Operation Palestinian Freedom

ArphaRima

My question is quite a basic one.

If you were a Palestinian would you fight Israel?
I would.


I am Irish. In 1969, at the height of the troubles, the Irish army was sent to the border of Northern Ireland. This sparked a panic in the north that the Republic of Ireland was about to invade.

"It is clear also that the Irish government can no longer stand by and see innocent people injured or perhaps worse" - Jack Lynch

I can say with almost certainty that had i been born yet, I would have joined the IRA that year.

(whether Ireland was actually going to invade, or if it was a pressure tactic is a disputed fact)

fisty

ahhahahha
If Palestine tried to invade israel there would be a massacre, hahaha.
Never gonna happen.
Simple Reason?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

bloggs

Im probably showing my ignorance on the subject, but didn't Syria, and Egypt invade Israel in 1967 (3 day war), not sure if that had anything to do with the Arabs living in Israel.

There isn't a country in the Middle East that could invade Israel. Not unless all the Arab states joined together, anyway with Israel having the Nuke (thanks America), nobody would dare. Also anyone who did would probably by attacked by the US as well, due to the Jewish/Israeli lobby that has such a grip on the US government.

ArphaRima

Israel was founded in 1948.

It doesnt involve invasion. Palestine is an occupied territory for the most part.

Israel exists now because it has American support. Period.

Six Day War of 1967 - Israel surprise attacks Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq. Wins.

The Yom-Kippur war of 1973 - Egypt, Syria, and Iraq attacked.
Israel, despite enormous odds against it, prevailed, and took land it holds to this day from the aggressors.

The Beer Baron

What the 5th largest army in the world.
In alliance with THE largest army in the world.

And let's not forget one of the most sophisitcated and ruthless intelligence networks in existence.

didn't Syria, and Egypt invade Israel in 1967

No- they planned to but the Mossad heard of it first- and Israel decided to act accordingly.

Which was their way of saying- you all hate us, we've been persecuted, we've been murdered in our millions, we've been beaten we've been spat upon and beaten up in the streets of every town and every city we have ever been in. Now we finally have a place to call our own- now you want to take that away from us too?

Oh no, Mr. Nassar, we know what you're up to. We'll hit you first- because now, now we got an army and now- nobody's ever gonna **** with us again!

In this respect? Oh I totally agree. From the post-war 'oh those poor 6-million holocaust victims' POV- I can understand that.

And for the hostility of surrounding nations- I can understand why they're pissed too. But the territories they gained still remain an issue of contention. Still form the source of the problems we have today. And Israel doesn't really want to discuss it- so GW gladly puts his 1/2-assed "Roadmap to Peace" back in his presidential glove compartment.

To be honest I think both Jews and Muslim Arabs have a right to their own lands and their own beliefs. But looking @ current Israeli policy- and the heavy-handed tactics employed by Ariel Shiron- well, why not change that flag of theirs from the Star of David to a Swastika and be done with it.

Israel is an interesting historical irony.
There's a big difference, I think, between learning your history.
And learning FROM your history.

Of course we in Ireland should consider this too.

bloggs

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
What the 5th largest army in the world.
In alliance with THE largest army in the world.

And let's not forget one of the most sophisitcated and ruthless intelligence networks in existence.



No- they planned to but the Mossad heard of it first- and Israel decided to act accordingly.

Which was their way of saying- you all hate us, we've been persecuted, we've been murdered in our millions, we've been beaten we've been spat upon and beaten up in the streets of every town and every city we have ever been in. Now we finally have a place to call our own- now you want to take that away from us too?

Oh no, Mr. Nassar, we know what you're up to. We'll hit you first- because now, now we got an army and now- nobody's ever gonna **** with us again!

In this respect? Oh I totally agree. From the post-war 'oh those poor 6-million holocaust victims' POV- I can understand that.

And for the hostility of surrounding nations- I can understand why they're pissed too. But the territories they gained still remain an issue of contention. Still form the source of the problems we have today. And Israel doesn't really want to discuss it- so GW gladly puts his 1/2-assed "Roadmap to Peace" back in his presidential glove compartment.

To be honest I think both Jews and Muslim Arabs have a right to their own lands and their own beliefs. But looking @ current Israeli policy- and the heavy-handed tactics employed by Ariel Shiron- well, why not change that flag of theirs from the Star of David to a Swastika and be done with it.

Israel is an interesting historical irony.
There's a big difference, I think, between learning your history.
And learning FROM your history.

Of course we in Ireland should consider this too.

If the yanks cared so much about the jews in 1948, why didn't they give them Texas or somewhere to live? Why put them in a place where nobody likes them? I don't think this 'lands of our fathers rubbish', if that is the case, i would say that my family 3000 year ago were living in Southern Germany, so i should be given land there.

Zombrex

I don't think fluffer was asking if you would invade Israel (not a good idea) but would you fight against Israel.

*** I say I wouldn't, but I don't know if I was on the ground would I change my mind. It would be very hard to suppress my anger towards Israel if the army had just bombed my house, or killed my neighbours 2 year old daughter.

I would hope that I would try and find a peacefull means to end the war. I would also hope that I would have the clarity to realise that me fighting and killing Israeli troops actually doesn't achieve anything other than satisifying a lust for revenage.

But the helplessness of a Palestinian on the ground must be overwhelming, especially now Israel has stepped up its campaign and started building that stupid fence around Palestinine.

Still it is hard to preach from the safety of an internet cafe in Dublin.

I don't think this 'lands of our fathers rubbish', if that is the case, i would say that my family 3000 year ago were living in Southern Germany, so i should be given land there.

If you listen to Jews living in the Settlements the divine right to be there seems to be a very powerful motivation for moving to Israel. They seem to genuinely believe that God has blessed the land for Jews only, and that it is their land, even if there are others living on it.

Kinda hard to argue against the will of God

Typedef

Originally posted by bloggs
anyway with Israel having the Nuke (thanks America)

It's the French you should be thanking for that one.
http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/israel/nuke.html

FRANCE'S CONTRIBUTION

Franco-Israeli nuclear cooperation is described in detail in the book "Les Deux Bombes" (1982) by French journalist Pierre Pean, who gained access to the official French files on Dimona. The book revealed that the Dimona's cooling circuits were built two to three times larger than necessary for the 26-megawatt reactor Dimona was supposed to be--proof that it had always been intended to make bomb quantities of plutonium. The book also revealed that French technicians had built a plutonium extraction plant at the same site. According to Pean, French nuclear assistance enabled Israel to produce enough plutonium for one bomb even before the 1967 Six Day War. France also gave Israel nuclear weapon design information.

In 1986, Francis Perrin, high commissioner of the French atomic energy agency from 1951 to 1970, was quoted in the press as saying that France and Israel had worked closely together for two years in the late 1950s to design an atom bomb. Perrin said that the United States had agreed that the French scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project could apply their knowledge at home provided they kept it secret. But then, Perrin said, "We considered we could give the secrets to Israel provided they kept it a secret themselves." He added: "We thought the Israeli bomb was aimed against the Americans, not to launch it against America but to say 'if you don't want to help us in a critical situation we will require you to help us, otherwise we will use our nuclear bombs.'"

Back on topic. Yes, if I was Palestinian, I think it is highly likely I would be fighting Israel and most likely, I'd get killed doing it too, but, C'est la vie

no pun

Sand

Actually if you were Palestinian it would be statistically unlikely youd be fighting the Israelis given that a large proportion - some might even dare say the vast majority - of them attempt to carry out as normal as possible lives in an extremely abnormal situation.

And a generation ago it would have been plucky little Israel desperately fighting for its right to exist surrounded by hundreds of millions of hostile Arabs whod have been winning the romantic struggle popularity stakes.

I can say with almost certainty that had i been born yet, I would have joined the IRA that year.

So youd be off planning attacks like Warrington then?

LegacyUser

Originally posted by Sand

So youd be off planning attacks like Warrington then?

taken out of context, bit like me saying I take it from that quote you'd join the British army and go kill some Taigs ala bloody sunday

Sand

taken out of context, bit like me saying I take it from that quote you'd join the British army and go kill some Taigs ala bloody sunday

Ah , okay, what did fluffer mean then when he said hed join the IRA?

Are you of the belief that the IRA is some sort of social worker group that goes around and visits sick children in hospital, helps the elderly with their shopping and cleans up the rubbish lying on the street?

That IRA Im sure would be great to join. Theres some other group of rascals out there giving them a bad name by murdering people, bombing shopping streets and torturing those who cross them. Those werent the lads fluffer was planning on joining then I take it?

lodgepole

Originally posted by Sand
Ah , okay, what did fluffer mean then when he said hed join the IRA?

Are you of the belief that the IRA is some sort of social worker group that goes around and visits sick children in hospital, helps the elderly with their shopping and cleans up the rubbish lying on the street?

That IRA Im sure would be great to join. Theres some other group of rascals out there giving them a bad name by murdering people, bombing shopping streets and torturing those who cross them. Those werent the lads fluffer was planning on joining then I take it?

I believe he meant that if he was living in a country which he percieved was being oppressed by another nation, that he would fight for that country in any way he saw possible.

I don't believe he was under any illusions as to who the IRA were at the time.

And that's the point of the question. Would you join an illegal terrorist organisation if you felt that the organisation was fighting for a worthy cause, and that there was no other way to win.

sceptre

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
What the 5th largest army in the world.

The Russians?

In alliance with THE largest army in the world

The Chinese?

Reserve troops don't count as both Koreas screw up the list

Haven't we been there before?

ArphaRima

As for my definition of the IRA. I mean in the traditional sense. Not in the murdering scumbag sense of today or even recent times. (I know they are terrorists but I hate that word now. Used for propaganda so much recently that it means nothing.) There is no organisation that matches the description, but early IRA and IRB might fit.

If I was a Palestinian I would probably be a member of a paramilitary organisation.

And no, I would not condone another Warrington-esque bomb. There are enough Tim Parry's in this world.

A military is a military target.
Politicians are military targets.(Those that command the troops).
Marketplaces, shopping centres, schoolyards, streets, or houses are not.

Would you join an illegal terrorist organisation if you felt that the organisation was fighting for a worthy cause, and that there was no other way to win.

-Exactly. Our statehood was born in a baptism of fire, with our firsy leaders walking the streets of our towns with rifle in hand. We stood against the world's greatest power and our closest (geographic) neighbour. Why can't they?

Actually if you were Palestinian it would be statistically unlikely youd be fighting the Israelis given that a large proportion - some might even dare say the vast majority - of them attempt to carry out as normal as possible lives in an extremely abnormal situation.

How many Irishmen, statistically fought in the 1916 Rising? It may have been a complete and total failure, unpopular by en-large, and caused hardships on the ordinary man, but eventually due to the brutality of the British response, brought the nation to their sides. Many more fought in the next battles. We seemed to make it.

And a generation ago it would have been plucky little Israel desperately fighting for its right to exist surrounded by hundreds of millions of hostile Arabs whod have been winning the romantic struggle popularity stakes.

Israel did not exist. Refugees with European and American support (tanks, rifles, money) invaded invaded the then broadly ill-defined state of Palestine, during a wave of collective european guilt. If refugees appeared on the west coast of Ireland with a massed military force, would we not simultaneously fight them and call on surrounding allies to help?

If the yanks cared so much about the jews in 1948, why didn't they give them Texas or somewhere to live?

If I remember rightly the Jewish people were, during their own ideological crisis post-war, offered a huge swath of land in South Africa as a nation. The Balfour declaration and lobbying by powerful jewish communities in England ended that.

Before someone says it: To be anti-Israeli is not to be anti-jewish, or, as the american-accented spokespeople like to call dissenters; Nazis.

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by fluffer


If I was a Palestinian I would probably be a member of a paramilitary organisation.

And no, I would not condone another Warrington-esque bomb. There are enough Tim Parry's in this world.

A military is a military target.
Politicians are military targets.(Those that command the troops).
Marketplaces, shopping centres, schoolyards, streets, or houses are not.

I'm not sure how you are able to reconcile these points of view. . . . Generally, members of palestinian paramilitary organisations are not hugely focused on military targets. Generally, they strap lots of explosives to their chest. . . board a bus and let it go . . . killing whoever happens to be on the bus. Generally, they do not distinguish between military and civilians but believe that all jews should be killed . ..

Just like the IRA on many occasions showed that it didn't particularly distinguish between civilians and military targets . . . . now that we have a certain type of "peace" in Northern Ireland we are in grave danger of allowing history to be rewritten. . . Fluffer seems to equate the activities of the IRA in the seventies to those of republicans in 1916 . . . . those of us who have read Irish history and who grew up in the 70's and 80's should no better and it is our responsibility not to let this happen.

In answer to the question posed . . . Would I fight Israel ? ? Yes, politically . . . democratically. . . Imagine how much more strength Yasser Arafat would have on the world stage if palestinian terrorists stopped killing Israelis.

LegacyUser

Originally posted by hallelujajordan
Fluffer seems to equate the activities of the IRA in the seventies to those of republicans in 1916 . . . .

Uhh, I hear this alot -- sorry hallelujajordan but there's no difference between the two, all just guy's who took up arms cause they didn't like the current political situation, if you think the old IRA were all nice guys who only killed soldiers you are wrong, god knows how many Irishmen trying to raise their kids were killed cause they were policemen, and that nasty business of a bullet in the back of the head because they thought you were an informer was goin on too.

bonkey

gents - we're getting a 'bit' off-topic here.

If you want to continue discussing teh IRA, please take it to a seperate thread.

LegacyUser

Originally posted by bonkey
gents - we're getting a 'bit' off-topic here.

If you want to continue discussing teh IRA, please take it to a seperate thread.

come on bonkey its not that off-topic, check the original post again

quote

I am Irish. In 1969, at the height of the troubles, the Irish army was sent to the border of Northern Ireland. This sparked a panic in the north that the Republic of Ireland was about to invade.

"It is clear also that the Irish government can no longer stand by and see innocent people injured or perhaps worse" - Jack Lynch

I can say with almost certainty that had i been born yet, I would have joined the IRA that year.

quote

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by bananayoghurt
Uhh, I hear this alot -- sorry hallelujajordan but there's no difference between the two, all just guy's who took up arms cause they didn't like the current political situation, if you think the old IRA were all nice guys who only killed soldiers you are wrong, god knows how many Irishmen trying to raise their kids were killed cause they were policemen, and that nasty business of a bullet in the back of the head because they thought you were an informer was goin on too.

Not sure if Bonkey's going to let me answer this ? ?

Actually, I agree with you. . . . I don't really believe that the old-timers were all that much more justified in their paramilitary activities although the situations are very different and I'm not sure such blanket statements are valid (bigger argument . . . not relevant to this thread) . . . my point was simply that gradually the activities of the IRA during the 70's 80's and 90's are becoming more accepted . . . due in no small part to Sinn Feins constant attempts to rewrite the history books. . .

bonkey

Originally posted by bananayoghurt
come on bonkey its not that off-topic, check the original post again

Yes - it is - and no - I already did, thanks.

The thread started with a question : What would you do in a certain situation.

What is being discussed here is not that question, nor anything to do with the listed topic, but rather a completely tangential discussion which has sprung from the answer offered by fluffer to his/her own question.

If you want to make a comment on someone's offered reason, then thats fine. If you want clarification on something offered as a reason, thats fine too.

If you want to discuss the rightness / wrongness of the reasons, and head off on a tangent as to the rights/wrongs of the IRA now vs/ then, or terrorism in general - which is what appears to be happening - then take it to another thread.

jc

dathi1

So youd be off planning attacks like Warrington then?

Or you could kill an 11 year old boy yesterday in Hebron...."by mistake":rolleyes:

Im probably showing my ignorance on the subject, but didn't Syria, and Egypt invade Israel in 1967 (3 day war), not sure if that had anything to do with the Arabs living in Israel.

No it was a "bush" style pre-emtive strike beacuse of Arab troop movements.

Generally, members of palestinian paramilitary organisations are not hugely focused on military targets. Generally, they strap lots of explosives to their chest. . . board a bus and let it go . . . killing whoever happens to be on the bus. Generally, they do not distinguish between military and civilians but believe that all jews should be killed . ..

Don't judge a people who have been living under one of the worst occupation atrocities in human history. The "biblical rights to land settlers" make what we have experienced in Irish history look like a tea party.

dumb larry

Originally posted by dathi1
Don't judge a people who have been living under one of the worst occupation atrocities in human history. The "biblical rights to land settlers" make what we have experienced in Irish history look like a tea party.

Why not judge them? You can't constantly criticize israel and ignore the faults of the palestinians completely. For example: their school textbooks contain much dodgy anti-semitic sentiment [1], they treat homosexuals like dirt [2] and there is large public support for those who purposely target and blow up Jewish civilians. Palestinian youths are encouraged (officially) to engage in combat with Israeli soldiers and their security forces frequently torture detainees [3].

[1] http://www.edume.org/reports/
[2] http://www.indegayforum.org/articles/varnell97.html
[3] http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/11/pa1130.htm

To me, this seems reason enough to be somewhat critical.
(and I'm not saying Israel cannot be criticized by the way)

Edit: Sorry about the double post, I was trying to swap urls 1 and 2 around since they were mixed up and somehow i posted again accidently.

PH01

I'm going off to fight the Israelis. I'm going to fight the Arabs - well, bully for you boyoh!

Yeah, going off to fight is going to solve everything.

You'll go off to fight and come back in 20 years wanting peace. Why don't you just safe us all the trouble and start talking now.

dathi1

Why not judge them? You can't constantly criticize israel and ignore the faults of the palestinians completely.

You can criticize any body who invades occupies and murders on mass the native inhabitants of any country.

they treat homosexuals like dirt

The Christian, Jewish and Islamic (all monotheistic faiths) attitude to homosexuals is irrelevant to the current and on going massacres in Palestine.

and there is large public support for those who purposely target and blow up Jewish civilians

to be honest..I don't know how I'd react psychologically to living in the hell hole that is Gaza under the most oppressive death delivering machine that our friends in Washington helps to the tune of 10 billion a year...so from the safety of my two car carpeted house in Dublin...I wont even begin to judge them.

ArphaRima

Generally, members of palestinian paramilitary organisations are not hugely focused on military targets. Generally, they strap lots of explosives to their chest. . . board a bus and let it go . . . killing whoever happens to be on the bus.

The current Intifada involves more than just suicide bombings, using your word if I may; generally they are kalashnikov wielding soldiers who work in Israeli factories during the day. The difference is that suicide bombings are what make the news.
Suicide bombings are the product of complete hopelessness and despair.
When Israeli bulldozers flatten your village, and soldiers imprison your father and kill your brother, with no resistance making a dent on them, what do you think happens when a suicide bombing shocks the world, halts an Israeli advance, and commands a response? And no I don't condone it, I just understand why they happen.

You'll go off to fight and come back in 20 years wanting peace. Why don't you just safe us all the trouble and start talking now.

Do you think for a second that Israel would listen to palestinian leaders at all if there wasn't a war going on?

Israel was built on stolen land. They know they will have to fight to keep it. Therefore the Palestinians know they have to fight to get it back.

Even now Palestinian statehood is a sham. Their leader is a prisoner in his own country.
A military campaign with political leadership is how to negotiate. Unlike Britain and Ireland the enemy leadership did not live in our country, the occupying forces did not call our land home, and most of all, our religions did not both involve the land as our most holy lands.

I feel that Israel will be a 100-200 year blip in the history books. Too many countries resent their presence, and their only ally is embarrassed by them. Once America declines, Israel will vanish.

bloggs

I think change has to happen within Israel, a new state (called something apart from Israel) should be made, and it should be secular, it should include the West Bank and Gaza and should consist of a powersharing government. But i strongly doubt that will ever happen.

There are parties in Israel who wish for a secular state, the US should be looking towards these people and should be incouraging these, instead of Sharon the terrorist.

dumb larry

Originally posted by dathi1
You can criticize any body who invades occupies and murders on mass the native inhabitants of any country.

I hope I didn't give the impression I said anything to contrary.

The Christian, Jewish and Islamic (all monotheistic faiths) attitude to homosexuals is irrelevant to the current and on going massacres in Palestine.

There are many places with a mix of those faiths where the state won't torture homosexuals. The P.A. administered territories is not one of them, Israel is. But I suppose you don't want to judge the palestinians in this regard. Fair enough.

to be honest..I don't know how I'd react psychologically to living in the hell hole that is Gaza under the most oppressive death delivering machine that our friends in Washington helps to the tune of 10 billion a year...so from the safety of my two car carpeted house in Dublin...I wont even begin to judge them.

Do you think the Palestinian Authority is in any way part of the problem? Or Hamas? Al aqsa? Hezbollah? Islamic Jihad? You know, these groups could try to engage with Israel politically instead of blowing up its civilians.

bonkey

Originally posted by dumb larry
But I suppose you don't want to judge the palestinians in this regard. Fair enough.

No - he said it was irrelevant to the current discussion, which it would appear to be.

The topic was supposed to be what you would do if you were Palestinian - would you "join up" and fight, or what? If you can see how the differing treatment of gays is in any way relevant to that discussion, please enlighten us. Otherwise, if you wish to discuss it, please take it to another thread.

Not every thread about Israel/Palestine has to become the same old "lets-cover-every-angle" flavourless discussion. It should be possible to discuss aspects of it, and if we can't then the thread should be locked.

jc

The Beer Baron

More trouble concerning Bush's Roadmap to Peace

ArphaRima

Let me just refocus our minds on the question as not many people are actually answering it, before, or while, discussing it.

Would you, if you were a Palestinian, take up a rifle against Israel?

dathi1

Do you think the Palestinian Authority is in any way part of the problem? Or Hamas? Al aqsa? Hezbollah? Islamic Jihad? You know, these groups could try to engage with Israel politically instead of blowing up its civilians.

They actually called a ceasefire......can you believe it a ceasefire!!..These mad Islamic groups (homosexual hating above) with their mind set on God and pushing the Jews into the sea actually called a ceasefire! Regardless of their motives, the fact that they even contemplated a ceasefire considering it was forced upon them by another invader of their brothers and sisters in Iraq to me is unbelievable. They made Fatah look like the extremists...and whilst all this is going on the butcher of shantila and Jenin continued his assassination policy on their leaders ..of course much to the distress of Bush (if he knows where Israel is) and his Christian coalition in Washington...I think they expressed "concern".

Would you, if you were a Palestinian, take up a rifle against Israel?

If my mother and father were forced off their land by mass immigration, biblical settlers and the worlds first terror groups ...Yes I probably would.