RIAA Sues 12-Year Old Girl

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.vnunet.com/News/1143514

The head of peer-to-peer (P2P) company Grokster has offered to pay the $2,000 settlement the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) has agreed with a 12-year-old girl over her file sharing.
Wayne Rosso, president of P2P software development company Grokster, said he had made the offer because he was "disgusted" by the RIAA's tactics. "I'm trying to contact the mother to offer to pay the $2,000 for her out of my own pocket. I'm disgusted by the RIAA and its extortion tactics," he told vnunet.com.

"I thought that the two Joes, McCarthy and Stalin, were dead. But little did I know that they're both alive and well and running the RIAA."

A further 260 users face lawsuits, including a 71 year-old grandfather.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/082903.asp

All music format shipments (total U.S. music shipments), including to direct and special markets, dropped 15.8 percent from 398.5 million units (first half of 2002) to 335.6 million units (first half of 2003). In dollar value, this represents a 12 percent decrease, from $5.5 billion to $4.8 billion.

Ignoring the fact that a lot of the drop is due to the recession or music industry cycles let's look at the figures..

So they ship ~760 million units of all formats each year to 250 million americans. - Thats only 3 each per year - the music industry obviously has major marketing problems it that's the best they can do given the number of people who listen to music (~90% of all radio airtime / tons of music stations. etc)

andrew163

"I don't think we need to club people to death to get them to understand that downloading is a problem. I worry that the tactics and the tools are excessive," Senator Norm Coleman said in a statement.

understatement of the century.... haven't these people ever heard of overkill? :mad:

thanks to P2P, ive bought 2 CDs in the last month or so that I would not have bought WITHOUT P2P....... because I first got the songs off kazaa, I liked them, so bought the rest of the album....

Without P2P i'd have never considered buying the CDs.........

RIAA are ba$tards. This whole thing makes that eircom rat look like a saint...... NEVER thought I'd hear myself say that :rolleyes:

anywhoo........ ive deleted winmx and kazaa and im not using them until this whole moneymaking charade of the RIAA blows over.....

again, ba$tards
:mad: :mad: :mad:

Cabaal

Originally posted by Dustaz
Well i know that i buy less albums since i got broadband.

Draw your own conclusions.

At the end of the day theres Artists losing money because of me.

Pfft I think they'll live with 1M less some how, cribs makes me totally sick!

Besides obviously the RIAA are starting to give up on "we're loosingh money as its not getting them anywhere and now there starting on other things altogether....

Cabaal

Ok basically we all know that illegal file sharing has existed as long as the Internet, hell illegal copies of Doom were available when it came out, graned it was slow but if you knew where to look you could find them.

When I started on the net most things were on ftp sites and then as we all know file sharing appz came in a few years later.

But the fact of the matter is the RIAA/MPAA etc etc can do what they like but they will NEVER stop illegal music/film sharing.

When it comes down to it, people like MP3's and there';s a market for music files after all Creative wouldn't have made the Jukebox and Apple would not have made the ipod if there wasn't a market for it
The CD is dead and the RIAA have had years to adapt INSTEAD they have just tried to fight the change because there scared as **** of loosing there hold on all that money they have now.

I see the music industry as sick, I watch cribs and gringe at how much sickening money they have and I no longer see MTV as I used to, I used to see it as free and easy going now I just see it as a channel doing nothing but advertising products/names/logos/brands with everything they air.
Infact properly the best way it was put was in the book No Logo.
If you haven't read it READ IT NOW!


Yes downloaing the latest #1 song is wrong I know that, you know that hell even my dog knows that¬.
But your telling me that selling a CD single for €6-8 is'ent daylight robbery??!

A CD is a CD is a CD, its round and its a piece of plastic nothing more, AOL gives millions of them away for free and so does EirCON etc etc
Don't see them charging a arm and a leg for them, at most I would expect a CD single to cost €2 its a valid price for it to sell for and a album should be selling for around €10-12.

If you do the maths I think you'll find the industry will still make a profit in the end, maybe not a massive sickening profit like they do now but enough for that Jennifer Lopez one or whatever one hit wounder band are in the charts these days to get a new car or maybe buy something nice for themselfs.

Now have a read of this , its old but has many valid points.

well thats my rant over...

bizmark

I no longer see MTV as I used to, I used to see it as free and easy going now I just see it as a channel doing nothing but advertising products/names/logos/brands with everything they air.

this is off topic and all but......Mtv lol you be hard pressed to see any music on mtv anymore and the music you do see is cut short so some dumb ass presenter can have 5 mins extra to make a ass of himsel.....................

ANYWAY..............back on topic....File shareing is great theirs no 2 ways around it why pay for it when you can get it for free....sure its wrong but thats human nature for ya.To try and fight file shareing is pointless wast of time and money it wont go away and wiith broadband becomeing more and more ease to get it will only get bigger

Cabaal

Originally posted by bizmark
To try and fight file shareing is pointless wast of time and money it wont go away and wiith broadband becomeing more and more ease to get it will only get bigger

On a slightly related topic, if you stop file sharing ALOT of people won't want DSL anymore, its half the reason most people have it.

So if the RIAA did ever win, down goes alot of ISP's as alot of customers will be happy with slower connections.

bizmark

not sure about that......Most sites now are built for broadband in mind.....Online games for the PC Ps2 and Xbox ........ game and softwear updates .........etc etc etc

Dont worry about it File shareing will be around more than likely longer than me and you

Dr Bolouswki

*cough*

ahhhhemmm... ehhh. I used to buy about 4 CD singles and 2 albums a month back in the early 90's... then I discovered Napster... then Winmx.... then Kazaa, Morpheus etc....

Haven't bought an album since 1996...

I go to gigs infrequently and in fairness, I'm not into music as much as I used to be, but I simply don't buy CD's cos I hate having to keep somewhere to store them - and because I can get them good quality for free...

I think that's a problem for the record companies. Thing is, if they offered a good download service for say €5 an album, thus cutting down on ALL their manufacturing costs, I'd probably still buy... in fact, I'd buy far more than I download (stuck on 56k :mad: )

Thats €5 they otherwise wouldn't have - and I doubt I'm alone in my attitude...

It's trying to keep their profits so high that has created this situation....

Cabaal

Just came across this so I thought I'd upload it

Its a 10MB video, but its funny/weird
http://www.cabaal.org/pub/archive/vids/riaa_advert.mpeg
CONTAINS VIOLENCE, MAY NOT BE SUITABLE FOR CHILDREN or PEOPLE OF A SENSITIVE NATURE...

A further 260 users face lawsuits, including a 71 year-old grandfather

Anyone see a pattern emerging here? Next thing you know they'll be sueing little puppies and kittens

fisty

a few things i wanna get off my chest about P2P...

If you have dialup, you download single mp3s.
When you get broadband you start downloading albums and movies and full apps, thats how it works... you graduate and are given much more power which you can use for stealing if you're that way inclined.

Broadband isn't to blame for stealing, thats human nature.
If people are particularly prone to stealing, broadband can satisfy their inherant greed but I strongly believe most people would be fair if they had the option.


I do think people can get full use of their broadband and not steal, its just hard to see kids and students with very limited cash and a fat college pipe not using P2P.

For example, because of the extraordinary cost of broadband in ireland people feel like they want to recoup the disgusting
amount they paid out and use p2p to satisfy the feeling that they're getting their moneys worth.


Lawsuits are definately not the way forward, the problem is far bigger than that, it's worldwide, under many jurisdictions.

What is needed here is fresh thinking, create a service where people can download anything they want, music, games, apps, movies....whatever.

Then charge people for that privilege on a per download basis.

Start a massive advertising campaign making people know this is available and that not using it is outright stealing. Eventually it will become socially unacceptable to steal because you can. For example, just because I can punch some old lady in the mouth and take her purse and get away with it doesn't mean I should.....

If you were to tell someone you did this they would see you as scum. This is the attitude record companies should be looking for when someone says they download from P2P.

Legal action is so the last thing they want, history shows creating martyrs is a bad idea, time and time again its turned around and bitten them in the arse.

If they examine the politics of whats happening they will see this, filesharers see themselves as a community, and the RIAA as the boogie man in that community.

When, and I mean When and not If, the RIAA start a music download service, where you can download from fast servers any album you want in mp3 format for a small fee it will take off very fast(itunes anyone?).

Unfortunately the longer they keep alienating the community and sending out those subpoenas , the less people will sign up.

The reson for this is that the community will want revenge for all the martyrs being created by the RIAA at the moment because of their current policies on the issue.


-Take note RIAA, move with the times or get left behind.-
-The rest of the world isn't going to wait for you to get your finger out-

fisty.

RainyDay

Arguements relating to the fancy houses that you've seen on cribs are ridiculous. So if I live in a slum and your modest house/flat looks like a palace to me, does that justify me ripping off your video or your car?

Arguements relating to the manufacturing cost of a CD are equally ridiculous. In case you haven't noticed, we're talking about content here people, not media. Do you expect to get a newspaper for the price of randomly printed paper, or do you recognise the value of the writing. Do you expect to get a Sky/NTL/Chorus subscription for the manufacturing costs of the satellite box, or do you recognise the value of the programs?

If you don't like the prices charged for CD's, you have one valid option - Don't buy it. Anything else is theft.

I'm amazed at how creative people can become at dreaming up excuses to salve their own consciences. I'm left wondering how many of those posters who are extolling the virtues of unauthorised music downloads earn their living in their software business (as I do) - I presume you have no objections when people make unauthorised copies of your products, and get the value of your products without paying?

Cabaal

Originally posted by RainyDay
Arguements relating to the fancy houses that you've seen on cribs are ridiculous. So if I live in a slum and your modest house/flat looks like a palace to me, does that justify me ripping off your video or your car?

Since when is downloading a CD worth of music equal to stealing a car?
Very different items both physically/value/cost of making etc
Come on your stretching the whole thing to its limits at this stage!

As for the rest, the math has been done, hell even some Artists can see that the whole situation is ****ed up beyond belief!

You'll notice nobody here is trying to justify downloading Photoshop is ok because its a piece of software thats woth it, where as most music these days is shiite and is just released to ripp off teenagers!
Its just a shame the RIAA can't see the truth, I'm not going to get into a big argument on this part of the topic.

The fact is the RIAA sued a 12 year old girl ffs! its beyong a joke.

Jorinn

The whole thing doesn't make sense as not only are they giving themselves some bad publicity but they seem to have had a negative impact on their sales.

In the past few months since the RIAA started their legal battles the amount of filesharers online has dropped by about 20%, at the same time sales of cds ALSO fell. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

On a related note people are noting the amount of albums they buy since they got broadband etc. I've bought more albums and dvds since I got broadband, bought 3 DVDs and 2 albums in the last week alone, coincidently I had 1 of those albums and all of the DVDs in MP3/DivX format already. I guess it just depends on what kind of person you are.

RainyDay

Since when is downloading a CD worth of music equal to stealing a car?
Very different items both physically/value/cost of making etc
Come on your stretching the whole thing to its limits at this stage!

Ah now I get your ethical position - you are basically saying that 'a little bit' of theft is OK?

So let's leave the car analogy behind - if you have a really nice racing bike and you are pretty comfortable & I am struggling to make ends meet, then there is nothing wrong with me nicking your water bottle or your pump off the frame - OK?


Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I like how the music industry works or how they price their materials - I'm just pointing out that just because I don't like their prices, that doesn't give me the right to steal their content.

Imposter

I'll say it again for those who can't read. It's COPYRIGHT VIOLATION not stealing.

Yes it's illegal but it's not stealing. Did anyone here who's on the RIAA's side, ever copy anything off the radio or television and look/listen to it more than once? If so then you're doing the same thing. Ever broken any laws? Speeding, jaywalking anyone?

Also how do you justify me not being able to rip my newly purchased CD so that I can listen to it on an MP3 player? Surely i've paid for the copyrighted material but the technology used by the music industry is preventing me from using the material I have bought the way I want to.

RainyDay

Also how do you justify me not being able to rip my newly purchased CD so that I can listen to it on an MP3 player?

I don't have to justify it to you - It is against the law - plain & simple. It is up to the copyright owner to set the conditions of sale - If you don't like those conditions, don't buy the product. You don't have the right to make up your own rules.

Yes it's illegal but it's not stealing. Did anyone here who's on the RIAA's side, ever copy anything off the radio or television and look/listen to it more than once? If so then you're doing the same thing. Ever broken any laws? Speeding, jaywalking anyone?

Yes, I've broken speed limits from time to time. And if I am caught, I pay the price. I don't whinge about the speed limits being too low or guards having 'real criminals to catch' etc etc. If you break the law, you pay the price.

You seem to be encouraging a society where each individual makes their own decision about which laws they keep & which laws the break, and the rest of us have to put up with it. Is that really the way you want our society to go?

daveg

I agree with the analogy of taping off the radio or TV. It is exactly the same. IT IS NOT STEALING it is copyright violation. The reason there is uproar is because the music industry is "claiming" to loose so much money because of P2P.

For all those who are veminously against P2P/MP3 ect have you ever taped a film off the TV? Have you ever recorded a song off the radio?

Mr E

It might be a simplistic view, but I treat filesharing as "try before you buy."

If I download an album and I like it, then I'll buy the bloody thing. I have no problem with that. I spend at least €100 a month on CDs.

I discovered so many cool bands and singers through downloading which I would NEVER have heard of otherwise, and yes - I'm buying their CDs. Whats more, if I download one great album by a particular artist, I'm more inclined to check out their back catalogue too.

I'll shut up now.

/me goes back to Dido's new album.....

- D.

Imposter

Originally posted by RainyDay
I don't have to justify it to you - It is against the law - plain & simple. It is up to the copyright owner to set the conditions of sale - If you don't like those conditions, don't buy the product. You don't have the right to make up your own rules.

That's fine. But then why don't they have some sort of identifier to say that this is a Copy-protected CD. Then I have no problem with it. Surely then people who would have put this on MP3 players then wouldn't buy the CD. It's also the same companies selling these MP3 players (see Sony example earlier).

If you break the law, you pay the price.

WRONG!! If you're caught you pay the price. Otherwise noone would break the law.

You seem to be encouraging a society where each individual makes their own decision about which laws they keep & which laws the break, and the rest of us have to put up with it. Is that really the way you want our society to go?

It's great that you know what I'm trying to encourage here but unfortunately you're wrong.

My points were to highlight the points you have just made. People are whinging that this is wrong/illegal/"stealing". I was making the point that anyone who has never broken a law can make this point. Others are hypocrites.

I was also trying to make the point that the music industry are whinging about the loss of sales and the effect this is having on the artists. This gives the impression they are concerned about the artists. They are not.

Similarly the artists are concerned about copyright, 'cause that's where they make their money. This is perfectly understandable but is being abused by the record industry by using unmarked copy-protected CD's.

It is setting the conditions of purchase but the purchaser doesn't know this until the item is bought. AFAIK ripping a CD you've bought for your own personal use is not illegal.

Sorry if this sounds like an agressive stance but you completely mistook what I meant.

malico

"At the same time, the RIAA offered amnesty to file-swappers who come forward and agree to stop illegally downloading music over the Internet"

I really wonder how many people are going to go for this! Turn up and get sued really. They probally mean "amnesty AFTER you pay back"

dmd

I'm not sure the recording industry is looking for the right thing, she should be punished, she's a criminal , maybe instead of money they could go 'round and punch her in the face. Maybe it'd look like this.

Capt'n Midnight

RE: I agree with the analogy of taping off the radio or TV. It is exactly the same.

When you tape something off the radio it's different.
You already have the rights to listen/watch it, all you are doing is introducing a time-shift instead...

And if you do a mission-impossible job on the tape then you should be totally legit.

Betcha the RIAA are kicking themselves that they did not get that implemented - all it would have taken is a second erase head after the play head rather than before - and depending on whether you are in play or record mode on or other heads would work - and you'd be able to buy special tapes for recording your own non-copyright material, they'd just cost more 'cos of a pre-paid royalty payment..
- but the genie's out of the bottle...

RainyDay

I'll say it again for those who can't read. It's COPYRIGHT VIOLATION not stealing.

Yes it's illegal but it's not stealing.

I suppose it depends on your definition of 'stealing'. In an article in today's Sunday Tribune, Denis Kelliher, barrister & one of Ireland's leading legal minds on intellectual proplerty states;

"Laws in Ireland on copyright and Hapster-type activities are basically draconian" said Kelleher. "The copyright act of 2000 is one of the toughest copyright laws in the word". Kelleher also said file trading would be a criminal offence under the Theft and Fraud Offences Act of 2001.

unkel

Originally posted by Cabaal
Just came across this so I thought I'd upload it

Its a 10MB video, but its funny/weird
http://www.cabaal.org/pub/archive/vids/riaa_advert.mpeg
CONTAINS VIOLENCE, MAY NOT BE SUITABLE FOR CHILDREN or PEOPLE OF A SENSITIVE NATURE...

Jaysus Cabaal WTF? Is this a real ad run by the RIAA or just a sarcastic piece of work depicting the RIAA as the bullies / facists they are

If it is the first it is sick :mad:

ixoy

Originally posted by Cabaal
Just came across this so I thought I'd upload it

Its a 10MB video, but its funny/weird
http://www.cabaal.org/pub/archive/vids/riaa_advert.mpeg
CONTAINS VIOLENCE, MAY NOT BE SUITABLE FOR CHILDREN or PEOPLE OF A SENSITIVE NATURE...

Great stuff! No doubt they'll be employing such severe tactics soon enough!

BTW, are there any lawsuits petertaining to downloading TV programs which aren't yet available on DVD? Say you wanted to watch the US broadcast and couldn't wait for it to be shown here? I know the MPAA are going after movies, but I've yet to here of someone actively being done for getting something on a P2P service (altho' numerous TV sites have been shutdown, that's somewhat different).

daveg

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
RE: I agree with the analogy of taping off the radio or TV. It is exactly the same.

When you tape something off the radio it's different.
You already have the rights to listen/watch it, all you are doing is introducing a time-shift instead...

And if you do a mission-impossible job on the tape then you should be totally legit.

Now I'm not 100% capt'n but surely if you record a song from the radio onto tape/mp3 whatever it is illegal. And afaik as illegal as ripping/downloading a song.

ixoy

Originally posted by daveg
Now I'm not 100% capt'n but surely if you record a song from the radio onto tape/mp3 whatever it is illegal. And afaik as illegal as ripping/downloading a song.

No you can rip a song for your own use. That's fine. You've bought the rights to that song. Of course you can't pass that mp3 on to anyone else nor can you play it for anyone else. There is some act (whose name I forget) that gives you the right to make this copy.

Ripping is fine in that sense but downloading a song you don't own is bold and evil and you should see what the RIAA are going to do to your family come the end of the year.

I think you can also record a song from the radio - again for your
own use. Strictly. Either way they'd never prosecute you for it unless you began to sell it.

Capt'n Midnight

It's a bit like smoking - get them into the habbit of buying CD's when they are young and they will buy when the're older..
But if people who have always bought CD's are giving up buying them....


Excluding internet calls, most research done on voice calls show people spend about the same amount regardless of the price of the calls - when calls are cheaper they talk longer. When calls cost more they just get annoyed. People do budget for stuff - if you overcharge then only those fanatics (fans) who dont care about the price will continue to buy. If you drop the price then more people buy and more importantly will get in to the habit of buying..

=========================================
If you record something, watch or listen to it once and then erase it you should be ok.

Unfortunately it is quite legal to have a monopoly in the USA so you can't complain about that.

What are the legallities on the song Madonna allowed to be downloaded in the US ? - can people copy it - can non-us citizens download it - can US citizens based here download it legally ???

===========================================
The whole problem with the digital age is that the nth generation copy is as good as the original , also the delivery mechanisms have changed totally. From Japan to Sweden you can get resedential connections at 100mb - An album could be "gone in 60 seconds"

One of the great fears in the record industry (even if some don't realise it) is someone walking in with a USB hard drive and three days later a DVD goes on sale in Hong Kong for $10 with the current top 100 Albums on it in mp3 format - or worse a box set of the complete set of master tapes..

And it's not a question of if this will happen...