Should Ireland hire some Kenyans?

Ed Healey

Should Ireland follow he lead of Denmark and Finland and hire some Kenyans to do out distance running fo us?

I'm not trying to be racist or anything here but what is the message sent to the up and coming runners in those countries?

Train as hard as you can and become the best in the country and when you are a senior we will just bring in the Kenyans for the serious business...

ecksor

I didn't think that any money was on offer from Denmark for Kipketer's services, didn't he go to college there and marry a Dane?

I can't remember what Robert Anderson used to be called

What Qatar are doing is crazy though. Certainly not encouraging to their own athletes and no reflection upon their success as a nation in my opinion. I don't understand why they do it. One Kim Collins is worth a million imports to a nation like that.

Pherekydes

Wrong again, Ed. Finland and Denmark never hired or bought athletes. Kipketer, Kiplagat and Kirwa all emigrated.
Just like plenty of American born athletes have done...
I'm sure with the number of Nigerian immigrants here that it's only a matter of time before we have a world class sprinter.

Ed Healey

I would be willing to guess that there was a special welcome extended to these immigrants...

You don't think there were incentives offered to abandon sunny Africa for the northerly climes?

davelerave

they're also guaranteed places on a weaker nations team at the major championships,it's one of our own that trains
many of the kenyans maybe we should try and hire him

Pherekydes

And should we not extend a special welcome to immigrants, especially those who are fleeing for their lives?

The only way to stir the gene pool...

MartinNutty

Hi Slow,

A country which opens its arms to refugees fleeing famine or political opression is laudable. A country which encourages immigration of the athletically talented in order to boost medal count is somewhat questionable.

The FAI of the 80s are included in this sentiment.

When an athlete makes his home in other land for reasons other then ease of access to a major championship, I'm all in favor of supporting that athlete's right to represent his or her adopted country.

Martin

Originally posted by Slow coach
And should we not extend a special welcome to immigrants, especially those who are fleeing for their lives?

The only way to stir the gene pool...

LegacyUser

What Is Wrong With You People You Think You Can Just Buy Off People With Money After All The Hardships They Have Gone Through To Represent Their Country You Think You Can Just Buy Them Off ?what You Are Even Thinking F Doing Is Mad! Why Don`yt You Use That Money To Train Your Young Ones And Help Your People For God Sake What Is This Country Coming Too.

Pherekydes

KENYAN-ANGEL wrote:

You Think You Can Just Buy Off People With Money.

Nobody suggested buying off Kenyans.

Go back and read the posts.

Common Sense

I'm afraid I'm a bit of schizophrenic on this. I'd be totally opposed to what Qatar is doing. On the other hand I have no objection to someone like Alistair Cragg representing a country for which genealogically he is entitled to hold a passport. On this I disagree with Martin - all of the Irish players of that era could legitimately obtain Irish passports - whether they were needed for sport or any other reason. Indeed, Martin I'm of the opinion that you're living in the States (don't know why I think that); so would you like you're children or grandchildren (assuming you had such) should be deprived of running or jumping or throwing for Ireland if they so wished.?

RedBranchKnight

Clearly the answer to the question is NO we should not "hire" Kenyans....but the worrying aspect of the question is Eds clause"as Denmark and Finland" because the most generous treatment of the reason for the clause is that Ed is being humourous.
Denmark and Finland have NOT "hired" them and to seriously suggest that they have done so would be just plain wrong.. Denmark and Finland are decent nations with decent standards of behaviour and (not being totally aware of the Finnish example) Kiprogut is a Danish citizen on account of marrying a Danish citizen. If the authorities in Denmark clearly accept this as genuine, its hardly appropriate for me to not accept it.
Qatar is of course a totally different story and as that story is generally known its odd that Ed hasnt included it in his example of hiring. In the Qatari story the "facts" are generally accepted that a rich country (Qatar) has trawled to find athletes from other poorer countries to fast track to citizenship.
While that might be legal in Qatar its a highly unethical thing to do. I am not well up on Qatars human rights record but I suspect its different from Denmark and Finland. Are Qatari women encouraged in athletics for example? I dont know either but I know its odd that the question "hiring" athletes left out the most blatant example and concentrated on non-examples.
It is only a matter of time before one of Irelands new citizens from Nigeria (or their children) emerges as a sprinter. The more the merrier...heck an entire relay team if possible and no doubt other new citizens from eastern Europe will emerge in this or future generations.
To some extent new citizens are already influencing basketball, cricket, volleyball and fencing to name a few sports here.
Its a reality.
The EU has also brought up several examples of Irish persons marrying Belgians, Spanish, Italians etc so a picture of dual nationalities will also emerge. Again no problem to me. Those persons and their offspring are welcome additions.
Also for the diaspora. Irish persons going to USA England Australia etc are no longer "lost" to us as they were in previous generations. Again if their offspring are legally entitled to represent Ireland...GOOD LUCK TO THEM.

Clearly there have been cases where the "granny rules" have been stretched by Murphys Ryans and.....oh Cascarinos who discovered a hitherto unknown Irish granny on a little known branch of the family tree.
Clearly there are cases where people in USA, Australia and England have been brought up to enjoy a sense of Irishness and have gone on to represent us with distinction. I cant second guess on individual cases but so long as they are legally entitled....whether from the diaspora or the newest immigrant they have my backing...TOTALLY

MartinNutty

Hi Common Sense,

To clarify: I have an issue with people that crassley take on citizenship in a country to participate in a major sporting event - World Cup, Olympic Games etc.

I do live in the United States - happlily childless . But were I to spawn, my position would not change for my offspring - unless they intend to make their life in Ireland - I don't believe they should represent Ireland. As a general matter, that would severely reduce their likelihood of attending the Olympics for example.

That said its fairly pathetic watching people changing citizenship expressley for that purpose. The machinations made by the UK for Zola Budd in 1984 were particularly pathetic. Kipketeer on the other hand appears to have a strong relationship with Denmark, I believe he's married to a Dane and did not receive expedited citizenship to compete under Denmark's flag. He appears to be the correct model from my perspective.

Common Sense wrote:

I'm afraid I'm a bit of schizophrenic on this. I'd be totally opposed to what Qatar is doing. On the other hand I have no objection to someone like Alistair Cragg representing a country for which genealogically he is entitled to hold a passport. On this I disagree with Martin - all of the Irish players of that era could legitimately obtain Irish passports - whether they were needed for sport or any other reason. Indeed, Martin I'm of the opinion that you're living in the States (don't know why I think that); so would you like you're children or grandchildren (assuming you had such) should be deprived of running or jumping or throwing for Ireland if they so wished.?

Common Sense

Martin,

In what category would you put Cragg? He is talented enough to run for any country (with the exceptions of the Kenyans, Ethiopians, Morrocans etc.) so he didn't declare for Ireland out of a need to perform on the world stage. I don't know whether you get the Irish Runner in the US but there's a good article on Cragg in this month's issue in which he states he is extremely proud to run for Ireland as is his mother who travelled to Madrid to support him in the recent European Indoor Championships. On your general point I have to agree to differ with you. I believe that the Irish Diaspora are entitled to claim Irish citizenship (not just for sport) as many of them are the progeny of people who were forced to leave Ireland through no fault of their own to stave or hunger or even death from starvation. Most diaspora I've met or read about hold this strong for the homeland. (I assume you're in the States by choice rather than necessity). In Cragg's case not only did he not receive any inducements (as in the case of Kenyans changing their allegiance to compete for Qatar) but he has not even applied for a sports grant in this country. So his motives aren't need for competition or financial. Regards and all the best,

Common Sense

MartinNutty

I think we'll differ on this issue. My answer remains the same, unless Cragg intends to make his home in Ireland, I don't really consider him to be Irish. I think he's South African apparently treated shoddily by his national athletics association causing him to switch allegiance to Ireland. If I'm wrong on this assessment - then my apologies to Mr Cragg - a very impressive talent btw.

Common Sense wrote:

Martin,

In what category would you put Cragg? He is talented enough to run for any country (with the exceptions of the Kenyans, Ethiopians, Morrocans etc.) so he didn't declare for Ireland out of a need to perform on the world stage. I don't know whether you get the Irish Runner in the US but there's a good article on Cragg in this month's issue in which he states he is extremely proud to run for Ireland as is his mother who travelled to Madrid to support him in the recent European Indoor Championships. On your general point I have to agree to differ with you. I believe that the Irish Diaspora are entitled to claim Irish citizenship (not just for sport) as many of them are the progeny of people who were forced to leave Ireland through no fault of their own to stave or hunger or even death from starvation. Most diaspora I've met or read about hold this strong for the homeland. (I assume you're in the States by choice rather than necessity). In Cragg's case not only did he not receive any inducements (as in the case of Kenyans changing their allegiance to compete for Qatar) but he has not even applied for a sports grant in this country. So his motives aren't need for competition or financial. Regards and all the best,

Common Sense

Pherekydes

MartinNutty wrote:

I think he's South African apparently treated shoddily by his national athletics association causing him to switch allegiance to Ireland.

So he should just kiss his athletic career goodbye?

I bet you'd change your tune if all countries decided you had to earn your living in the country of your birth.

MartinNutty

Slow Coach,

You misunderstand me, I have no problem with people taking up citizenship in a country which differs from that of their birth. Indeed I've become a citizen of the USA. I make my life here and my primary allegiance is to the USA.

If you read my prior posts, nowhere do I suggest that an athlete is condemned to be a permanent citizen of the country of his/her birth. I've never suggested that because one is born in a country, that that person must remain a citizen of that nation. To reiterate, I have a problem with athletes declaring for a country where they have no intention of making a life in that nation. I have a problem with adopted citizenship expressly for the purpose of entree to Athletic events - Olympics etc.

My earlier comments are not Cragg specific, I don't know what Cragg's intentions are in terms of his relationship to Ireland. My comments are more general fueled by sceptism. In recent years we've seen Quatar recruit Kenyan athletes to their banner. Do these gentlemen intend to make their life in Quatar?? If so, again, I have no problem, but right now my right eyebrow is raised.

Martin

Slow coach wrote:

So he should just kiss his athletic career goodbye?

I bet you'd change your tune if all countries decided you had to earn your living in the country of your birth.

Squirrel

This is Cragg specific now, there is less chance of him making a life for himself in South Africa than Ireland, and he isn't eligible to run for the USA for another few years. What's to say that he won't make a life for himself in Ireland in the future

MartinNutty

Squirrel

I can speculate about Cragg's mindset in his relation to Ireland. However speculation suffers from a defecit of facts and is rarely productive. I don't know what Cragg's intent is in relation to Ireland. I'll simply state that if an athlete takes citizenship in a country merely for athletic convenience, I have a problem with that. Does this describe Cragg? You'll have to ask him because I don't know.

Martin

Squirrel

I agree with you on some points Martin, but he is eligible to run for Ireland so I have no problem with him representing Ireland. I agree with your points on people switching allegience for gain, but, unfortunately this can't be proved in most cases so I like to think they're doing it for the right reasons, a little naive I know but it has worked for me.

LegacyUser

You Europeans! Don't be hypocritical. Eusebio and other Africans were playing for Portugal in the 70's. Miss May is representing Italy when she was born in the West Indies. Ms. Otley is competing for Slovenia. There is a great deal of blacks in European football, olympic and other sports teams. Yet no one had raised a finger to protest the issue till Qatar came up with the best "formula" to acquire athletes from foreign countries. Why do some countries (Switzerland in particular) acquire a whole foreign team to compete for their water sports and glory?

Have you asked the African Athletes why they are forced to do this? There is a lot of unfairness, injustice, nepotism in the sports administration in some African countries. Stipends hard-earned by athletes have often disappeared through embezzlement by sports offials of the countries in question-the IAAF knows about this too well.

Padna

Martin, if you believe that athletes should live in the country for which they compete, especially if that country is not the country of their birth, would you then say that athletes from Northern Ireland who compete for (the Republic of) Ireland rather than GB & NI should move south?

leftism

regardless of the moralities behind changing nations, the OCI and National Federation (of whatever sport) have the final say on athletes racing for Ireland. The Olympic Council of Ireland recieve plenty of calls in the days and weeks after U.S olympic trials (for a number of sports), from athletes hoping to take advantage of the "granny-rule" and thus gain a ticket to the Games. Generally all of these cases are ignored because the athletes clearly have no genuine allegiences to the country (even IF their 2nd cousins brother twice removed is Irish).

Cragg is an exception to this and to the best of my knowledge, his case differed in that he chose to race for Ireland despite being good enough to race for S.A. Also he showed no interest in any monitary benefits and has shown genuine sincerity in wanting to race here....