed is coz they realised that they were illegal and have been for some time and the sporting regs say that if something is new found out there can be a hearing to explain it. This has to be done before 30 November, from prev post

Woden · 05-09-2003 1:10pm

i'll admit i'm quite confused by this all, i thought the current regulations state that tyres are only checked at the start of the race, where the michelins are found the be within the legal limits?

Da Man · 05-09-2003 5:04pm

Michelin is certainly of the opinion that they're legal. It would be useful if one of the many F1 sites that just reprint each other's or magazine articles could actually explain what the hell is going on.

From reading some of the articles, it sounds like the issue is during the race where the Michelin's deform in a manner that gives them a greater footprint.

Also from reading some of the articles, and I think I mentioned this above, Ferrari and Bridgestone deliberately went for a narrower tread than the regulations allow for design reasons that had nothing to do with the regulations, so they can complain about Michelin in the safe knowledge that the Bridgestones are ok.

The issue is incidently more than just the tyres, as the cars are obviously designed to work best with the current tyre.

Kalina · 06-09-2003 8:35pm

I think Ferrari's behaviour in the whole thing is a disgrace, they got away with last years Austrian debacle and previously the illegal barge boards and now they can't accept that they are being beaten fair and square. I reckon they're just sore cos they didn't get a contract with Michelin for this season. Michelin found a loophole, as somebody said above, and expolited it and they're right to do so. If their teams lose their results because Ferrari went crying to Max Mosley and Charlie Whiting it will destroy F1.

irishman_abroad · 07-09-2003 1:39pm

Thats bull youre only saying that coz its Ferrari. If it was McLaren (bargeboards) or anyone else its only fair because Ferrari must be cheating but if Ferrari does it theyre just being malicious. Fact is Bridgestone pionted out to Ferrari that the Michelins had a large footprint (up to 16mm over the 270mm limit), ie outside the allowed ammount. This is cheating. So could you please explain to me why Ferrari are a disgrace...

cough

Trojan · 07-09-2003 9:24pm

Originally posted by irishman_abroad
Fact is Bridgestone pionted out to Ferrari that the Michelins had a large footprint (up to 16mm over the 270mm limit), ie outside the allowed ammount. This is cheating.

If your statement were true, then that would be cheating. But it's not. Under the current rules the types are legal. That's fact.

(Take off your pro-Ferrari blinders, you sound like a ManU fan.)

Woden · 08-09-2003 8:37am

Originally posted by Trojan
Under the current rules the types are legal. That's fact.

I think thats the main point here, the tyres are legal they can change all the regulations they want to make anything illegal, but as it stands theres nothing wrong with them

irishman_abroad · 08-09-2003 9:48am

And you can take off your ABF(U) glasses and back up your disgrace comment taking Bergers comments into account

Trojan · 08-09-2003 1:39pm

Originally posted by irishman_abroad
And you can take off your ABF(U) glasses and back up your disgrace comment taking Bergers comments into account

lol

I am actually ABU, but that's besides the point

Berger said their protest is legit, that's all. Not that it was true.

I believe you may again be reading too much into what people have said.

Al.

irishman_abroad · 08-09-2003 2:04pm

k let me spell it out...
How are Ferrari a disgrace if even the teams affected by the rule change agree that:

thier protest is legit

irishman_abroad · 08-09-2003 2:05pm

On a seperate note, all this tyre crap has really actually hightened my anticipation of the last three races and I cant wait to see whats going to happen.

Trojan · 08-09-2003 3:33pm

Originally posted by irishman_abroad
k let me spell it out...
How are Ferrari a disgrace if even the teams affected by the rule change agree that their protest is legit

I don't recall using the word "disgrace".

Again, you're reading more into a sentence than what it actually says.

The fact that it is legitimit to protest X does not make X illegal.

And I agree with you that it's making things interesting

irishman_abroad · 08-09-2003 3:35pm

Oops Sorry Trojan, my most humble apologies it was Kalina

Michelin tyres - Illegal ??

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