the wheel of time

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

feists' magician/riftwar series is ****ing brilliant
the first few anyway.. after the serpentwar saga it started to slip imo.. i haven't read any of them after "Prince of krondor", the font size jumped and the book size shrank.. never a good combination, they read like childrens novels

ixoy

If I read any of the following in Book 10 of the WoT I will personally book a plane to go out and smack Robert Jordan:

* If Nynaeve tugs her braids because Lan/Whatever frustrates her
* If Rand laments how he doesn't have skill with the women like Perrin or Mat
* If Perrrin laments how he doesn't have skill wth the women like Rand or Mat
* If Mat laments how he doesn't have skill with the women like Rand or Perrin
* If Jordan shoves down our throats again how the women can maniuplate the men. You know what? We bloody well get it.
* If the Aes Sedai have another meeting in which they sit around, drink tea, and talk in oh-so-smart double-talk.

Looking at my list, I think I better be booking tickets...anyone want to come along?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

I'll gather up the posse

OfflerCrocGod

I'll bring along the 12 Gauge MHAAAAHAA:D

DapperGent

Originally posted by Mordeth
I'll gather up the posse

Can I use my knuckle dusters?

Afterwards we can nail his coffin shut for him.

edited to remove naughty word (is it really worth the effort you have to go to just to sound like a lad?). No more of this please. (and yes, me in bad mood).

echomadman

To be honest, this thread shouldn't be in a "literature" forum at all,
I'll defend the validity of sci/fi fantasy as "proper" literature till the day I die, but I'm frankly embarrased by the hackneyed repetitive crap that WoT has become, anyone looking to denigrate the genre need look no further than WoT for ammunition.
He's getting as bad as gemmel and eddings for recycling chunks of text nigh on verbatim from book to book.
When's that posse heading out?

LoLth

repetitive? cut 'n ' pasted text from others in the series.... robert jordan?

are you sure you arent talking about his Conan stint?

echomadman

nope, ixoy already brought it up

* If Nynaeve tugs her braids because Lan/Whatever frustrates her
* If Rand laments how he doesn't have skill with the women like Perrin or Mat
* If Perrrin laments how he doesn't have skill wth the women like Rand or Mat
* If Mat laments how he doesn't have skill with the women like Rand or Perrin
* If Jordan shoves down our throats again how the women can maniuplate the men. You know what? We bloody well get it.
* If the Aes Sedai have another meeting in which they sit around, drink tea, and talk in oh-so-smart double-talk.

I haven't read the conan books, but if he does it there then it's obviously a trait of his.

ixoy

Originally posted by echomadman
I haven't read the conan books, but if he does it there then
it's obviously a trait of his.

Neither have I, but surely the consistent repitition of the same themes, without expanding on them, or not getting the characters to develop beyond their original thoughts... surely that's just bad writing. Fantasy can produce great literature - look at the George R. R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" - but hackneyed prose and stilted developments, coupled with poorly constructed storylines, just, as you say, can give the genre a bad name, particularly when the WoT is amongst the biggest selling (if no longer actually in that much favour).

DapperGent

Originally posted by LoLth
is it really worth the effort you have to go to just to sound like a lad?

Sorry but I just hate the ****ing stars.

LoLth

no problem dapper, we just have to remember that kids may read these posts and at least the stars dont teach them words they dont already know.

As for Conan, no tugging of braids etc, and no women manipulating men (well not much) - conan books were almost as sexist and "male fantasy" as the Gor books. But the descriptions of cities, Conan himself, women's bodies, the weather, minor characters etc were all cut and paste and sometimes used multiple times in the same book. thankfully the books were quite short

Jordan seems to be able to come up with good characters but lacks the ability to flesh them out in a variety of ways. Instead he just picks one trait and repeats it until the reader goes "oh, so it's important then" and then keeps repeating it until the reader gets bored.

TheSonOfBattles

Wow, I remember when this thread started out it was just a few question's about the Wheel of Time, and now look what's happened, it's just a page for Jordan Bashing. No one saying anything good anymore about Jordan, or asking question's about the series.

And please, don't bother saying it, I already know the next several replies will be along the lines of

"Because there is nothing good to say about him anymore, bladeh, bladeh, blah." If you've got nothing good to say, then say nothing at all.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Jesus christ, we are discussing the series in our own way. if we want to talk about how ****e we feel it has gotten, WE WILL. if we want to talk about how pissed off we are that jordan is milking the series for every cent he can squeeze out, WE WILL.

as for asking questions about the series, I have asked every bloody question I have thought of 3-4 times by now on many other forums, I've enjoyed many a night mulling over a few wot theories, fanfics, and just discussing the novels with friends. I am well and truly sick of it by now, it has gone on too long. The series has dropped considerably in quality, anyone who argues that point must have been reading the wrong books by mistake .

if you have some questions about twot, ask em... they will be discussed, if you have something good to say bout jordan .. say it. it will be discussed. but don't start bitching at other people because they aren't saying what you want them to say.

LoLth

Never said Jordan wasnt a good writer. Just pointed out one area where I think he is flawed (and this opinion is based on more than just the wheel of time series, which is, by and large, most people's ONLY exposure to his work).

I have enjoyed the WOT series up to now (havent read the latest one yet) and must admit to being more enthuastic when it started. Probably because with the level of detail Jordan has put into the work, I cannot see any possibility of an ending that would do it justice.

Also, one book (8?) seemed to just be an intro for the next book (path of daggers?)

In contrast, I have read all of Robin Hobbs works since the assassain series and I am still very much looking forward to the third of the Fool series.

TheSonOfBattles

Yea, true, the Wheel Of Time has been the only Jordan works i've read so far.

But I feel no need to ask questions here for two simple reasons. I've asked anything I want to ask on other forums, as you can see i'm only here with a few days, so I don't feel the need to ask them here. The other reason is that i'd rather get them in a neutral/positive forum, rather than have my views completely trashed each time they're expressed. Its fun, but somewhat depressive also.

Your right, i'm not happy that people only come in here to bitch about Jordan, I didn't ask you to stop coming though, just to stop being so negative all the time.

TheSonOfBattles

Chr**t!! I sounded like a hippy in that last reply.

Sorry.

Quigs Snr

Well, I didn't bitch. I loved the series so far from start to finish. So there.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Like the writing and like the books but you have gotta admit that as it is going now, there is no end in sight and that is a shame because as it goes on, I am losing a little more interest every book.

TheSonOfBattles

I'm not alone, oh THANK GOD!! Thank you Quigs, was beginning to despair there for a while.

Anyways, my actual point to this reply, I did admit awhile back in this thread that I was thinking that it was gonna be endless to, but after reading book ten's end, the pace does seem to have picked up again, and it looks like the end may finally be in sight, albiet in about 4 books time.

LoLth

I had heard a rumour before that it was going to be a 15 book cycle. If i can find out where I read that, I'll post a link

Quigs Snr

After book 10 was written Jordan said at an interview and at several book signings that there would be 12 books in total. Worst case 13, but he was pretty confident at 12.

In my opinion to end in 2 books he would need to drop a nuclear weapon on half the characters and have a massive event to end a lot of plotlines. 13 books seems more credible.

Also he now intends lauching a book every year. With WOT books every 2 years and in the alternate years, prequel books.

New Spring, is going to be published in January and it is a prequel book set 20 years before WOT where Morraine meets lan and they begin their quest. Its based on a short story (bout 60 pages) also called New Spring which appeared in a TOR short story collection called Legends. It's pretty good. The book is going to be an expanded version of this,and I think I read that he has planned at least 3 prequels to the WOT. The obvious question is won't this slow down the completion of WOT, his publisher, TOR says it won't.


Actually TheSonOfBattles, seems you're a fellow Waterfordian. Have been finding it occasionally difficult to pick up WOT books down here, the book centre always appear to have every one except the one I am looking for. Currently I have the World of Robert Jordans wheel of time, co written with Theresa Patterson on order from them, supposed also to be a decent read, gives a bit of background on the Forsaken etc....

TheSonOfBattles

Yes, yes I am. And never really had too much trouble finding any of his books. Always went to my local book store, the owner of which I was good friends with as I was one of his most frequent buyers, who always got them for me quickly.

Never bought the World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. Got it out from the Library a fair few times, never got round to buying it though. Thanks for reminding me. ww)

And read that Legends book ages ago as well, again never bought, the short story was good enough, I hope he tells more of the start of their quest to be honest, and where they found the clues to tracking down Rand. Rather than just an expanded version of the short story itself.

Can't wait for the next book meself. Don't have a clue when it's out, but your right, I can't see it ending in 2 books.

Ah well, could be wrong, guess i'll have to wait and see.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

the world of twot is a pretty cool book, loved the pictures and background info on all the creatures and characters

echomadman

I enjoyed that short story a lot,
Maybe a lttle backstory can revitalise the series, and allow him to reach a conclusion without bogging down the story much more.

Kraken

to really kick rand in the head while he is down it appears that as he kills the forsaken (the choosen) they seem to be reborn. probably cause they are all dark and evil and will add at least another 14 books to the series.

dont get me wrong i quiet like the series it has its oh no not again parts but most books do but not to same extent.

alot of the characters seem to switch roles during the book in relation to each other.

i.e rand and moraine, egewene and lans chick cant be bothered spell her name. (never was good at spelling) am sure there are more. just too much thought would be needed to go through them all.

TheSonOfBattles

And, what's wrong with the Forsaken coming back. Yes, it's annoying that no bad guy ever seem's to stay dead, 'cept maybe

Asmodean

, but that just means there'll be more bad guy's get slaughtered at the end, and better One Power fight scene's. No?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

stinks of a bad plot to me, but then again I'm not a wot fanboy.

ixoy

What's wroing with is that it's lazy writing.

Jordan: Damn and blast! I've killed off the threats to the character! What should I do? Oh I know, bring them back!
Critic: But doesn't that undermine the effort to kill them in the first place?
Jordan: Shut up or I'll add another book to the series!
Critic: Yeah, but if you keep returning the person it's just recycling. Why can't you create a new threat that actually invokes terror? How can a reader be afraif of someone they know can be killed?!
Jordan: BECAUSE. Just BECAUSE. I've added two books to the series now because of you.
Critic: Jesus man, can't you do something fresh with the series? Resurrection smacks of a lack of creativity.
Jordan: Wheel of time turns. Again. And again. Three books now. Plus a bonus chapter on Nynaeve pulling her braids while she thinks of Lan.
Critic: Jesus give it a rest and start wrapping it up.
Jordan: Five extra books. A spin-off book also on Rand, Matt, and Perrin's views on how the others know women.
Critic: You're a wanker.
Jordan: Eight books. And I'm introducing fifty new characters each book.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

rofl, classic

TheSonOfBattles

Yea, I suppose I am a bit of a fanboy indeed. Anyways, like you said it is a bit ****ty that the bad guys keep coming back, but i'm just looking at the bright side. The ending will have more carnage, and the last battle will be that bit more exciting, there'll be more equility in terms of One Power users.

One of the things that draws me back to this series each time, and the two things about the end of the series that i'm looking forward to is:

A) Will Rand die, cause it is entirely possible. And...

will the cycle of the Wheel of Time actually be broken, or will it just begin again.?