The Twin Towers

bloggs · 08-09-2003 2:25pm #1

What do you think should (as the current idea may be changed) replace the fallen Twin Towers?

I think they should rebuild them as they were, it could work as a symbol to the terrorists that the people of NY were able to get over the attack an get on with their lives. Perhaps have a monument inside each fo the buildings?

mr_angry · 08-09-2003 2:30pm

I think they should build some kind of memorial monument to the innocent people that died, rather than another monument to the financial power of the US. Either that, or they should leave it the way it is - a constant reminder never to become complacent again.

Wook · 08-09-2003 2:34pm

why not the real american symbol ? MC-donalds HQ ?

spongebob · 08-09-2003 2:41pm

Originally posted by bloggs
What do you think should (as the current idea may be changed) replace the fallen Twin Towers?

This is not a political discussion, try it in humanities instead.

Victor · 08-09-2003 2:42pm

I think this thread has been gone over about a half dozen times.

Originally posted by bloggs
I think they should rebuild them as they were, it could work as a symbol to the terrorists that the people of NY were able to get over the attack an get on with their lives.

And something for terrorists to knock down again - they design was flawed from day 1 (it was capable of withstanding a strike froma boeing 707, but not the consequent fire, there are now many bigger aircraft, carrying more fuel) :rolleyes:

mr_angry · 08-09-2003 2:44pm

Lets face it, the World Trade Centre was picked on by the terrorists because it represented the financial power of the West over some of the dirt-poor countries that are breeding grounds for this kind of activity. Building another one will just make it a target once again.

I don't mean to blame the US for anything that happened on September 11th, but they don't seem to realise WHY this happened.

bonkey · 08-09-2003 3:47pm

Originally posted by Muck
This is not a political discussion, try it in humanities instead.

You are not a moderator. Try not moderating.

jc

spongebob · 08-09-2003 4:32pm

Lets erect something or else fill the hole in in case someopne trips and falls into it !

JustHalf · 08-09-2003 6:07pm

This I reckon:

Daniel Libdeskind won the competition. There are more pictures.

Éomer of Rohan · 08-09-2003 10:54pm

No matter what they build, if it is a defiant statement, I swear I hope the terrorists knock it the hell down again. The Twin Trade Towers were an emblem of US triumphalism and I damn sure am going to blame the US for bringing the events of September 11th on themselves.

I celebrate the 11th of September as the day that crass US imperialism was revealed, in 1973. Once again, in 2001, it became the day that began the revelation for a new generation of exactly what the US is capable of, not to mention what our own media is capable of. I specifically mean the present situation in Afghanistan where there are ten thousand US troops and the Taliban are regrouping - there last week, two US soldiers were gunned down and there was hardly a blip. The arrogance of the US dictates that attention is focussed on the dispute that it is actually doing something about, whether what it is doing is right or wrong.

gandalf · 08-09-2003 11:36pm

Éomer that has to be one of the most pathetic posts I have seen on boards in quite a while. There is no way I would wish a horrible incident like that on any nation on this earth again, no matter what the policies and actions of their government. Sure US foreign policy has caused death and grief across quite a number of nations on this planet but did the ordinary people who were going on about their daily lives in those towers deserve those deaths ??

If you represent what Communism stood for then thank god it is dead as a political system!!!

Getting back on topic I think they should put something back in its place and I think the winning design would be an excellent choice.

Gandalf.

bonkey · 09-09-2003 9:10am

If they're gonna insist on building something (I'd favour a park with no major structures), then I like the winning solution.

Whats depressing is that I heard on the radio today that some of the steel from teh WTC will be used to clad the front of a warship "to show the continuing resolve".

Way to go....

jc

(p.s. I'm still hoping I mistranslated teh news report)

09-09-2003 9:25am

There was a discussion on Newsnight on BBC2 the other night.
They were reckoning that with $7 billion( it could have been $17 billion) from the insurance fund, that the owner of the site had plenty of money to do what ever he wanted and that was likely to be what makes the most money, which included ignoring any winning design.

mm

bloggs · 09-09-2003 9:34am

Originally posted by JustHalf
This I reckon:

Daniel Libdeskind won the competition. There are more pictures.

I think this is the most ugly of the designs. Looks like somethign a four year old would create

Some of the others were great i think.

Bloody hell Eomer!!!! Will you please take that back and apologise for anyone who was offended, i didn't have any family where killed in the attack but a friend of mine did, and he would be very angry to think the there would be Irish people who would praise the likes of Bin Laden.

Jaden · 09-09-2003 10:20am

What did Bin Laden do?

If OJ can get off, I'm pretty sure they could never convict Osama.

This is just one of these things that depress me about the modern world, and it's reliance on mainstream news reporting. The central idea is, that if you repeat a statement often enough, it becomes fact.

I have never seen credible evidence linking Osama to any part of the planning or execution of this atrocity.

He is after all innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

Isn't he???

Éomer of Rohan · 09-09-2003 11:45am

Bloggs, I will not take it back at all. America had it coming; Bin Laden, IF it was Bin Laden, attacked a viable economic target and was aiming at other targets which in a war are viable; military and governmental.

America brought it on themselves, simple as that. People continually say that it was a religious attack - but even the American's own report on 'the causes of terrorism' set one of the major causes at the door of economic problems - and I fully believe that the economic problems of the lesser developed world are deliberately caused by the Western world, especially and more than any other single power, the United States both through structural adjustment programs (via the WTO!!!) and through the MNE's that go after the indigenous resources of LDCs.

Nowhere in what I said earlier praised Bin Laden - he's a fundamentalist muslim willing to exploit the hate created in Muslim societies by the exploitation of the West - I'm not a fundamentalist muslim and therefore our outlooks differ.

And as for Gandalf's churlish comment about if this being what communism is...blah blah blah, get a hold of yourself please and kindly credit me with being more than the automatons you people seem to think communism will mass produce. That is to say, I'm entitled to hold my own views without socialist ideology entering in to it; what I said was an opinion based on the realities of the world, NOT how socialists would solve the problem.

Victor · 09-09-2003 12:56pm

Originally posted by Man
There was a discussion on Newsnight on BBC2 the other night.
They were reckoning that with $7 billion( it could have been $17 billion) from the insurance fund, that the owner of the site had plenty of money to do what ever he wanted and that was likely to be what makes the most money, which included ignoring any winning design.

The site is owned by the Port Authority. I'm not sure if the lease on the actual buildings is current. Somwthing says frustration of contract and force majure to me.

gandalf · 09-09-2003 1:29pm

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
And as for Gandalf's churlish comment about if this being what communism is...blah blah blah, get a hold of yourself please and kindly credit me with being more than the automatons you people seem to think communism will mass produce. That is to say, I'm entitled to hold my own views without socialist ideology entering in to it; what I said was an opinion based on the realities of the world, NOT how socialists would solve the problem.

Sorry Eomer I don't credit you with anything at all, as far as I am concerned you are nothing but a little boy trying to look smart. You are the first to complain to the moderators on this board when there is a sniff of anything that doesn't agree with your views in discussions and then you get all huffy because I expressed my view that you with your pathetic little attempts at trying to be sensational are giving Communism (which you proport to be a supporter of) a bad name.

So Eomer here are a few questions for you, did you agree with the attack on September the 11th 2001 and were you happy with the bodycount ?

Gandalf.

Éomer of Rohan · 09-09-2003 1:57pm

Quoted from Gandalf
Sorry Eomer I don't credit you with anything at all, as far as I am concerned you are nothing but a little boy trying to look smart

I do believe that that comment contravenes the rules.

Quoted from Gandalf
You are the first to complain to the moderators on this board when there is a sniff of anything that doesn't agree with your views in discussions

The only times I complain are when there is something in a post that is out of line; ie a direct attack on a poster or overt and denigrating, not to mention unfounded, attacks on ideas. Again, your comments are out of line.

Quoted from Gandalf
all huffy because I expressed my view that you with your pathetic little attempts at trying to be sensational

Hardly sensational; if you paid any attention to what goes on on these boards, you would remember that for about three months Sand posted with a comment of mine saying almost the same thing in his signature, not to mention the numerous previous discussions in which I have defended precisely what I said above.

Quoted from Gandalf
are giving Communism (which you proport to be a supporter of) a bad name

I really love the hypocrisy of these boards. I purport to be a supporter of communism now is that it? Funny that since in every other argument on political ideology that goes on, my posts get attacked for being socialist. Please re-read what I said previously regarding this.

Quoted from Gandalf
So Eomer here are a few questions for you, did you agree with the attack on September the 11th 2001 and were you happy with the bodycount ?

Was I happy with the bodycount? No. I do not like death, even of the guilty. Did I agree with the attack on the Pentagon? Absolutely. Did I agree with the attempted attack on the white house/capitol hill? Absolutely. Did I agree with the attack on the TTTs? Yes, though not for the same reasons as Bin Laden.

The fact is that imperialist power of any sort needs to be stopped and America is the number one imperialist power. The American willingness to resort to arms means that the method to halt this will probably be force - to acknowledge a probable necessity does not mean I have to like it.

No country can free itself from capitalism unless it allows the US economic interests to screw the country over worse than before; otherwise it finds an American fleet or an American-backed army at the doorstep very quickly. America bribes, bombs, lays seige to and starves nations that disagree with it's policies and speaking as someone who disagrees with almost every policy of the USA since the 19th Century, I feel that anything that will halt US interference in the sovereign affairs of other nations is welcome.

Understand however that this is not exclusive to America; America is just the prime exponent of these right-wing ideals - if it were not America that was doing these things, it would be some other nation in the forefront, just as it was Spain and Portugal of the 1500's France of the 1600's, Britain from the 1700's to the end of the colonial era.

Victor · 09-09-2003 3:15pm

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Did I agree with the attack on the Pentagon? Absolutely.

Even using civilians as the weapon?

SkepticOne · 09-09-2003 3:18pm

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
No matter what they build, if it is a defiant statement, I swear...

Like this one?

Wook · 09-09-2003 3:29pm

as i said before , build a MC-donalds on this ground, see if they like it. ( they do it everywhere else , so what different about this one?)

LegacyUser · 09-09-2003 3:38pm

Originally posted by Wook
as i said before , build a MC-donalds on this ground, see if they like it. ( they do it everywhere else , so what different about this one?)

they could have new specialties like twin happy meals

ArphaRima · 09-09-2003 3:54pm

I dislike American Foreign policy. Intensely.
I hate the fact that Americans dont care about it. Even now. And its getting worse.

But the cutting of flight attendant's throats, pilot's throats; that stark message to the passengers of aircraft that they are going to die... 3000 people killed in one day from 4 attacks. 1 failed. 2 on Twin towers. 1 on Pentagon. That is not justice. That is a massacre.

Yes, the pentagon is a valid target - Military.
The white house too maybe - Political/Military Leadership.

Twin Towers. NO.

Aircraft used. NO.

Yes there is a link between American foreign policy, the military and wall street. Each drives the other.

September 11th did not change the world. It changed America.
Now they are looking for an enemy they cant fight, and their president is putting every excuse for a war in their path.

fisty · 09-09-2003 4:04pm

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
America bribes, bombs, lays seige to and starves nations that disagree with it's policies and speaking as someone who disagrees with almost every policy of the USA since the 19th Century, I feel that anything that will halt US interference in the sovereign affairs of other nations is welcome.

What about world war two, America helped your commie mates and britain fight back facism, did you disagree with that?

ringzer · 09-09-2003 4:47pm

Of the people who have posted on this topic, how many have actually visited ground zero and read the stories of people who have survived and not? How about reading the transcripts of the calls made to emergency services from people stuck up in the towers? Has anyone actually thought about it for one second? What would you do if you were in that situation?

I was stuck in the blackout here in NY a few weeks ago. It was pretty chaotic, with everyone thinking another attack was taking place. I can only imagine what it was like to be in NY on that day.

I suppose its fairly easy to be distant from the actual death and destruction of it all when you're in Ireland. But come over here and hear some real life stories, and I dont think you'll be as quick to wish another such attack on any country, especially America.

As for the main topic, I agree with the winning design. It combines office space and memorials in a very good way.

LegacyUser · 09-09-2003 4:56pm

Originally posted by ringzer
Of the people who have posted on this topic, how many have actually visited ground zero

'ground zero', The site directly below, directly above, or at the point of detonation of a nuclear weapon.

Nagasaki - Hiroshima

nick_riviera · 09-09-2003 4:58pm

I do not like death, even of the guilty.

Thats a pretty twisted world view.What were those in the twin towers guilty of?Of going to work too early?If the people in the WTC are legitimate targets,then surely so are the rest of us.

Of course to extremists of any flavour(fascists,religious fundamentalists,communists),the ends always justify the means,and human life is expendable.

Getting back to the topic at hand,the twin towers covered quite an area of land.It would be best to construct something which would bring people and businesses back into the area,as well as having an appropriate memorial.

ArphaRima · 09-09-2003 5:08pm

Of the people who have posted on this topic, how many have actually visited ground zero and read the stories of people who have survived and not? How about reading the transcripts of the calls made to emergency services from people stuck up in the towers? Has anyone actually thought about it for one second?

I have. For all answers.

What would you do if you were in that situation

Like a lot of the people in that situation. I probably would have died.

Please do not justify ANY of the current wars by sympathy for September 11th 2001 (and it's not 9-1-1).

I dont think you'll be as quick to wish another such attack on any country

One of Americas first actions was to go to war. Then again. To war.

A Dossier on Civilian Victims of United States' Aerial Bombing of Afghanistan: A Comprehensive Accounting - The minimum number of casualties amounts to more than 3,500

ringzer · 09-09-2003 5:23pm

Originally posted by bananayoghurt
'ground zero', The site directly below, directly above, or at the point of detonation of a nuclear weapon.

Nagasaki - Hiroshima

Ok, smartass, if you dont have anything useful to add to this topic, then dont bother. Ground Zero is the commonly known phrase used to describe the World Trade Center. I'm just merely using the language used by millions others, I didnt invent it, so dont go quoting dictionary definitions of the phrase to me.

Also, what are all these comments about the wars afterwards? I made no reference to the actions taken by the US government in response to 9/11. I was simply reminding people of the immense human tragedy that took place there, thats all. Nothing else.

ArphaRima · 09-09-2003 5:26pm

Also, what are all these comments about the wars afterwards? I made no reference to the actions taken by the US government in response to 9/11. I was simply reminding people of the immense human tragedy that took place there, thats all. Nothing else.

I was simply reminding people of the immense human tragedy that took place after September 11th 2001, thats all. Nothing else.

The Twin Towers

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