Relevant languages to learn and IT courses

happydays · 10-09-2003 12:37pm #1

Hi all
How relevant a language is COBOL.
Also, has anyone done either Trinitys Bsc in Business & Information systems or DBS versions nightcourses.
Finally, would it be recommended to not bother with a degree and just go for professional exams, which ones?
Sorry question overload.
cheers for any help provided

McGintyMcGoo · 10-09-2003 1:35pm

I did the evening BSc in Information Systems years ago in Trinity! As far as I remember, we did COBOL in 1st Year under the heading "Programming methods using COBOL". Like most languages that you do in college, you will not become an expert in them from what you learn there. It's just an introduction into programming and in my opinion, would suit business students best!

Finally, if you can stick it out, a degree is what you should be aiming for. It's the key into quite a lot of job interviews nowadays!

Hope this helps!

mneylon · 10-09-2003 1:48pm

You should also try to get practical experience. We get CVs from people with plenty of theory, but if they do not have any practical knowledge they won't be of any use to us.

Evil Phil · 10-09-2003 1:50pm

I would go for the degree if I were you. The professional exams like Microsoft certs etc. are only relevant for a period in time and can be obtained quite easily. A degree is for life (not just for hogswatch night) and the course work involves practicals, not just studying for exams.

Although a lot of the developers on this forum never went to college, I'd imagine in todays work place it has a huge advantage when looking for that first job.

mneylon · 10-09-2003 1:53pm

I'd agree 100% with EvilPhil. If you have a degree it will always be relevant.

Stark · 10-09-2003 2:09pm

COBOL itself is pretty much a dead language as far as I'm concerned (unless accountancy firms and stuff still use it which I don't know). The more important thing to learn in first year however is not the language it's the principles of programming.

Typedef · 10-09-2003 5:59pm

COBOL is still in use in all those grinding old servers in Banks, Government, the Public Service, just about any large scale organisation which has a long long, history of technical conservatism.

Yup, lots of large organisations get stuck in the past and thus end up running damn old machines, so for that reason, COBOL programmers are still, employable.

From what I've herd COBOL is a horrid language and has been known, in 40% of cases to cause the programmer in question to drag his/her/it's knuckles along the ground whilst walking, and to only answer to
"tag - neanderthalais".[1]

[1]Fact my vary.

bonkey · 10-09-2003 7:07pm

Originally posted by Typedef
From what I've herd COBOL is a horrid language

Nothing horrid about it at all. Its just another language, which does what its intended to do extremely well.

But do continue knocking it....it will mean fewer COBOL programmers, which will make even my rusty COBOL skills highly valuable some day.

I know I've said it before, but a good attitude to approach programming with is :

"I am a programmer. I program. Language is incidental".

We all have stuff we prefer to program in, but at the end of the day, I'll do whatever I'm asked to do and that counts when it comes to salary renegotiation time

jc

Evil Phil · 10-09-2003 7:42pm

Aye bonkey, code is bricks and mortar. Its what you build with it, and how, that counts.

Typedef · 11-09-2003 11:21am

But do continue knocking it....it will mean fewer COBOL programmers

Fine, I'll admit to being a bigoted twat.

I'm not sure if it's a) because the language is crap (I don't know if it is, I've been told it is, but, I've never used it) or that b) there are easier/better/more powerful languages to use, but, there are few to no, new systems being developed in COBOL.
COBOL programming by and large, is maintenance/extension of 'already' existing systems, most likely old systems, so in four years, there will be, fewer, not more, COBOL programming jobs.

So, if you have COBOL, great. If somebody will pay you to learn it, better else COBOL based programming probably isn't a great area to invest your time, into, getting into.

And, lets not forget the neanderthal factor.....

Trojan · 11-09-2003 1:02pm

There's a hell of a lot more COBOL out there than people think. Every time an airline ticket is bought, or bank transaction occurs, it's more than likely some transaction processing system running COBOL.

http://www.sysprog.net/cobol.html

Oh, and mainframes are still around too (hate to break it to you guys).

Al.

SkepticOne · 11-09-2003 6:27pm

Don't worry too much about what languages are studied in the degree course. What you may well find is that in your first job there will be some obscure language that you will have to pick up quickly in order to get something achieved.

Although it is likely that something like java may be used as a "teaching language" in a degree course, it is only a means to an end. The intention would be that you would be able to apply the principles to any programming language.

If you do a night degree, try and get your foot in the door of an IT related job in any capacity.

jmcc · 11-09-2003 9:50pm

I'd tend to agree with Evil Phil. A degree is proof that someone has the capability to learn and some companies, especially those looking at the long term value this. However a lot of companies would tend to value operational experience highly.

The degree would give a foundation for being a programmer but it really depends on the aptitude of the individual. Once you have a good theoretical foundation, you can pick up any new computer language rapidly. Therefore worrying about the choice of language is unnecessary. COBOL is an early computer language and you can often see the same constructs and ideas being used in other later languages. Learning these early languages may not make sense at the time but when you have to pick up a new language, it will become relevant. Also the increasing rarity of skilled COBOL programmers means that it is a seller's market.

Regards...jmcc

secret_squirrel · 11-09-2003 10:32pm

Originally posted by Trojan
There's a hell of a lot more COBOL out there than people think. Every time an airline ticket is bought, or bank transaction occurs, it's more than likely some transaction processing system running COBOL.

http://www.sysprog.net/cobol.html

Oh, and mainframes are still around too (hate to break it to you guys).

Al.

Most airline tickets are processed on mainframe assembler still. (for speed)
Some of the newer stuff is unix C maybe even a little Java.
But the offline stuff can still be Cobol.

But you are right there is still ****e loads of cobol out there. And someones gotta maintain it. And dont forget some maintenance projects I have been on have both dwarfed and required far more expertise than new developments.

Look in any major enterprise thats over 10 years old - there will be one or more Mainframes involved. M/F still tends to be a major communications hub and data source. (Infact IBM's m/f sales are going up I believe)

My advice if you learn java and web development - dont expect any major career advances or job opportunities. Everyone and his aunt has spent the last 5-7 years learning it giving us thousands of dodgy Web developers and a very few good ones.

If you want to stand out from the crowd - Take any chance to learn Oracle or SQL server. Database developers are always in demand since most Projects require a database backend.

Also OLAP (Essbase/MS OLAP) is a nice niche (althought VERY niche in ireland UK is much better in my experience) market. ETL tools are another good one. Bear in mind that IT Development covers a whole wider range of choices than just languages. You could be making a good living as a junior CONsultant in 18 months

If you're of a more technical bent try systems programming/admin on Unix/Linux nice steady well paying jobs usually. ditto for Database Admins.

One more thing some of the ppl here have touched on - the choice of language is less relevant than a lot of people realise, the basic principles of programming remain the same whatever the language. If I remember rightly the average programmer spends less than 30% of their time programming. Learn the ancillary skills like project management, technical design, testing procedures they are the skills that will help you deliver your project on time more often than not.

Hope this splurge helps

Typedef · 13-09-2003 3:39pm

Thing is.

The big old clunky IBM mainframes are being a) undercut by x86 machines which are relatively powerful and exponentially cheaper b) being phased out by IBM in favour of Linux machines and c) being old, need maintenance and eventual replacement, at which point, the Java/VB => SQL path on a few servers bought from HP or Dell, becomes much more attractive for an organisation.

So in banks, Java | VB & SQL has made inroads into the traditional COBOL/Clunky big blue machine markets.

I agree, there is a wealth of maintenance work in COBOL, and the biggest most conservative organisations, will be some of the last one's to move away from COBOL, but, most will, in all likelyhood move to SQL and Java or VB, at some point.

If' you're a halfway decent programmer, it shouldn't take more then a few weeks (or less) to get familiar with COBOL, if need be.

Hell, it might even be worth looking into, since there is a market for it. I do, recommend investing in a good warm cave to live in though if you do decide to become a COBOL programmer..... a good sturdy club wouldn't go astray either!

Typedef · 13-09-2003 3:54pm

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
You could be making a good living as a junior CONsultant in 18 months

I believe the technical term is
"conslutant".

RicardoSmith · 14-09-2003 1:27pm

I think with all the updates and security fixes that are doing the rounds plus the unreliability of lot of newer technologies. Lots of places are actually looking towards the older more reliable systems like AS400's again. They last place I was in just bought a couple of them. That siad they are also looking at running Java/Linux/Apache to replace their current NT boxes and not going the .Net server route at all. At the end of the day if something costs you more money and you get a worst product for that money, it makes no sense in continuing down that route.

secret_squirrel · 17-09-2003 11:54pm

Originally posted by Typedef
I believe the technical term is
"conslutant".

Oh and required reading if you want to get involved in the IT industry (or most big corporates) is Dilbert cartoons by scott adams.

(My favourite strip of the moment

Dogbert - " I'm your new consultant - I'm here to con and insult you.")

Good luck in what ever you do happydays

ZENER · 27-09-2003 1:33am

Anybody got any opinions on the degree course in DCU. In particular the open learning course (www.oscail.ie). I hope to start this in October, should I ?

Cobol is part of this course too and I've started learning this language from a couple of books aimed at beginners, the vibes I'm getting here are that it's a waste of time. Although I accept the learn for discipline and experience train of thought I dont want to waste my time . . I'm nearly 40 for Gods Sake !!!

Any info appreciated.

Tinky

Typedef · 27-09-2003 2:51am

Nah tinky.

For all you know one day... some recruitment moron could ring you up and say "Object Oriented" and then say "Cobol" and before you have time to say "But Cobol isn't..." said moron then says.
"47,500".

You agree... and we castigate you as a slut.

Works for me.

Relevant languages to learn and IT courses

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