Isn't it time we got rid of the Angelus?

Third_Echelon

nothing wrong with showing the angelus on tv... simple... if you dont want to watch it, turn over to another channel, and turn back if you want to watch the news...

its not really that hard to do....

Sparks

3rd, that's not the point.
Do you see bhuddist or shinto or hindu or even just Protestant ceremonies on RTE every day at no cost to anyone but the taxpayer?

Third_Echelon

the other religions that are coming into this country is good in my opinion, but there is no disputing the fact that ireland is a christian, and mainly roman catholic country...

our new members of society will have to realise this and respect ireland for what it is... its traditions and beliefs and ways of life etc... this is what they sign up for when they come here... to become an irish citizen and to adapt to irish ways of life, but also keeping their own traditions and beliefs too..... as you should never forget where you come from...

in fairness to rte, when they 'jazzed' up the angelus a few years ago, there was a whole lot of fuss about the new style but they focused less on the whole roman catholic aspect of it and turned it into a more of a reflection type sequence of pictures, so not only catholics could 'enjoy' it...

its just a whole load of fuss over nothing in my opinion... storm in a teacup type of thing really

Sparks

but there is no disputing the fact that ireland is a christian, and mainly roman catholic country...

I'm rather sure that the fact that you're wrong about that is why we have the Republic and Northern Ireland...

our new members of society will have to realise this and respect ireland for what it is

Well, I'm an old member of society. And my family (both the small clan on my father's side and the large one on my mother's) have been Irish back to the dark mists of the pre-famine times.
And I don't like the angelus.
So why should a new member of society have to shut up about it?

in fairness to rte, when they 'jazzed' up the angelus a few years ago, there was a whole lot of fuss about the new style but they focused less on the whole roman catholic aspect of it and turned it into a more of a reflection type sequence of pictures, so not only catholics could 'enjoy' it...

And the buddhist death rituals have made it to prime-time TV as well, but that doesn't stop them being buddhist.

its just a whole load of fuss over nothing in my opinion... storm in a teacup type of thing really

It's the principle of the thing 3rd.
And given who's involved, the principle is rather important.

Third_Echelon

And I don't like the angelus.
So why should a new member of society have to shut up about it?

Again, this is your personal opinion.... just because you dont like it doesnt mean that a new member of society doesnt like it..... i haven't heard a refugee or imigrant complaining about the angelus yet.. have you???

And the buddhist death rituals have made it to prime-time TV as well, but that doesn't stop them being buddhist

WTF???

And given who's involved, the principle is rather important.

Again, WTF????

Sparks

Again, this is your personal opinion.... just because you dont like it doesnt mean that a new member of society doesnt like it..... i haven't heard a refugee or imigrant complaining about the angelus yet.. have you???

Nope, but you're the one that brought it up.
The people I've head of that are specifically complaining are Irish:
http://www.irish-humanists.org/HotIssuesSub/bsdcab.html

WTF???

Dress it up all you like, a RC ceremony is a RC ceremony. Which means (and this is the point), that the state is supporting the RC church using taxpayers money from non-RC taxpayers. And last time I checked, disestablishmentarianism was found to be a good idea a few hundred years ago.

dathi1

In a way I hope they do ban it....it will focus peoples attention to the new-speak and thought criminal mindset amongst the neo liberal political elite.
Second phase will be...The tolling of bells (probably going on here since 6 AD) should be banned because its an affront to our new found multicultural dictat...and when the first imam makes the call to prayer from Clonskeagh 5 times a day?..Nada.
Any culture....any culture ...once its not Irish.

Originally posted by Sparks

Dress it up all you like, a RC ceremony is a RC ceremony. Which means (and this is the point), that the state is supporting the RC church using taxpayers money from non-RC taxpayers.

Well if you want to be that particular about it, you should withdraw the percentage of state funding that goes to protestant nationalist schools which is contributed by catholic tax payers.
Ie according to their religions as stated on the 2002 census results, we will withdraw 90% of the funding from non Catholic schools shall we???

Now I'm sure you wouldn't agree with that, so maybe we shouldn't give out too much about the miniscule percentage of the licence payers money spent on the 59 second angelus.

There is a remote control as someone else pointed out and other religions do get an airing commensurate with their size.
I and others use that remote control a lot to switch off programmes I don't like, on which a considerable proportion of the licence is spent.
Other licence payers will continue watching though.

mm

Sparks

Well if you want to be that particular about it, you should withdraw the percentage of state funding that goes to protestant nationalist schools which is contributed by catholic tax payers.

Actually, if protestant schools were receiving a disproportionate amount of funding, there'd be outcry for exactly that.
The point being that money to protestant schools is coming from the education budget. Everyone pays fairly, every school gets treated fairly - at least in theory. Whereas with the angelus, everyone pays and one group is treated preferentially.

Second phase will be...The tolling of bells (probably going on here since 6 AD) should be banned because its an affront to our new found multicultural dictat

If you'd read the actual complaint, the tolling of bells in churches was not at issue, but the tolling of bells in Dublin Castle - and there the request was for them to toll the hour instead of the angelus. As to the RTE angelus - well, if you want it so bad, let the RC church pay for it. And allow any and all other religious groups to bid for the same timeslot under the same conditions.
Of course, then you have to rescind the ban on religious advertising, but since we've already taken the Irish solution on that one via the broadcasting of the angelus and the whole "prayer at bedtime" malarky, that shouldn't be too big a step.

Originally posted by Sparks

The point being that money to protestant schools is coming from the education budget. Everyone pays fairly, every school gets treated fairly - at least in theory. Whereas with the angelus, everyone pays and one group is treated preferentially.

But my point was that you are saying that non catholic licence payers are paying for the Angelus.
Are you implying that they shouldn't because then:
Thats the same as Catholic tax payers (who when applying the census are around 90% of taxpayers) paying for 90% of the funding of schools in the protestant ethos or any other ethos.
If you want to withdraw funding from the Angelus, ie get rid of it, for the reason you state, then the same should be applied to the "catholic" proportion of taxes going to non Catholic schools.

Regarding the last principal you mention, ie everyone pays and one group is treated preferentially.
That doesn't wash with regard to RTE as it is a Public Service Broadcaster and thats the principal behind a licence fee.
Like it or not there is still a considerable demand for the "public service" that the Angelus is, and that demand is considerably greater than the demand for other public services programmes on RTE such as the weekly protestant Church services.
It wouldn't be nice to see the latter go either.

mm

Sparks

Originally posted by Man
But my point was that you are saying that non catholic licence payers are paying for the Angelus.
Are you implying that they shouldn't because then:
Thats the same as Catholic tax payers (who when applying the census are around 90% of taxpayers) paying for 90% of the funding of schools in the protestant ethos or any other ethos.
If you want to withdraw funding from the Angelus, ie get rid of it, for the reason you state, then the same should be applied to the "catholic" proportion of taxes going to non Catholic schools.

That doesn't follow Man. Catholic and Protestant schools differ primarily in the teaching of religious beliefs but those RI classes are a small and voluntary part of the national curriculum. Ie. protestant schools exist primarily to teach kids and are regulated in what they must teach by the state, and as such deserve to be funded by everyone. As would jewish, hindu, buddhist or atheist schools. The angelus exists wholly as a RC religious celebration/ceremony/whatever. It serves no other purpose. As such, let the RC church pay for it. It's not like they don't have the cash...

Regarding the last principal you mention, ie everyone pays and one group is treated preferentially.
That doesn't wash with regard to RTE as it is a Public Service Broadcaster and thats the principal behind a licence fee.
Like it or not there is still a considerable demand for the "public service" that the Angelus is, and that demand is considerably greater than the demand for other public services programmes on RTE such as the weekly protestant Church services.
It wouldn't be nice to see the latter go either.
mm

There may be a public demand for it - but that's not a valid argument. Carry out a survey and you can find public demand for showing hard-core donkey porn on RTE. That doesn't mean you're going to have to check the RTE guide more carefully in the future Besides, the source for the funding is incorrect. How much is the minute at 1800 just before the news worth to advertisers? Because that's how much the angelus costs us. If there's that much demand for it, rescind the ban on religious advertising (which is, after all, the function served by playing the angelus on RTE) and let the RC church pay for it.
If you want a "reflective moment", fine. That's what the national anthem sequence at the end of the evening's programming used to do as well - so bring it back at 1800. Or just replace the angelus bells with an hourly chime style of bells.

dathi1

Yeah, but the RC church doesn't pay for it.

Why should the RC church pay for a Christian Irish Custom on RTE?

Sparks

Originally posted by dathi1
Why should the RC church pay for a Christian Irish Custom on RTE?

Because it's not a Christian Irish Custom, it's a RC custom. The angelus, recall, is a devotion to Mary, not Christ, and the other christian churches don't give her the same prominence that the RC church does.

Besides which, have you ever seen the Angelus on RTE being rung from a Protestant, Presbyterian, or other Christian cathedral?

dathi1

Because it's not a Christian Irish Custom, it's a RC custom. The angelus, recall, is a devotion to Mary, not Christ, and the other christian churches don't give her the same prominence that the RC church does.

Ok but since most people have forgotten all that stuff and the specifics of who said what to who and what saint is he or she.. then it doesn't matter any more does it? I like the idea of it being there...not from a religious point of view as I'm in a Celtic Pagan sex sect ..but for the majority of people out there who consider themselves Christian and its an old Irish custom since the inception of the national broadcaster.

Besides which, have you ever seen the Angelus on RTE being rung from a Protestant, Presbyterian, or other Christian cathedral?

I cant see anybody ringing anything...but next time I'll keep my eyes peeled....how will I know if they're Prodies or Presies?

Victor

Each religion is provided some time on RTE, I imagine over a year it all balances out.

Originally posted by dathi1
and when the first imam makes the call to prayer from Clonskeagh 5 times a day?..Nada.

Aren't there planning restrictions on this?

Originally posted by Sparks
That doesn't follow Man. Catholic and Protestant schools differ primarily in the teaching of religious beliefs but those RI classes are a small and voluntary part of the national curriculum. Ie. protestant schools exist primarily to teach kids and are regulated in what they must teach by the state, and as such deserve to be funded by everyone.

Protestant or other ethos schools exist as seperate entities and as you are no doubt aware are popular amongst parents who wish to avoid catholic schools.
Why is this, exactly?
It's not soley on account of the fact that they have a voluntary small protestant religious class.
All of the teachers in my local protestant national and secondary school afaik are protestant.
Their teachers wages are 90% funded by Catholic tax payers.
If we were to apply your reasoning regarding the Angelus strictly to the teaching of non Catholic Kids, then all schools should be amalgamated with religious teaching done separately at each site to the different groups.
I doubt if that would go down well at a board meeting of the committee of my local Protestant school.

Regarding the value of the advertising at six o clock, isn't there advertising immediately preceding the Angelus.
And I doubt the radio advertising at noon on radio one is a goldmine.

There may be a public demand for it - but that's not a valid argument. Carry out a survey and you can find public demand for showing hard-core donkey porn on RTE. That doesn't mean you're going to have to check the RTE guide more carefully in the future

Methinks , when one starts bringing the demand for donkey porn into a discussion on religious broadcasting, ones argument is starting to fade.
Especially considering We know which of the two genre's would get past the Broadcasting complaints commission.

mm