Is it wrong for Irishmen and women to join foreign Armed Forces!

Boston

wasn't actually a troll, i thought it was the army rangers, must have been their predesesors. Three irish men where nominated for the highest american military honors for their assitance. But dev blocked it to protect our neutrality

Victor

Originally posted by Boston
wasn't actually a troll, i thought it was the army rangers, must have been their predesesors. Three irish men where nominated for the highest american military honors for their assitance. But dev blocked it to protect our neutrality

Perhaps you are confusing members of the American and Irish armed forces?

Vader

we have like 40 companies in the arms industry and are intelligence is better than you might think. since 1998 the gardi have infiltrated 96% of IRA units

MOS

How the **** do u know that???????

Qadhafi

I can understand why the thing wants to serve in a proper army. The equipment is improving all the time, but it’s the governments that’s holding the DF back and I don’t know why, were on the same side as the US and UK.

After the Second World War the DF said it wanted modern fighters from the UK, since we were neutral during the war they said no. The Americans offered us ALL the fighters we wanted FOR FREE !! Guess what? We refused.

There was a contract out for 5 new medium lift helicopters recently. Sikorsky offered S-92 and offset the deal with €100 in business to Ireland. So we cancelled the deal due to budget constraints. The other 2 companies were complaining about the late offset but would have probably offered us something similar if we re-ran the competition.

As a friendly nation we would get military hardware at next to nothing prices. Why do we have to rely on the RAF (Royal Air Force) to patrol our sky’s?

Take a helicopter S-92, worth what €25million and will be still flying in 25 years time, a bargin! Buy it? No we rent heli’s for twice the price.

I know anyone who leaves the Irish Defence Force is probably due to 2 reasons:
Crap equipement
and a political establishment that doesnt know how to utilise the DF.

So what if you have to take the Oath, its just a silly text. Your still irish!

Irish Army Ranger Wing come 3rd

sceptre

Originally posted by Cabaal
I do not believe any self respecting Irish man/women would swear a oath to the Queen of england imho.

Are you aware of how many years after Irish independence the oath of allegiance to the British monarch was in place for all sitting TDs?

The queen is the titular head of state in the UK. That's about it really.

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by Vader
we have like 40 companies in the arms industry

Are you sure about that?

There were a few pants-wetting articles recently about how much 'dual-use' equipment is made here in our hi-tech sector. But if you look at the list of items categorised as such you realise that they probably include the computer you're using to post here, your mobile phone and your playstation among others.

Try taking a knitting needle on to an aeroplane nowadays and you'll quickly see how broadly the definition of 'dual use' is being interpreted. But you'd be hard pushed to call a knitting-needle manufacturer part of an indigenous arms industry.

Back on topic. Speaking as variously the grandson, great grandson and great nephew of seven men (that I know of) who fought in the British Army in either of the World Wars—five of whom died as a consequence—I think in today's globalised world a man has a right to become a mercenary for any army he so wishes. But he should hand back his original passport before he does so and should become responsible for the actions of the army he joins.

So if some Indian comes up and punches you in the face and says 'That's for the Amritsar massacre, you bastard!' remember, you're the bad guy.

Must be nearly the time to start the 'Would you wear a poppy?' debate for this year. November 11th approaches.

Turnip

The army would not be able to defend the country in standing battles but it is well suited to international peacekeeping roles and we're aware from our history that guerrilla warfare is the best form of defence. I think everyone should do some form of national service, for example, every 2 or 3 years an intensive 6 week course along the lines of SAS training, small semi-autonomous units, sniping, endurance, armoured vehicle demolition, everyone trained to be able to take command etc. Stuff we'd need in the (unlikely) event of an invasion but which would also be useful for instilling discipline, self-confidence and assertiveness in young people. But not drill. Drill is boring and pretty useless these days. Tom Barry's, General Giap's and Che Guevara's books on guerrilla warfare should be studied. I bet the Iraqis have studied Giap fairly well.

Theres no real need for a large well equipped standing army. Britain wouldn't allow an invasion of Ireland, since it has too much strategic value to them to have a semi-neutral county beside them.

And if it was Britain, then the Irish groups in the US, would likely force Britain out.

Ireland won't be invaded by anyone. We only need our army, for anti-terrorist actions, bodyguard duties, and extra manpower for policing / anti-rioting.

Hobart

Originally posted by Turnip
The army would not be able to defend the country in standing battles

How do you know that?

but it is well suited to international peacekeeping roles[

How do you know that? What would you know about the Peace Keeping roles the the Irish DF have(and still do) participated in and why are they so "well suited" as you say?

. I think everyone should do some form of national service, for example, every 2 or 3 years an intensive 6 week course along the lines of SAS training,

I presume your either messing, trolling or that you have no concept of what SAS training involves.:rolleyes:

the_syco

Originally posted by The thing
Once again Ireland will be the laughing stock of the EU when the ERRF is up and running with our lack of logistics and resupply capabilities.

It could be worse. We could be as bad as Britain. Britain who had faulty radio's, faulty weapons, fer gods sake, even the british career soldiers were unhappy with the carry-on.
Quote;

Tales of faulty equipment hampering troops' ability to do their job in warzones such as Afghanistan and Kosovo have added to the pressure.
The army's new SA80-A2 rifle, used by British forces in Afghanistan although they barely fired a shot, is reported to have suffered misfiring problems. Its predecessor was withdrawn after similar jamming problems. A leaked military report on the Kosovo campaign said the old Clansman radio system was so insecure that Serb forces and even the media were able to listen in to British army communications.

This was ongoing in Kosovo, Afganistein, and took a few lives before it got sorted.

=====
=====
The Irish Defence Forces Army Ranger Wing (ARW);

As part of the ongoing training the Unit conducts interchanges with Special Forces and Intervention Groups among which are The Royal Dutch Marines, the French GIGN, the Italian CIS, the German GSG9 and the Swedish SSG. Exchanges lead to international co-operation through mutual contact and evaluation of each others specialised skills. ARW individuals selected are of varying service within the Unit and specialise in areas such as diving, sniping, parachuting, medical or explosives.
Members of the ARW also take part in the Irish Defence Forces contribution to overseas Peacekeeping Missions around the world. Over the years these missions have included service in Lebanon, Bosnia, Cyprus, Iraq, Somalia and Western Sahara.

Info on the ARW

=====
=====

Finally, Thing, your joing the Brit Army at an easy time, as 10 years ago, they HAD to go on at least ONE tour or NI, were they lost AT LEAST one man per platoon.
Also, when you go, you stop being Irish.

You become a black and tan.
You become a TRAITOR

The Brigadier

I was shafted on this when I was younger. I was born in England and lived there until I was 12. I have an irish mother.

When I was leaving I made an application to join the RAF. I was turned down on the grounds that I had not lived the previous 3 years in the UK. As a result I was considered a security risk. Although an Irish national living in the UK for the previous 3 years would have been accepted at the time.

I was turned down afterwards by the Irish Air Corp on the grounds that I did not have Inter Cert Irish, at the time a minimum requirement.

Turnip

Originally posted by Hobart
How do you know that?

No airpower. No armour. No contest. That's not to say that elements of our army couldn't acquit themsleves quite well if they were attached to a large well equipped force. Zzzz. I'm in the FCA if you must know, though I haven't gone for a while. I'm not going to get into a childish 'I know more about the DF than you' spat. I've seen far too much of that. :rolleyes: I simply don't have time to go into the details of my training idea.

bonkey

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
I think in today's globalised world a man has a right to become a mercenary for any army he so wishes.

Has the right, or should have the right?

(In either case, it won't apply to Swiss men who are banned by treaty from being mercenaries for any foreign nation except the Vatican. )

But he should hand back his original passport before he does so and should become responsible for the actions of the army he joins.

I'd agree 100%. The passport should be returned upon leaving the army, obviously.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by the_syco
You become a TRAITOR

Can you show a single piece of Irish legislation which says that serving a foreign army is an act of treason, or when you say "traitor" are you implying something other than what the term actually means?

jc

Qadhafi

quote: but it is well suited to international peacekeeping roles

The DF trains for all kinds of missions and conventional warfare. Although the government sends Irish soldiers abroad on mainly U.N missions.


quote: I think everyone should do some form of national service, for example, every 2 or 3 years an intensive 6 week course along the lines of SAS training.

hahaha:D special forces training ? do you know how demanding that is? I would love to see some civil servents do a route march with a heavy bergin.

I couldnt call anyone joining the brits a trator. Anyone who leaves the DF is because its crap. As i mentioned, we could get a lot of hardware for next to nothing prices so its not the money that is the problem, we have the bod's that are willing. Its the government thats the problem. €100 - 200 million investment and more irish troops abroad would help remedy the DF and stop Irish people having to leave the DF in droves to serve in other armies.

Hobart

Originally posted by Turnip
No airpower. No armour. No contest. That's not to say that elements of our army couldn't acquit themsleves quite well if they were attached to a large well equipped force.

OK. Would you like to answer my question now. You said

The army would not be able to defend the country in standing battles

I believe you referenced the Army. Not the Air Force. So stop trying to avoid the issue and answer the question. And while your at it. What do you mean by no Armour?

Zzzz. I'm in the FCA if you must know,

Well done.

though I haven't gone for a while.

Obviously

I'm not going to get into a childish 'I know more about the DF than you' spat.

Stop avoiding the issue and answer the questions. I would actually call it mis-infored, as most of your spammy posts seem to be. So lets not be childish and back-up what you have said.

I've seen far too much of that. :rolleyes: I simply don't have time to go into the details of my training idea.

And yet you seem to have plenty of time to post drivel and complete inaccuracies on this and other threads. Why do you bother??:rolleyes:

Vader

gardi have infiltrated 96% of IRA units

I heard it or read it (from a credible source) when that staknife thing came out.

If you were Irish and serving the brits before 1998 you were a traitor because you would have been aiding a foreign army operating within soverign irish territory(the old version of articles 2 and 3)

Turnip

Originally posted by Qadhafi
hahaha:D special forces training ? do you know how demanding that is? I would love to see some civil servents do a route march with a heavy bergin.

Duh. :rolleyes: Obviously it wouldn't be so tough that only 1% could possibly complete it. I'm well aware of how grossly unfit Irish people are. However a little exercise and hard work wouldn't do any harm. Or maybe it would. The country would probably collapse from the shock.

Originally posted by Hobart
OK. Would you like to answer my question now. You said I believe you referenced the Army. Not the Air Force. So stop trying to avoid the issue and answer the question. And while your at it. What do you mean by no Armour?

ROFL. :ninja: So our DF would do ok in a standing battle as long as the nasty enemy didn't 'cheat' and use air superiority or armour or too much artillery or overwhelming numbers like what happens in the real world. By the way, 'armour' is standard military terminology for TANKS. Those 60 ton things with caterpillar tracks and bloody big 120mm guns. We don't have any TANKS.

Stop avoiding the issue and answer the questions. I would actually call it mis-infored, as most of your spammy posts seem to be. So lets not be childish and back-up what you have said.

LOL :cool: Why should anyone believe you have a brother in the cavalry? Prove it.

And yet you seem to have plenty of time to post drivel and complete inaccuracies on this and other threads. Why do you bother??:rolleyes:

This would appear to be the correct place for it.

Boston

so how many tanks do you think we should by, and how much of the pension reserve fund should be redirected towards killing people. We will never have a large enough army to defeat an invader in any conventional way. Yerrorisy tactics will be the only way. don't give the enemy a target. just look at iraq, and the number of troops needed and the cost

Qadhafi

Just to note:The DF recently purchased the Javelin anti armour missile. It defeats all main Main Battle Tanks (MBT's) including the Challenger and M1A2 Abram
Javelin

we should purchase enough MBTs to defend our Armoured Personnell Carriers (APC's), but if we went looking (like its ever going to happen) we get them at knock down prices.

Quote
Duh. Obviously it wouldn't be so tough that only 1% could possibly complete it. ......

Well why have an emphasis on the SAS? Why not say sport or the IRISH Army Reserve, but then again, if they seen what the DF has they might not be impressed.

No one is going to invade us, so i wouldnt worry about that. The only dispute is with Iceland about the oil i think. The main threat is overseas on duty where we dont have the proper equipment to defend our troops on the ground from say a charging Armour column

Hobart

Ah! Glad you could spare the time Tulip. Anyhow. Read your post and, as I expected, you failed to address a single issue I posed to you. So I'll try again:

Originally posted by Turnip
Duh. :rolleyes: Obviously it wouldn't be so tough that only 1% could possibly complete it. I'm well aware of how grossly unfit Irish people are. However a little exercise and hard work wouldn't do any harm. Or maybe it would. The country would probably collapse from the shock.

Well then don't reference the SAS. Why don't you say "like a nice walk in the park". Or better still why don't you just think about what your saying before you say it :rolleyes:

ROFL. :ninja: So our DF would do ok in a standing battle as long as the nasty enemy didn't 'cheat' and use air superiority or armour or too much artillery or overwhelming numbers like what happens in the real world.

Where did I say that? I'm just asking you wjere your evidence is for your previous statement that: (And I will repeat it for your benefit)b

The Army would not be able to defend the country in standing battles

and while your mulling that one over you might address the question I had on your expert knowledge of the IDFs' apparent suitability for "peacekeeping roles"??

LOL :cool: Why should anyone believe you have a brother in the cavalry? Prove it.

Now you don't think Im stupid enough to fall for such an obvious troll as that, do you?

This would appear to be the correct place for it.

This and a few other threads you seem content on spamming and dragging down to an idiotic level.

now wheres my ignore button??

Turnip

Originally posted by Qadhafi
Just to note:The DF recently purchased the Javelin anti armour missile. It defeats all main Main Battle Tanks (MBT's) including the Challenger and M1A2 Abram
Javelin

we should purchase enough MBTs to defend our Armoured Personnell Carriers (APC's), but if we went looking (like its ever going to happen) we get them at knock down prices.

Yep they're excellent.

Well why have an emphasis on the SAS? Why not say sport or the IRISH Army Reserve, but then again, if they seen what the DF has they might not be impressed.

I had elements of SAS training in mind, and command structure. Should've been clearer I guess.

No one is going to invade us, so i wouldnt worry about that. The only dispute is with Iceland about the oil i think. The main threat is overseas on duty where we dont have the proper equipment to defend our troops on the ground from say a charging Armour column

Or any kind of aircraft. Or things like cruise missiles.

Turnip

Originally posted by Hobart
Where did I say that? I'm just asking you wjere your evidence is for your previous statement that: (And I will repeat it for your benefit)b

Er, I answered it. The army cannot defend the country in standing battles because we have not got any aircraft or armour support and very little artillery or anti-tank capability. We don't even have a lot of battle ready troops. Do you want to counter my assertion or are you going to shut up now?

This and a few other threads you seem content on spamming and dragging down to an idiotic level.

Being flamed by a nobody...:o

Qadhafi

I had elements of SAS training in mind, and command structure. Should've been clearer I guess.


Why would someone look for a foreign army to learn command structure and elements of Special Forces training. The Army and Army Reserve both use the same command structure - you get an order - you do it. Elements of Special Air Service training, yes you should have been more clearer. I cant see how training in the SAS has particular relevence to a average Irish citizen.

No one is going to invade us, so i wouldnt worry about that. The only dispute is with Iceland about the oil i think. The main threat is overseas on duty where we dont have the proper equipment to defend our troops on the ground from say a charging Armour column[/i)

quote:
Or any kind of aircraft. Or things like cruise missiles.

What kind of aircraft? A 9/11 hijacker? well dont worry the RAF is patrolling our skies.
This is becuase the Irish government thinks we dont need jet fighters. How much would they cost? cheap ones like the L-159 at €3 million each, get 12 and they would last for 20 odd years €36. You can spread the payement over 10 years(€3.6 a year), and we would meet our requirments, and we wouldnt look like a banana republic

The only people that have the cruise missile is the US and UK. I cant see our allies firing Tomahawk cruise missiles into Dublin? Where do you get this stuff??

Hobart

Originally posted by Turnip

Er, I answered it. The army cannot defend the country in standing battles because we have not got any aircraft or armour support and very little artillery or anti-tank capability. We don't even have a lot of battle ready troops. Do you want to counter my assertion or are you going to shut up now?

Irish Indo article from 03/08/03 And for those of you without a Unison account

MEMBERS of the public could soon be able to buy surplus army tanks, armoured cars, trucks and other military equipment under a novel fund-raising plan.

The cash-stretched Department of Defence, which has funded a modernisation programme by cutting the size of the army and selling off barracks and land, is now looking at putting surplus equipment up for auction.

Modernising the army has meant buying hundreds of trucks and other transport vehicles, as well as a new armoured fleet.

As a result over 100 armoured vehicles, including 60 Panard M-3 armoured personnel carriers, 30 AML armoured cars, as well as Irish-produced Timoneys are surplus to requirements, as well as a large "soft-skinned" fleet of trucks, cars, and vans. Eventually, if they are not upgraded, the army's fleet of Scorpion tanks** could also be sold off.

Sources said last year over 60 mostly driveable obsolete armoured vehicles were cut up for scrap by dealers paying €500-€1,000 each - while trucks and Mondeo staff cars about 10 years old were also being scrapped.

Obsolete military equipment sales are big business in the UK and on the Continent where hobbyists buy and restore the vehicles and sometimes use them in military "re-enactment" shows or acquire them for film or TV work.

Individual vehicles like the AML armoured car could make five times as much if sold to the public rather then being scrapped. The similar ex-British Army Ferret armoured car can make about €6,500 in the UK; while ex-Irish army Bedford trucks could make about €4,600 and Scorpion tanks** could be sold from €20,000 each.

A Department of Defence spokesman confirmed that they were considering re-introducing auctions of military equipment.

Auctions, similar to the Garda vehicles auction, had been held up to about 10 years ago and were seen as a source of revenue for the department, he said.

And Just in case you forgot your previous Quote

No armour

and

By the way, 'armour' is standard military terminology for TANKS

**My emphasis on the words "Scorpion Tanks".

Now I find it quite strange that the Irish Army are able to be in a position to sell something they obviously don't posess.:rolleyes: BTW did you not mention that you were a member of our reserve defence force? Lets hope they packed a recognition kit in that bergin of yours so that you can what our other soldiers are driving. Friendly fire and all that!!!

Once again I will ask you to elaborate on your statement that the IDF are

well suited to international peacekeeping roles

or are you just going to avoid it again???

Hairy Homer

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
I think in today's globalised world a man has a right to become a mercenary for any army he so wishes.

---

Originally posted by bonkey
Has the right, or should have the right?

(In either case, it won't apply to Swiss men who are banned by treaty from being mercenaries for any foreign nation except the Vatican. )

OK maybe I phrased that badly. Should have read 'a mercenary for any army he so wishes and will accept him'

The British Army's website have a grisly hilarious FAQ for prospective recruits. One of the things you learn on it is that the only European country outside of the UK that accepts recruits is the Republic of Ireland.

The French Foreign Legion has no such scruples. It will accept cannon fodder from anywhere. (Mostly Britain and Germany, so a former legionnaire of my acquaintance tells me.)

In today's world where you can jet around to almost everywhere for almost nothing you can't very well stop guys popping over to become mercenaries in some other army if that's what they want to do. However, they must then become responsible for those actions especially if it leads them into conflict with their own country.

Look what the Yanks did to John Walker Lindh. Life imprisonment for fighting openly and in Afghanistan with the Taliban.

And in Britain, treason is the one remaining crime they can still, in theory, hang you for.

Victor

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
I think in today's globalised world a man has a right to become a mercenary for any army he so wishes.

Whatever about joining a volunteer corp (like the Internationals in the Spanish Civil War), I object to anyone becoming a mercenary.

Turnip

Originally posted by Hobart
Irish Indo article from 03/08/03 And for those of you without a Unison account And Just in case you forgot your previous Quote and
**My emphasis on the words "Scorpion Tanks".

Yes maybe if Saddam had a battalion of Scorpions he would have seen off the coalition forces in a couple of days. Pathetic.

Lets hope they packed a recognition kit in that bergin of yours so that you can what our other soldiers are driving. Friendly fire and all that!!!

LOL! :rolleyes:

Morpheus

Firstly it is NOT wrong, id feel safer being posted to a war zone knowing i wasnt depending on anyone else to supply me get me into and out of a hot spot, or provide covering fire, etc.

im considering joining the BA too, and have contacted the aussies about joining their air force, if i get my green card, im going to the states. fair play to you, I couldnt get into the DF here, 4 weeks too old.

secondly this crap is annoying me, I cant believe that some people here have their heads so far up their rectums.....

we are taking on about 40 - 60 new APCs these are troop carriers with gun ports to shoot out of, and probably a machine gun on each, they are not heavily armoured and are not tanks.

we have about 20 something artillery guns. I cant remember the type off hand.

to keep these alive we have a 14 (that's fourteen!!) scorpion tanks in TOTAL, that is all, the scorpion is basically a light armoured vehicle chassis mounted on tracks. it carries the following armament:
1x 90mm gun (main);
1x 7.62mm machine gun (co-axial);
1x 7.62mm machine gun (air defence)

Now over 20 years old, Its combat weight is 8,723kg thats 8 metric tons or thereabouts, its NOT A MAIN BATTLE TANK which weigh in closer to 20 or 30 tons at least.

The only advantage it has of note against a MAIN BATTLE TANK is that its reputed to be the fastest tank ever built 80Kph so we can easily out run the MAIN BATTLE TANKS we meet, as long as they dont shoot us first.

im aware that we have 8,500 combat infantry soldiers in total.

we have 7 ships in our naval fleet, mostly over 20 years old. this is entirely too small a fleet for patrolling what is commonly regarded as the largest surface area of sea owned by a single european country. they are mostly armed with 1 oto mallera cannon each, range about 12 nautical miles.

our air CORPS is not an air force, to be a force would require strike aircraft.

army co-op
we have a few cessnas over 20 years old,

for maritime patrol there are 2 CASA twin engined aircraft from 1994 doubling as Mary Harneys personal transport and tripling as parachute training aircraft when they are flight operable.

for training we have about 10 Marchetti's (20 - 30 years old) which can carry a machine gun at a stretch, not very effective against sidewinders and anything faster than 150 mph

we have about 12 rotary aircraft 1 gazelle, a few Allouette 3's and 2 or 3 Dauphins, all these aircraft range from 40 to 25 years old and all are hand downs from other air forces. they all operate as SAR and army co-op training, although we are phasing them out and replacing them with civilian operated SAR helicopters which are costing you and me more to rent than own.

im probably forgetting a sopwith camel or spitfire somewhere, but that really is the backbone of our AIR CORPS.

oh yeah were REPLACING the marchettis with 8 PC9s which are shiny new but worth f*ck all against even an ancient jet fighter, indeed our most potent fighter is the vampire in casement museum it has a 600 kts top speed.

Air defence consists of 3 or 4 cast-off second hand dutch army flycatcher radar systems connected to anti aircraft guns (missiles? not sure) with a maximum range of ten thousand feet, so come in with less than 10,000 troops, no main battle tanks, no helicopters, keep your 5 aircraft lower that 400 knots and lower than 10,000 feet and you will be squashed like a bug by the mighty irish army.

please, get a life, most countries spend 2% GDP on defence (thats european average) we spend 0.4% GDP, why should we be different and more dependent on our neighbours, we fought for independence and are still dependent on others.

Surely even the most tight fisted dim witted anti war types must see that we need our own SAR equipment, and troop support for peace keeping missions? we have a role to play in the future of the UN Europe and peace keeping the world over, but without the right stuff were useless.

Irish people should wake up and stop laughing at our armed service, they should support them, and demand the same things the taximan, aerlingus workers, the blue flue'd gardai, teachers, nurses, doctors ask for i.e. more funding, better working conditions and safer newer equipment for the future.

BEFORE you shout health service schools whatever, let me ask you this, where is the health service white paper?
the educational whitepaper???

if these 2 departments were run as highly controlled and tight fisted as the Dept of Defence, we'd be a much better off country.

Next time you complain about the defence forces not needing equipment, think about whos going to patrol our seas to protect fish stocks and stop drug smuggling, defend our OWN airspace to a reasonable level, and support peace keeping, think of the money being fired at several health boards when their should be a national centralised SINGLE health service.

ASK yourself, would YOU fly out to rescue a fisherman whos caught his arm in a winch 150 miles off shore in storm force seas and winds in a 40 year old helicopter with only one engine?

All you who think we dont need defence forces or their equipment is OK, research and think logically before you post again.

sorry bout the rant...