Operation Palestinian Freedom

dumb larry

Originally posted by dathi1
They actually called a ceasefire......can you believe it a ceasefire!!..These mad Islamic groups (homosexual hating above) with their mind set on God and pushing the Jews into the sea actually called a ceasefire!

Yeah, hudna, meaning 'Time to rearm ourselves'. A shame they had to ruin it by blowing up a busload of civilians.

They made Fatah look like the extremists...and whilst all this is going on the butcher of shantila and Jenin continued his assassination policy on their leaders

You mean the policy of arresting their leaders. Mohammed Sidr was killed resisting arrest, and I think it's understandable that Israel would want him arrested, considering he was responsible for organizing attacks on israeli civilians.

I'm not sure what I'd do if I was a palestinian... could I be male/female? heterosexual/homosexual?. I'd like to think I wouldn't take to fighting.

If Palestine tried to invade israel there would be a massacre, hahaha

Palestine did try to invade Israel. They lost. Hence the occupation.

Israel was built on stolen land. They know they will have to fight to keep it. Therefore the Palestinians know they have to fight to get it back.

Crap. Israel was built on land left by the British and authorised by the UN. As was Palestine. While you're shouting that ISrael should loose the land, you're also showing that Palestine should not exist in tandem.

Once America declines, Israel will vanish

I certainly hope not. Its the only civilised nation in the Middle east.

As for my definition of the IRA. I mean in the traditional sense. Not in the murdering scumbag sense of today or even recent times. (I know they are terrorists but I hate that word now. Used for propaganda so much recently that it means nothing.) There is no organisation that matches the description, but early IRA and IRB might fit.

I'd never compre the IRB and the IRA. Different situations entirely. Its like comparing Rome, and the US. Too many differences in timelines, technology, culture etc. Shouldn't be done.

Israel did not exist. Refugees with European and American support (tanks, rifles, money) invaded invaded the then broadly ill-defined state of Palestine, during a wave of collective european guilt.

You might want to re-check your history. When Britain left their colonies in the Middle East they gave areas to the Arabs and to the ISraelis. Thats how palestine and Israel came into existance.

As for the tanks and other wespons, leading up to the war, Israel suffered embargos in relation to weapons, whereas the Arabs didn't. The Arabs were better equipped. The Israeli's were just better trained ( after a large number being veterns from WW2).

Six Day War of 1967 - Israel surprise attacks Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq. Wins

True to a certain extent. What you're forgetting was the buildup of arabic troops etc on the Israeli borders prior to Israel's suprise attack. There was every intention by the Arab nations to invade.

The arab nations had more men, teanks, aircraft etc. The Israelis were lucky to win.

Funny thing is that Israel has given back huge areas of land back to the arab nations, even though they didn't need to. They did it to promote peace. Palestinians don't want peace.

Try not to be so blind that you don't see the way the Arab nations have acted. I can see that Israel has done wrongs in the past and admit it. However supporters of palestine, and those that always bring up the 6 day war, always forget that from its creation, the arabs constantly tried to kill every israeli in sight. We are talking genocide. At least the Israelis have said they don't want to wipe the arabs off the face of teh planet.....................

Typedef

Originally posted by dumb larry
Yeah, hudna, meaning 'Time to rearm ourselves'. A shame they had to ruin it by blowing up a busload of civilians.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this.

But Israel occupies Palestine and delibratley colonises Palestinian land, this if 'offical' action perpitrated by the State of Israel, as opposed to the non-Offiical action of Palestinian paramilitaries.

What you're attempting to do is rationalise Israeli brutality (official State brutality and Religion based apartheid), because Palestinian paramilitary groups take action against Israelis.

That logic would imply the UK should invade Ireland and colonise Ireland with UK citizens, because the IRA commited acts of terrorism in the UK.

So you are attempting to hold the entire State of Palestine accountable, for groups in Palestine that the State of Palestine (as an entity) does not control.

What a ..... balanced view.

So you are attempting to hold the entire State of Palestine accountable, for groups in Palestine that the State of Palestine (as an entity) does not control.

Just as the US is holding the whole world accountable for Sept 11, and their "war on terror". Every nation that is not of Western origin is suspect. Yup, very balanced.

bug

I certainly hope not. Its the only civilised nation in the Middle east.

With reference to Israel, are you serious?

With reference to Israel, are you serious?

In comparison to every other nation, definetly. But thats my personal opinion. who else is there?

dathi1

Crap. Israel was built on land left by the British and authorised by the UN. As was Palestine. While you're shouting that ISrael should loose the land, you're also showing that Palestine should not exist in tandem.

even more crap...When the Birts pulled out (as everywhere else)..Israel was founded by mass immigration from Europe and the US backed up by Terror groups which decimated local Palestinian Arabs who lived on the land for centuries. as a matter of fact you could say the Israeli state was founded on terrorism.

dathi1

I'm not sure what I'd do if I was a palestinian... could I be male/female? heterosexual/homosexual?. I'd like to think I wouldn't take to fighting.

whatever points you made about Palestine and Israel you sure twisted it in a unusual direction.

even more crap...When the Birts pulled out (as everywhere else)..Israel was founded by mass immigration from Europe and the US backed up by Terror groups which decimated local Palestinian Arabs who lived on the land for centuries. as a matter of fact you could say the Israeli state was founded on terrorism.

Oh i agree. the Israelis used terror groups against the arabs. But Israel was in the process of being created at this time, as was palestine. Both teh Arabs and the Israelis used terror groups with the aim of weakening the opposition. But Israel, as with palestine was founded by the UN Recognition & US intervention.

I freely admit that Israel used terror groups. Can you just as freely admit that the Arabs were not totaly free from guilt during this time? or that the Arabs were not intending on the invasion of Israel prior to the 6 Day war?

As for Palestinians being there prior to israel, i can easily say teh same abt the state of Israel being there in ancient time. Personally, i'd prefer to keep such talk out of the conversation simply because it has no real bearing. The reality comes in when Britain left the region.

dathi1

As for Palestinians being there prior to israel, i can easily say teh same abt the state of Israel being there in ancient time. Personally, i'd prefer to keep such talk out of the conversation simply because it has no real bearing.

No no...my argument isn't about ancient lands or kings and queens... its about 20th/ 21st century ideals and in this situation a native population being moved and murdered on mass (regardless of Jews being moved from other countries) from their houses, towns and villages because of the holocaust and whatever other excuse the Americans could think of. As for Arab terror at the time ..it had a long way to catch up on the stern gang etc.

Typedef

As for Palestinians being there prior to israel, i can easily say teh same abt the state of Israel being there in ancient time. Personally, i'd prefer to keep such talk out of the conversation simply because it has no real bearing.

Yes but, Israel as a State effectively authorises, exponenciates and encourages modern day apartheid against the Palestinians.

I'm not saying terrorism is ok, what I am saying is that between the two sides, it's Israel (as a State, a a conglomeration of governmental institutions, supposedly based on pluralist democracy) that (a) occupies Palestine (b) colonises Palestine (c) operates class based disjunction for access to civil rights based on religion and ethnicity.

Palestine as a state does not occupy nor attack Israel, sure, para and I emphasise para-military groups attack Israel, but, even if one accepts the 'defence' premis for Israeli attacks in Palestine, the fact that Palestinian terrorism takes place is a direct result of a) Israeli military strikes b) Israeli military occupation and c) on going Israeli settlement of Palestinian lands.

How can you possibly label Israel as a civilised place when as a State.. it commits such acts?

Or are you trolling now?

bloggs

Israel and the US seem to be the only countries in the World that can oppress people (who are not their own) and get away with it. Frankly i believe that if Israel, rounded up every Palistanian and murdered everyone of them, the US still wouldn't do anything. Sure when General Sharon lead his army into Lebonan in 1982, and helped in the murder of 12,000 (i think it was) refugees, the US called for 'restraint', bloody hell! More were killed by Sharon than by Bin Ladens crooks, and the US didn't lift a finger!!! Someone please point out to me who the real terrorists in the Middle East are??:mad:

dumb larry

Originally posted by Typedef
But Israel occupies Palestine and delibratley colonises Palestinian land, this if 'offical' action perpitrated by the State of Israel, as opposed to the non-Offiical action of Palestinian paramilitaries.

I don't support the idea of a 'greater israel', I don't agree with israel's present landgrabbing.

So you are attempting to hold the entire State of Palestine accountable, for groups in Palestine that the State of Palestine (as an entity) does not control.

It's difficult to know what to make of the P.A to be honest. As far as I can see Arafat seems to make little effort to promote tolerance, or to reduce support for the paramilitary groups, or to control the groups to any great degree.

OK, we're off topic. Best call it quits.

bonkey

Originally posted by bloggs
Israel and the US seem to be the only countries in the World that can oppress people (who are not their own) and get away with it.

Far from it.

Russia in Chechnya.
China in Tibet.

I'm sure there's others.

And yes, I've given up. There would appear to be as much hope of this thread staying on topic as there is of a peaceful solution being found to the Palestine/Israel problem before the weekend is out.

jc