Traffic calming good or bad?

Bee

Dangerously designed traffic calming road ramps and road extensions are spreading like a virus across Dublin.

These expensive and porr designs are dangerous to all road users due to the vertical impact, try alighting from a bus if you are old, infirm, handicapped as the bus thumps over the ramps.

anyone suffering from a back injury is in danger.

Cars/Truck/motorbikes accelerate and brake hard between ramps increasing noise and pollution and wasting fuel.

What do you think?

.

dmeehan

bad

i think making "short cuts" longer would be more appropriate
ie. closing access to direct routes and forcing motorists to take a longer route but this is nt always feasable either

Victor

Actually it is invariably good. Different design standards are used for bus and non-bus routes. I have a report that I will try to post up later.

These measures have contributed to road deaths in Dublin (city council are) dropping from 53 in 19978 to 14 in 2001.

Typically they are only implemented where the majority of traffic is exceeding the speed limit.

They also have the overwhelming support of residents.

Borzoi

Originally posted by Victor


They also have the overwhelming support of residents.

Not always, St Ignatius Road off Dorset St. It was a regular motorist rat run untill the Corpo put in ramps, however they were the ramps from hell, no reflective surface steep sided, like a brick, yeah, more small kurb up than ramp.

After much protestation, the ramps were all dug up and replaced with kinder gentler models two weeks before an election.

While I do think that ramps are a good idea in areas with a lot of children etc, there is an enourmous difference in the quality of the ramps used especially, why is that?

Imposter

People wouldn't try and take short cuts if traffic management worked properly. I do think that taking short-cuts (which involve driving too fast in residential areas) is wrong.

Is there one road in Dublin/Ireland where driving at the speed limit you can go through 3+ lights in a row without getting a red one? Surely some road is set up so that this is so!

Victor

Oh, about little old dears on busses - they really need to hold onto the hand rails like everyone else - I saw one go flying last week as the bus pulled off (no ramp involved).

Originally posted by Borzoi
While I do think that ramps are a good idea in areas with a lot of children etc, there is an enourmous difference in the quality of the ramps used especially, why is that?

Part of the problem was design, which has changed. In particular, patterned asphalt is being used instead of the previous brick (tended to break up under heavy traffic).

Part of it was construction, where some contractors weren't building to the design - too high or too steep. One of them got his butt sued earlier in the year.

Originally posted by Imposter
People wouldn't try and take short cuts if traffic management worked properly. .... Is there one road in Dublin/Ireland where driving at the speed limit you can go through 3+ lights in a row without getting a red one? Surely some road is set up so that this is so!

The problem is the legacy road system we have, all too often roads are laid out on triangles (not rectangles) of variable size, or 5 roads meet at a junction, not 3 or 4. In such circumstances, it is nigh impossible to allow continuous greens. What is being done is allowing busses benefit disproportionately from green lights.

Capt'n Midnight

saw something about rubber ramps - air filled and it seemed as though they had a pressure valve - so only cars had to go up and over - Buses and Ambulances would cause it to deflate...

Overall good traffic calming is welcome.

However, one disaster is building estates as cul-de sacs
Ok it allows rat running - but calming with big flower pots should help
But it also causes congestion - if I have to go to the nearest shop (half hour return trip on foot) then I have to drive about three times as far as I should because there is only one exit / enterance. Another way of looking it is that a lot of extra traffic is generated and the road capacity fills up quickly. Also in a lot of cases traffic heading north (eg:) has to share the same road as traffic heading south because there is only one route and no shortcuts. - This became especially clear during past snow fall.

Victor

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
saw something about rubber ramps - air filled and it seemed as though they had a pressure valve - so only cars had to go up and over - Buses and Ambulances would cause it to deflate...

I had not head of this, but speed cushions (cover only part of the width of the road) are now being used in preference to speed ramps (cover whole width of the roads except maybe the gutter - this cause problems for cyclists though as the camber is too steep).

A speed cushion is wide enough to force at least one wheel from a car to use it, however the wider wheelbase on ambulances and busses means they can pass over them relatively freely. You then get the problem with HGVs speeding past them. See sketch

loyatemu

they have some of these near where I live - made of metal!

but they are not really wide enough - if you line up your car correctly you can get the wheels to go either side (and I drive a peugeot 106 so not exaclt wide wheelbase). Though i suppose you do have to slow down a bit to line the wheels up.

Bee

[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually it is invariably good. Different design standards are used for bus and non-bus routes. I have a report that I will try to post up later. These measures have contributed to road deaths in Dublin (city council are) dropping from 53 in 1978 to 14 in 2001

A report? A piece of poorly researched propaganda was spewed forth by the Dublin City Council claiming that "traffic calming" reduced accidents in the city!

In fact it was the congestion created by the inept traffic management of Dublin City Councils so called "traffic engineers" that has reduced accidents due to traffic being reduced to a crawl through Dublin city.

They are simply trying to claim unworthy credit.

Remember the pathway extensions at junctions "pedestrian refuges"? These are lethal to cyclists, with cars, motorbikes etc competing for narrowed road space. Remember the deaths and numerous accidents at O'Connell Bridge until the "traffic Dept" was forced to re-widen the road tht was made dangerous by the "pedestrian refuge" creating a blind spot for lorries.

Road ramps instead of speed cushions are sited on numerous bus routes due to stupidity by the so called "traffic engineers" thus adding injury to insult.

What about ambulances? How many people have died due to ambulances being slowed down? You won't find DCC printing stats on these effects!

Delays from created by ramps are sometimes measured, the cumulative effect of series of ramps is never accounted for . Accumulative delays on many streets turn seconds of delay into minutes, as vehicles fail to regain cruising speed between the devices. Calming devices impose permanent, 24-hour delays to ambulances/fire brigades etc.

The effect of ramps on spinal/neck injury cases are a disgrace

They need to be scrapped now!

Bee

sceptre

Originally posted by Victor
In particular, patterned asphalt is being used instead of the previous brick (tended to break up under heavy traffic)

Or like the traffic light speed bump outside the post office in Mallow where the entire thing has sunk a few inches (though that's probably down to poor road building than anything else)

MDR

The effect of ramps on spinal/neck injury cases are a disgrace

Any ole evidence to back this up ?

Bee

Any ole evidence to back this up ?

Ask anyone that suffers from back pain that is triggered by impact.
How about, The U.S. Access Board publication, Accessible Rights of Way: sidewalks, street crossings, other pedestrian facilities, 1999, states that drivers with disabilities report the jarring from crossing speed humps even at low speeds can be painful and dangerous, resulting in the devices being “a barrier to roadway use.” Both publications suggest, in the absence of research, that entities consider other traffic calming measures. A lawsuit was filed against the City of Bethesda, MD by a disabled resident for placing speed humps on streets providing access to his home. Speed humps were removed from streets in San Diego, CA because of problems experienced by disabled residents. A website addressing the concerns of the disabled with deflection devices can be found at: http://www.digitalthreads.com/rada.

In August 2001, 50 bus drivers in Thatcham, Berkshire signed a petition demanding humps be redesigned, claiming that driving over them upto 160 times a day was causing spinal problems

Our own Dublin Bus drivers are taking similar action.

Did you see the interview with the emergency personnel on "Driven" last season? Highlighting the problems created by DCC outside of St Vincent's Hospital Dublin for ambulance passengers by ramps?

Bee

Victor

What design of hump / ramp is being referrred to there?

Johnmb

They also have the overwhelming support of residents.

Do you have anything to back up this claim? I only ask because I have seen many politicians sending letters to DCC claiming that the residents of my road want ramps put up, yet I have never seen anybody actually ask the residents if they want ramps, and none that I know of do want them.

A speed cushion is wide enough to force at least one wheel from a car to use it, however the wider wheelbase on ambulances and busses means they can pass over them relatively freely.

Do you actually drive a car? If so, is it something along the lines of a Seicento? I ask this because I have yet to come across a speed cushion that I cannot pass over without having any wheels use it. I drive a Fiesta BTW, hardly an extraordinarily wide wheel base. The speed cushions I am most familiar with do not require cars to use them, if you line up, but buses are forced to use them given that there are four in a line across the road, and the bus simply isn't wide enough to pass two cushions under it.

Victor

Originally posted by Johnmb
Do you have anything to back up this claim?

Extract from "Review of Road Accident Trends in Dublin City 1990 to 2001" - tables attached. (74kb)

Press release http://www.dublincity.ie/profile/pressr/030306.htm

MDR

Johnmb,

First off I have a car, a peugoet 106 diseal, and I have to say I think ramps in housing estates are f**kin great. There are a few particular ramps (main street ballymun) that I do have issue with (why oh why are they there), but if I had my choice I would ramp every housing estate in Dublin, i would have a ramp ever 5 meters

furthermore I would have sniper on the front of every Dublin Bus to pick off people driving in bus lanes, I would also have them in Shopping centres for people parking in Disabled Spots .... what we need is more Snipers ... !!!! JOBS for EX-TERIORISTS ... SNIPERS for DUBLIN !!!!!!!!!!

I reclaim the streets, I want my kids (whenever they arrive) to be safe in my housing estate and not have to suffer the short-cutters who used to pass through it at fifty miles an hour.

THANK GOD FOR RAMPS !

Johnmb

First, to Victor. I'd rather see the actual reports than the councils spin on things. There are a lot more areas that have had so-called traffic calming measures imposed on them, and they are not mentioned in the tables. I assume this means that the vast majority of people in those areas were not happy with the measures.

Now to MDR. I don't agree with speed ramps as, in my opinion, they are simply an obstacle that takes drivers attention away from what's going on to the sides of the road ahead, and in a housing estate, like mine that is deadly. My own solution would be to put speed cameras in built up areas. Big deal if someone does 50MPH on a long, straight dual carraigeway with a speed limit of 40MPH, that does not require Garda speed traps or hidden cameras. Much more dangerous is the idiot doing 40MPH along a small road in a built up area. The last thing that should be done is to give these idiots something else to distract them (such as ramps). Speed cameras and Garda speed traps would be much more useful, and would actually work as a safety device rather than their current financial use. Then you have the cushions, which are as useless as the painted speed stripes (or whatever they are called, which encourage you to speed). The only such traffic calming measures I have seen that work are the ramped platforms that I have seen on junctions. They are effective, and necessary. If a road is 30MPH, you should be able to drive along it at 30MPH, but at junctions you should slow down, hence my opposition to ramps, but support for the platforms.

Victor

Originally posted by Johnmb
First, to Victor. I'd rather see the actual reports than the councils spin on things. There are a lot more areas that have had so-called traffic calming measures imposed on them, and they are not mentioned in the tables. I assume this means that the vast majority of people in those areas were not happy with the measures.

From "Review of Road Accident Trends in Dublin City 1990 to 2001"

Finally, the Report to the SPC quoted the results of independent research conducted by Millward Brown IMS on the attitude of residents to traffic calming measures implemented by the City Council. The results of this research is shown in Tables 9A, 9B and 9C.

Well go away and do a Freedom of Information request on the Millward Brown IMS report. I suspect they didn't survey every street, but a representative sample.

Johnmb

Actually, I see no need to use the freedom of information act. I'll try to contact Millward Brown IMS directly to see how they made there selections, and just how representative they where.

Victor

Oh, ramps / cushions aren't the only means of traffic calming in use. Build outs, medians / pedestrian refuges, alternate colour surfaces and other measures are also used.

MDR

Now to MDR. I don't agree with speed ramps as, in my opinion, they are simply an obstacle that takes drivers attention away from what's going on to the sides of the road ahead, and in a housing estate, like mine that is deadly. My

I don't know what housing estate you live in but here in North Dublin joy riders used to run the gaunlet through housing estates, ramps sorted this problem right out. I doubt joyriders pay much attention to speed cameras.

The last thing that should be done is to give these idiots something else to distract them (such as ramps).

I fail see how ramps distract, although I agree speed camera's in housing estates is a good idea.

Johnmb

The ramps distract because most of the drivers speed up between them and spend more time watching the next ramp to break at the latest possible moment, rather than what's going on at the sides of the road. In our area, the ramps didn't stop joyriders as they didn't seem to mind recking the car for some reason (maybe to do with the fact that it wasn't theirs and was going to be burned out in any case). They were sorted the old fashioned way.

MDR

In our area, the ramps didn't stop joyriders as they didn't seem to mind recking the car for some reason

Wrecking the car never bothered the joyriders, not being able to get any speed up because of the damn ramps did, this forced them out on to main roads, where they where much more easily picked up by the Garda.

They were sorted the old fashioned way.

I wasn't aware that there was an old fashioned way for sorting joy-riders out, apart maybe from having the local thugs break their legs of-course.

The ramps distract because most of the drivers speed up between them and spend more time watching the next ramp to break at the latest possible moment, rather than what's going on at the sides of the road.

if this where the case, would statistics not reflect this fact, don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with what your advocating I would just need to be convinced before I started to support pulling up all the speed ramps in North Dublin

Johnmb

I wasn't aware that there was an old fashioned way for sorting joy-riders out, apart maybe from having the local thugs break their legs of-course.

Yep, much more effective than the Gardai are allowed to be. The prove is in the vastly reduced amount of joyriding going on in our area now. And the local people involved were concerned parents, not thugs.

Wrecking the car never bothered the joyriders, not being able to get any speed up because of the damn ramps did, this forced them out on to main roads, where they where much more easily picked up by the Garda.

Speed is not the only thing joyriders like. As for the Gardai, even when they did manage to catch a joyrider, it was very seldom that the courts did anything about it.

if this where the case, would statistics not reflect this fact, don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with what your advocating I would just need to be convinced before I started to support pulling up all the speed ramps in North Dublin

That's something I'm trying to find out as well. Hence, I'm trying to get a hold of the raw data that was used to compile the reports Victor mentioned above. One major thing I noticed was the claim that the timing of the accidents proves that congestion is not the cause of the reduction. I'd like to find out the placing of the accidents to know if the reduction has occured in places where traffic calming has taken place, and if so, what type, and what other changes have been made?

MDR

The prove is in the vastly reduced amount of joyriding going on in our area now. And the local people involved were concerned parents, not thugs.

Concerned parents they maybe, it starts with joy-riders, drugs etc, then later it moves on to others who are deemed to be socially undesireable, may or may not have happened in your instance, but when people start to take this sort of action it becomes very difficult to control, I personally take a very dim view of it.

As for the Gardai, even when they did manage to catch a joyrider, it was very seldom that the courts did anything about it.

The courts its seems rarely take action, one wonders if those who invested their time on the local problem, redirected their efforts to a national platform, we might now be in a better position, Garrett Fitzgerald argues that irish 'localism' starves central government of energy and input of some of societies most useful people, i would tend to agree.

Victor

Just getting back to Bee's original point, it is the steep short ramps found on private property, car parks and apartment complexes are the real hazard, no the ones on public roads.

Originally posted by Johnmb
Speed is not the only thing joyriders like.

They also like the chase, so the Gardaí avoid chasing (excessively) them these days. They try to work smart, not fast.

Originally posted by Johnmb
I'd like to find out the placing of the accidents to know if the reduction has occured in places where traffic calming has taken place, and if so, what type, and what other changes have been made?

What you need to do is extract the GIS (Geographic Information Survey) from the Garda / NRA / local authorities / DOELG, but they seem to be slow coming forward with it.

Bee

From the Waterford News and Star...

Speed ramps not a panacea for all ills

A KILMACTHOMAS councillor has publicly clashed with the County Engineer over the Co. Council’s opposition to installing speed ramps in housing estates.

At this month’s Co. Council meeting Cllr. Gerard Barron called for the Co. Council to re-examine its policy and install more speed ramps in built up residential areas. Ramps already provided in residential areas in Tramore seemed to be very effective, he argued.

The Labour councillor told the Council meeting that people were “crying out” for these road safety ramps. But Co. Engineer John O’Flynn was not for moving. He said speed ramps were only appropriate where a housing estate was used as a rat -run by motorists to get from one place to another.

He pointed out that the noise of vehicles going over these ramps could be quite disturbing to people at night And he said the fire and ambulance services had complained that ramps slowed them down when they were responding to an emergency call

Mr O’Flynn insisted that speed ramps were not appropriate for cul-de-sacs. He argued that there was no way that motorists could build up any speed in cul-de-sacs. “I think putting them down all over the place is not going to solve the problem. It’s going to create more problems.”

Cllr. Barron, however, disagreed that ramps couldn’t be placed in cul-de-sacs and argued that motorists could build up speed at short distances. “There shouldn’t be a blanket ban on them,” he said.

But Mr. O’Flynn replied that the only people that were going to speed on a cul-de-sac were the residents or people visiting them, who should all be well aware that children were playing in an area.

I was in an Ambulance on the way to hospital (emergency) with a relative when I had first hand experience of how dangerous the delays created by ramps are.

Bee