First post!

Mark

w0ot! First postage at last! And it only took 2 years!

GG on the new forum, shags to Victor for suggesting it.

ALL THE BEHST!

Runfree

AWWW I want first post!!

Paddy20

This is my [first post] on this new forum. It will probably appear as the 3rd post. Third time lucky, Eh. However, I intend too be the first to ask a relevent question.

What do people consider would amount to a fair weekly Disability Allowance for people with no other source of income?..

Good luck.









p.;)

Victor

Originally posted by Mark
GG on the new forum, shags to Victor for suggesting it.

Sorry Mark, I don't think you are my type

richindub2

Originally posted by Paddy20

What do people consider would amount to a fair weekly Disability Allowance for people with no other source of income?..

I know this is going to sound horribly right wing, however...

I dont believe there should be any disability allowance / pension in any shape or form, if people arent able to look after themselves they shouldnt be supported by the state. Natural selection exists for a reason - if people arent able to support themselves whats to say their offspring will be any more inclined to do so?

Victor

Originally posted by richindub2
Natural selection exists for a reason - if people arent able to support themselves whats to say their offspring will be any more inclined to do so?

Hey, we could also get someone in wheelchair to AK-47 you.... natural selection would be in action as you have no defence for AK-47 bullets.

vac

It wouldn't be natural selection if it was OUR tax money that payed for his ak47..

DeVore

Because care for the sick, elderly, temporaraily incapacitated members of our community is what separates us from animals. In fact even animals have been known to tend/care for old or sick members.

Natural selection is a force of nature, we dont have to be ruled by it though, for better or for worse it has had little impact on humans in recent history.

DeV.

seamus

/me pets the little rich troll

if people arent able to support themselves whats to say their offspring will be any more inclined to do so?

If people are able to support themselves whats to say their offspring will be inclined to do so?

Disabled people can give birth to non-disabled offspring and vice-versa.

Take Christopher Reeve. Should he just be thrown on the sidewalk, and claim that a horsing accident was 'natural selection'?

Natural selection acts on individuals, but has a global effect. Disabilites have little or nothng to with that.

Redshift

Originally posted by Paddy20

What do people consider would amount to a fair weekly Disability Allowance for people with no other source of income?..

I think it would depend on the circumstances, some disabled people require alot more care and assistance than others. I don't know much about the current arrangements as I am fortunate not to require such help. Overall I think disabled people deserve the same quality of life as the rest of us and so any allowances payed should be sufficient to ensure that it happens.

Ryan

Crash

As a state we should give everyone regardless of disabilities an equal chance in life. if that means giving a blind person a pc with speech software, a brailler and the training of a guide dog that should be state funded. if it means building a ramp into a public building for a wheelchair user, then it should be done. basically i believe that the weekly allowance should be sufficient to allow a person who is disabled or does not have the same faculties that a fully mobile person does to lead the same life as said person. Equal Opportunities. and Rich i wonder have you ever had a friend or family member with any form of disability. if you have someone who you cared about who was disabled, i really think you'd see it a very different way.

Victor

Originally posted by crash_000
if it means building a ramp into a public building for a wheelchair user, then it should be done.

Personally, I don't see why ramps should have to be built in new buildings - why can't architects get over the concept of being "above" everyone else and build entrances at ground level.

Crash

I agree with you there Victor, i meant into current buildings. new legislation is coming in that will, from what i heard of it, require all buildings built within the next year onwards to be wheelchair accessible, including private housing. And if i get what i want i get to be one of those architects who has to get over the idea

Paddy20

Re: Disability Allowance payments to the disabled?..

Redshift,

A disabled person aged under 80 living alone in rented accommodation. Is currently entitled to a basic weekly allowance of €118.80c.

I would like to know if people think this is sufficient to meet their basic living needs?...

P.

richindub2

Originally posted by DeVore
Because care for the sick, elderly, temporaraily incapacitated members of our community is what separates us from animals. In fact even animals have been known to tend/care for old or sick members.

If you want to care for people who dont contribute to society with your own money fine, give to charity or whatever. I dont see why my tax money should be used to fund these layabouts and why I should pay more for my next house because its been built with a tiny percentage of the population in mind.

If people are able to support themselves whats to say their offspring will be inclined to do so?

If a child growing up sees his mother and father working and it is expected of him to do the same its a lot more likely he'll get a job than say a child of two parents on the dole who regard a job as 'unnesessary'.

As a state we should give everyone regardless of disabilities an equal chance in life.

Nobody has equal chances from birth. If your parents are wealthy you go to a nice private school, if theyre poor you have to drop out to feed the family. If everyone was to have a truely equal chance in life we'd have to implement some sort of extreme communism.

and Rich i wonder have you ever had a friend or family member with any form of disability. if you have someone who you cared about who was disabled, i really think you'd see it a very different way

I cant see with my left eye. My mother cant see with her right eye. Neither of us is about to go claiming disability pay from the state because we cant be fighter pilots and have to pay extra insurance on our cars. Its called a work ethic.

Paddy20

richindub2,

Are you playing "Devils Advocate", or are you just plain evil?...

P.

K2

RICHINDUB2 - WHY DON'T YOU KEEP YOUR FACIST THOUGHTS TO YOURSELF, THAT WAY NOBODY WILL MISTAKE YOU FOR A NAZI.

Should this part of the boards not be kept for meaningful comments? What the hell are the moderators thinking of allowing assho7es like richindub2 post such comments.

richindub2

Hey who needs a well thought out argument when you can just label everyone who has a conservative viewpoint a nazi eh! God forbid thinking that people actually need to work for their income becomes a common thing, how would this country surivive :rolleyes:

From paddy20s post on a 'suitable allowance amount' should really be split from this thread actually, it might stimulate more meaningful debate on the subject and let this thread go back ontopic.

Paddy20

richindub2,

I agree with you that the subject of how much the genuinely disabled weekly living allowance amount topic could make an interesting thread in its own right.

P.

K2

Tell me richinbeinganassholedub2, how is somebody going to support themselves if they are incapable of working for a living?
What would be your answer to this question that many face? Should we simply put them out of their misery and kill them? The level of your compassion is outstanding, you can make all the eloquent verbal arguements you like, people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mussolini were also quite good at that but the substance of your verbal diarrhoea is just that, pure ****e. People with disabilities and their families have a lot to deal with, including assholes with worthless opinions, adding a financial burden is not what a caring society is about. If you don't like living in a society which goes about caring for the sick, old, disabled and healthy citizens then feck off to Iraq, I believe they are looking for a new president, judging from the last one you would probably fit his shoes nicely.

daveg

Originally posted by richindub2
I know this is going to sound horribly right wing, however...

I dont believe there should be any disability allowance / pension in any shape or form, if people arent able to look after themselves they shouldnt be supported by the state. Natural selection exists for a reason - if people arent able to support themselves whats to say their offspring will be any more inclined to do so?

WTF ? I hope to fúck riche that was a joke. I cannot believe someone would actually feel that way so it must be a joke.

My dad is wheelchair bound. Has been for the last 26 years or so. Without the disability allowance we would have gone under a long time ago. Do you have any idea how fúcking difficult it is for a disabled person to find work? That has to be the most fúcking ignorant thing I have ever read on boards... worse than some of the Stormfront shíte.

how the fúck would you feel if you had a wife and child and you were involved in an accident leaving you paralised? How would you propse to support your family.

I'm gonna leave it at that before I really express my views on your ignorant post before I get handed a banning.

patch

Rich, seriously, It seems that because your pissed off you can't see out of one of your eyes, your likening yourself to someone who is genuinely incapacitated.

You don't compare. Your problems mean **** all in comparison.
I suggest you get the twig out of your ass, the chip off your shoulder and wake up to the facts.

richindub2

Originally posted by Dawntreader
Rich,
Firstly, how many people on this planet do you think have disabilities? The answer IMO is every last one.

Yes, and somehow most of them bring themselves to work. Im not arguing for the liquidation of anyone with a slight disability, Im arguing for the taking away of a costly and unbenefical security net that will damage a small minority's lives.

Also, you should be aware, that these days, the majority of people with disabilities (the prefered term BTW), DO work, very damned hard and they get either no disability allowance or an adjusted amount of it as a supplement.

Great! I have no issues with disabled people in general, I have an issue with those of them who get an allowance from the government for doing nothing. If someone in a wheel chair is supporting themselves 100% I have no problems whatsoever with them.

I have made a difference in the lives and quality of lives for many people

And what if the amount of social allowance you claimed might have stopped x amount of people from dieing in road accidents on bad roads, would they not have made a difference to society too?

The thing is Rich, look at yourself, your own disability, if you lost the sight in your other eye, how would you work? Wouldnt you need your employer to adapt to your disability? I can tell you right here and now, that were it not for the fact that we have a welfare system that provides grants to employers to adapt their premises and equipment, most would not.

If I became blind I would either live off of savings earned as a working citizen, find some sort of job to support myself or die. I would not expect an employer to keep a more productive, nondisabled member of society out of a job in perference to me or the state to keep me alive if all I was doing was sitting somewhere all day every day feeling sorry for myself.

Were it not for equality legislation that we fought long and hard for, companies would probably never even employ you in the first place

I dont see why a company should HAVE to employ a quota of less productive employees simply to be PC. If Im being employed I want to be employed based on my capability to do the job, not to fill some government statistic.

Yes there are people who will use it for their entire lives, if they for instance had never had access to sufficient education to know that they are able to work, but who's fault is that? Theirs? Or a government and a society that stuck them in residential homes, mainly run by religious organisations I might add, where they were made to believe they had no value and could *never be* a productive part of society.

If these people had been presented with a 'work or starve' situation they would have learnt how to make a contribution to society fairly quickly.

We pay taxes too btw, but we understand as you obviously do not, that without diversity in society, there is no chance of the human race ever being somthing inspired enough to want or need progress.

Those of 'you'(Id prefer not to turn this into an us or them discussion, howandever..) who work and support themselves Ive already stated I have no problem with. Im also pretty sure not many seriously disabled people lived long in say any time before 1700, this didnt stop the advancement of the human race then nor will it now.

Tell me richinbeinganassholedub2, how is somebody going to support themselves if they are incapable of working for a living?

I dont care. If they want to support themselves they can find some way or they can die, as long as it doesnt fall upon ME to support them its of no interest to me.

People with disabilities and their families have a lot to deal with, including assholes with worthless opinions, adding a financial burden is not what a caring society is about. If you don't like living in a society which goes about caring for the sick, old, disabled and healthy citizens then feck off to Iraq

If people arent able to support their children without government assistance they shouldnt have children, full stop. I have no issues with a caring society, I have issues with a society that throws its money at worthless causes.

daveg post

daveg this isnt a joke, its a rather practical view of our welfare state that I have. Im sorry about your father being disabled but maybe if he'd planned for a rainy day at some point in his life and had had savings you wouldnt have needed to go cap in hand to the government.

Rich, seriously, It seems that because your pissed off you can't see out of one of your eyes, your likening yourself to someone who is genuinely incapacitated.

You don't compare. Your problems mean **** all in comparison.
I suggest you get the twig out of your ass, the chip off your shoulder and wake up to the facts

I dislike having one proper eye, yes. It does not however define my life and I dont spend all my time feeling sorry for myself because of it. Im also not saying it is as serious as being blind in both eyes etc, I was just pointing it out when asked if anyone I knew had a disability. The facts are what Im trying to get you to become aware of, if you could see past your sentimental 'oh but theyre human beings' bias maybe youd realise how the money spent on such things could be better spent elsewhere.

patch

Actually, that post of mine had rather a nasty streak in it. I didn't intend to make light of your own problems, -sorry.

You mentioned that your Mother has a similar problem. Without wishing to cause offence, do you think perhaps that growing up it was drummed into you that you were bigger than any problems you might encounter?
In a way, that seems to have been a great way for you to overcome any problems, but has left you with difficulties in relating to other peoples issues.

I've seen many of your posts, and I know you're most likely not trying to piss anybody off. But seriously, when daveg sees your reply suggesting that his Dad might have had the foresight to stash a nestegg, on the off chance that his back gets broken, He'll be none too pleased I suspect.

Compassion. You don't have to agree with how people use the system, but there's no need to kick them while their down!

richindub2

Originally posted by patch69

You mentioned that your Mother has a similar problem. Without wishing to cause offence, do you think perhaps that growing up it was drummed into you that you were bigger than any problems you might encounter?
In a way, that seems to have been a great way for you to overcome any problems, but has left you with difficulties in relating to other peoples issues.

Possibly yes, but surely the solution to this would be simply to drum it into others that most disabilities can be overcome with sufficient effort? Partly the educational systems fault maybe, but even so 'better parenting' shouldnt be used as a lifelong excuse.

The problem with this thinking rich is that it is NOT an unbeneficial security net,

How does having 10,000 extra permanently nonworking disabled people in Ireland benefit me or others like me realistically(please dont stoop to 'oh if they were your family members youd care', a very very small minority of the population are related to me)? I sure cant think of any, hence the unbeneficial for society.

Also Rich, The D.A. has NO impact on how much the government will spend on roads etc

Sorry, youre saying if the government was to spend say €10m less a year on D.A. it would make no difference in other areas? That is rather hard to believe. I find it highly questionable that you believe the funds will simply disapear and not be used for some other, worthier cause.

Rich, I for one find this highly insulting. Where is your proof to suggest that a nondisabled person would be the better employee?

In certain cases there is no getting over the fact that a nondisabled person would be a better employee. How does having to build a new elevator and new steps for every entrance to a building to pass new regulations benefit the employer? How effective exactly would a paramedic in a wheel chair be? Im not claiming this to be the case in all jobs, just a selection of them.

As somone with a degree in Psychology and Behavioural Sci. Rich, I would suggest that if the value you place on your own life is such, you might consider seeking professional help rather quickly.

I value my own life quite highly thankyouverymuch, I just dont believe I would ever stoop to the level of asking for tax paying people to paying for my needs while doing nothing about them myself. Is self respect that hard a concept for you to understand? Just because you took government handouts doesnt mean everyone else would drop to that level.

C'mon Rich, even you cannot truly believe this. And if you do, god you have led a sheltered life.

I believe very wholeheartedly in this. If someone is presented with that situation I guarantee a large amount of people now 'unfit' for work and on welfare will suddenly become rather less snobby when it comes to jobs.

Rich, it does seem to me, and many others I would guess, that you may have a serious problem, not with others, but with yourself. You seem to need to see yourself as somhow above others, or wishing you had more influence than you do over others.
Your lack of self assurance or self confidence may be *your* biggest disability my friend.

I have no problem with myself, Im not claiming disability off of the goverment while doing nothing. Once again, if you got over your 'ohmygod I have friends who cant work theyll die!' response youd see I am not discriminating irrationally, I am only advocating the termination of support for those who dont seem likely to contribute an overall positive economic balance to the goverment by their time of death. It seems to me that you cannot get over the fact that society may one day realise that it has to cut its strings and leave the uncontributing members to themselves, even if this led to some collateral damage. I see anyone who pays taxes as above those who leech off of the state yes, it isnt limited to myself.

Also, anyone who has ever met or known me will assure you Im not quite lacking on self assurance or self confidence

K2

RICHINDUB2 - I apologise for calling you a nazi. As a parent of a disabiled child I tend to see red when I hear or read comments such as yours, but that is no excuse for comparing you to such an evil organisation. However, I do believe you have some serious problems and you should seek counciling. I'm not trying to be a smartass, some of the things you are writing here are outrageous and I will not comment on them any further. Please talk to somebody, you may end up feeling better not only about yourself but about those around you irrespective of their abilities, wealth or status in society.

Amz

Could someone please seperate this section of posts from the original thread.

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by K2
RICHINDUB2 - WHY DON'T YOU KEEP YOUR FACIST THOUGHTS TO YOURSELF, THAT WAY NOBODY WILL MISTAKE YOU FOR A NAZI.

Godwins Law enacted. Split the thread or lock it.

Paddy20

Re: richindub2,

Some posters are calling for the above to be banned or this thread be locked, because of his comments on this thread.

However, as this forum is as far as I am aware. Without any Moderator/s who is in a position to implement a banning or locking of a thread.

In any case. Judging by richindub2s posts I think he is clearly disabled emotionally, and perhaps posting here is his own personally chosen type of therapy. Who amongst us really knows how much emotional pain or crippling psychological problems this person is trying to resolve. If being able to post here is therapuetic for his disabilities*!. Then lets hope this forum helps him.

Maybe, posting here is helping him to purge the devils that may be driving him crazy, if that is the case , then this forum is working.

Thats just my 2cs worth.

P.

phreak

Originally posted by Paddy20
Some posters are calling for the above to be banned or this thread be locked, because of his comments on this thread.

i don't agree with rich's views but he is entitled to his opinions and shouldn't be banned for expressing them.

daveg

Originally posted by richindub2
daveg this isnt a joke, its a rather practical view of our welfare state that I have. Im sorry about your father being disabled but maybe if he'd planned for a rainy day at some point in his life and had had savings you wouldnt have needed to go cap in hand to the government.

Your ignorance is astounding. I'm not going to exercise your demons and give you therapy for whatever has happened in your past to think like this. You really are mentally disabled.

I don't agree with Rich’s views but he is entitled to his opinions and shouldn't be banned for expressing them.

I agree... He doesn't deserve to be banned. However I get the distinct impression Rich that you are a leaving cert student. Is this the case? If so you have no right to your opinion because you don't pay PRSI or PAYE. You might enlighten us on this fact?