[Article] Luas faces delay until 2005 - rail agency

Bee

Originally posted by Winters

The best transport option for Dublin [besides a fully intragated rail and bus network] is to fill the city with Trams.

Originally posted by Winters
. A full, on-street tram network is what is needed, not a hugh (sic) and costly underground metro.

I don't think so.

The Luas should never have been built, removing road space only leads to increased traffic congestion. The profit makers need the mobility of a car for business and to think otherwise is farcial. Anything that removes roadspace like the Luas is for cloud cuckoo land. Dublins economy has been damaged enough by inept planning,idiot road design by management at Dublin City council and total lack of vision by politicians.

Obviously we need to shift large amounts of people in the most efficient way possible. A metro is the best way of doing this. Just beacuse other cities have trams does not mean they are meeting the requirements of the populace or that they are enhancing the local economy.

A Metro can use numerous carriages as opposed to the single trams used by LUAS, it makes far greater use of rail in the city centre, and avoids the traffic congestion factor which frequent tram crossovers on city centre streets would cause. We also need a fast rail link from the Airport to the city centre (not necessarily a Metro). The ideal scenario would be to have both (similar to the Underground and the Heathrow Express ,which both serve Heathrow Airport)

Bee:)

maxheadroom

Originally posted by Bee
A metro is the best way of doing this. Just beacuse other cities have trams does not mean they are meeting the requirements of the populace or that they are enhancing the local economy.

I'd like to refute that with one word.


Gothenburg.


That is all.

Bee

Originally posted by maxheadroom
I'd like to refute that with one word.


Gothenburg.


That is all.

I would like to refute that with six words!

Dublin and Gothenburg? Chalk and Cheese!!!:D

Bee

sceptre

I hope you do realise that you haven't refuted anything, Bee.

You said something along the lines of "just because other cities have trams doesn't mean they're any good in those cities"

maxheadroom said that in Gothenberg they rather do

You said that Dublin was not Gothenberg (which in fairness won't come as news to the residents of either city). Which hadn't much to do with whatever point you were trying to make.

Aaargh

Victor

Originally posted by Bee
The Luas should never have been built, removing road space only leads to increased traffic congestion.

From Sandyford to the Canal, laus doesn't use any roadspace other than the level crossing at Beechwood Avenue (which has been single lane traffic all along anyway).

Originally posted by Bee
The profit makers need the mobility of a car for business and to think otherwise is farcial.

If you mean have cars for the bosses, then I just about agree with you, but cars for everyone doesn't work.

Originally posted by Bee
Dublins economy has been damaged enough by inept planning,idiot road design by management at Dublin City council and total lack of vision by politicians.

Actaully the mess Dublin is in can be put back to:

(a) corrupt local government in the 18th and 19th century (which stripped the city of rates by moving the rich to the suburban "townships", mostly laid out on traditional country lanes)

(b) the Fianna Fáil inspired houses for everyone "garden city" ideas of the 1930 (not bad, but misguided).

(c) general mismanagement at a national level since the 1977 census which indicated strong population growth, but falling family sizes ... which mean huge numbers of houses would be needed in the -1995-2010 period.

Originally posted by Bee
Obviously we need to shift large amounts of people in the most efficient way possible.

Only where there is adeequate population. Most parts of Dublin do'nt warrant a metro.

Originally posted by Bee
Just beacuse other cities have trams does not mean they are meeting the requirements of the populace or that they are enhancing the local economy.

Then they would be moving away from trams wouldn't they? The general trend in developed countries is towards more public transport, not less.

Originally posted by Bee
A Metro can use numerous carriages as opposed to the single trams used by LUAS,

Luas can use multiple cars.

Originally posted by Bee
and avoids the traffic congestion factor which frequent tram crossovers on city centre streets would cause.

You mean the way a tram carrying say 100 people would inconvenience 20 motorists?

Originally posted by Bee
We also need a fast rail link from the Airport to the city centre (not necessarily a Metro). The ideal scenario would be to have both (similar to the Underground and the Heathrow Express ,which both serve Heathrow Airport)

This need not necessarily compete on infrastructure. "Third track" (or fourth) could mean express or semi-express services could be provided.

Bee

Thank you Vic for the thoughtful replies

If I may add...

From Sandyford to the Canal, luas doesn't use any roadspace other than the level crossing at Beechwood Avenue (which has been single lane traffic all along anyway).

I obviously meant wherever there is already existing traffic congestion e.g. all of the city between the canals. You don't resolve congestion by removing lanes, the Luas will be full from day one resulting in continued necessary car use. Not all commuters can use/will use public transport due to multiple reasons never mind the lazy sods who will always insist on their car.

If you mean have cars for the bosses, then I just about agree with you, but cars for everyone doesn't work.

Please remember that the majority of the proletariat that generate profit if they use their car is because they have too, being stuck in congestion is for most people not out of choice. Some believe the myth that Luas et al will shift commuters out of their car, to nail that myth on the head we need a serious survey of car users entering Dublin city as to why they are in their car rather than on public transport

Actaully the mess Dublin is in can be put back to: etc

Inept traffic planning by DCC's Traffic Dept as well as an exceptionally poor traffic light system has compounded matters no end!

Only where there is adeequate population. Most parts of Dublin do'nt warrant a metro.

Oh Dear, perhaps you havn't commuted on overcrowded Dart's and urban rail akin to the worst excesses in India never mind risking life on overcrowded platforms. Unbeliveably Luaswill bypass Crumlin and Kimmage! (much to Dublin Buses overcrowded stagecoaches relief) I would argue that numerous Dublin urban areas seriously need a Metro due to the volume that can be carried at any one time

Luas can use multiple cars.

And create further traffic havoc with increased congestion catering for the low capacity cars with traffic lights switching more frequently as against the increased speed and greater passeneger load of an underground Metro

You mean the way a tram carrying say 100 people would inconvenience 20 motorists?

Think of the knock on effect of traffic congestion, think of the slow down of the emergency services:rolleyes: if you look at Dublin Bus QBC's for the majority of the time outside of the rush hour the buses are nearly empty, expect the same for the Luas.

This need not necessarily compete on infrastructure. "Third track" (or fourth) could mean express or semi-express services could be provided

Aggreed but why not a fully integrated Metro as part of the Metro to the Airport and at the very least Dublin port?

Bee

Victor

Interesting O'Rourke (minister 5 years) says Brennan (minister 1 year). Me thinks O'Rourke has an agenda.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/1582280?view=Eircomnet

O'Rourke says Brennan should explain Luas debacle
From:ireland.com
Monday, 29th September, 2003

The Green Party seized on the in-party spat with transport spokesman, Mr Eamon Ryan blaming both Mr Brennan and Mrs O'Rourke for dithering over the project.

The Evening Herald today reported Mrs O'Rourke denying any responsibility for what Mr Brennan recently admitted was a "mess". The paper quotes her saying he should "shape up and stop moaning" about the much-criticised project.

She said costing on the project which could be nearly three times the original estimate was done by her predecessor former Fine Gael TD, Mr Michael Lowry.

Mr Brennan, implicitly criticising Mrs O'Rourke, recently said costing on the project appeared to have been done on the back of an envelope. He also said ideally the whole project should be abandoned and an underground put in its place.

"I was presented with a report on the Luas a month before I left office which stated that everything on-time and on-budget so I really don't know where it all went wrong," Mrs O'Rourke, who is now leader of the Seanad said.

"I would like the Minister to make a statement on exactly how it has all gone wrong", the former minister added.

But Mr Ryan insisted the former deputy leader of Fianna Fáil must also take responsibility:

"The truth is that both the present and the former Minister are fully responsible for the mess that our public transport infrastructure is in ... Both parties involved in this row are past masters at indecision and confusion when it comes to investing in our public transport infrastructure."

He called on Mrs O'Rourke to publish the report indicating the project on- time and on-budget.

And he said Minister Brennan should "concentrate on ways of solving the problems currently facing the Luas project rather that looking for a political scapegoat".

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.luas.ie/plan/background.asp

The Dublin Transportation Initiative (DTI) report of April 1994 included a wide-ranging set of recommendations aimed at realising clearly identified transportation, land use and environmental objectives for the Greater Dublin Area.

The report recommended the establishment of a three line light rail transit (LRT) system linking Tallaght, Ballymun and Cabinteely to the City Centre. The establishment cost was estimated at £300m.

Capt'n Midnight

The profit makers need the mobility of a car for business and to think otherwise is farcial.
Well they are the only ones who can afford TAXI's every day...

Victor

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
The Dublin Transportation Initiative (DTI) report of April 1994 included ....... The establishment cost was estimated at £300m.

And in 1994 a Yorkie bar cost 30p, I just forked out 75c on one.

The profit makers need the mobility of a car for business and to think otherwise is farcial.

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Well they are the only ones who can afford TAXI's every day...

I was actually thinking about this and all to often the bike courier and / or the "white van" driver (well their delivery anyway) is as important as that big shiny (metallic silver!) Merc with the senior executive in it.

West Briton

You can whistle for a metro lads. McCreevy isn't going to wear it. We're back to the public transport is for losers mentality.

Ring Charlie up and ask him for a lift to the Airport.