Is it wrong for Irishmen and women to join foreign Armed Forces!

Hobart

Originally posted by Turnip

Yes maybe if Saddam had a battalion of Scorpions he would have seen off the coalition forces in a couple of days.

I believe at the time of the War in Iraq they had one, if not the, biggest tank divisions in the world. Maybe somebody with a bit of knowledge on this subjct could clarify.

As for your absolute refusal to make any sense or address any point directly, and the fact that you respond to the debunking of your "argument" and the exposure of you and your "knowledge" as fraudulant it is paiently obvious that what you say is absolute tosh. And so I will treat it as that.

Originally posted by Turnip
Pathetic

Yes you are really.

[EDIT] I've just noticed that you will be away on "holidays" for a week. Pity actually[/EDIT]

the_syco

Originally posted by bonkey
Can you show a single piece of Irish legislation which says that serving a foreign army is an act of treason, or when you say "traitor" are you implying something other than what the term actually means?

jc

Sorry, but this was not part of Irish legislation, but my own opinion.
I was implying that turn your back on how (most of) the British have been anti-Irish, and how still are to an extent.
If you didn't have to swear to the monarchy, I'd have no problem with him joing the British Arm, as they are good, and joining the Royal Irish Army brigade would (apart from the "Royal" bit) be mainly full of Irish people (somewhere it states that, although its hard for an Irish national to join the English army (according to public press mainly pre-dating the "peace" treaties), there are places reserved for Irish-born nationals in the Royal Irish Army.

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I agree with Qadhafi about the fact that if the army had a practiacal purpose (as opposed to being trained for a war that in theory may happen), and get some action, there'd be less people leaving to go to foreign armies, as whats the point in learning to walk, if your only going to crawl?

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Irish Armour; Someone said we didn't have any armour

AML 90mm in Cathal Brugha Bks

AML 20mm in Cathal Brugha Bks

Panhard AML 90mm firing

Scorpion Tanks - Cavalry Corps

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Also, Hobart, if that artiicle you quoted is true, me's gonna get a Scorpio. Lets see the cops stop me now ROFL

bonkey

Originally posted by the_syco
if the army had a practiacal purpose and get some action, there'd be less people leaving to go to foreign armies,

And more people looking for compensation from those loud guns making them go deaf ???

(Sorry, couldn't resist. I know its offtopic.)

jc

Qadhafi

just a few points,

The Scorpion light tank.

We have 14 of them. They are a light tank. Their primary mission is Close Target Recce (CTR). Currently they are using petrol engines and might be up for sale if the DF doesnt convert them to diesel. Thats the only problem, getting parts for the Jaguar engine. however the DF is expected to convert them next year.
The brits took theirs out of service becuase some of the troops were complaining about the fumes in the turret. The DF had the same problem but installed a €2,000 extractor fan. The brits, aussies, and new zeland (i think) were quite impressed. The brits are thinking about bringing some of theirs back into service.

we have 20 105mm artillery. Its modern and pretty effective. We would need another 15 or so.

we have 65 Mowag Pirhana APC's. Brand new and its what other EU countries are purchasing. We need about 120 in total.

In regards to the scorpion light tank. The brits offerred all the scorpions we wanted at shipping prices! But DF said no. I dont know why?

The DF is lacking in equipment yes, 5 medium lift helicopters like the S-92. 8-12 light fighter like the L-159 and some sort of tank to protect the APC's overseas. A couple of hundred of million would sort all this out.

However the real problem is that the DF doesnt get used enough, it needs more overseas missions, same with the Army Reserve, same with any army. Once the DF has a goal its like being in a different organisation. The Army Reserve basically ran the Special Olympics for free! it was good for the DF and good for Ireland. Moral in the Army Ranger Wing is very high because they are always on excerise, overseas, good equipment and the public hold them in high regard. The government has to find missions for the rest of the DF or we will keep loosing people to other armies and leave the DF with a negative attitude

bloggs

Originally posted by Morphéus


our air CORPS is not an air force, to be a force would require strike aircraft.

army co-op
we have a few cessnas over 20 years old,

for maritime patrol there are 2 CASA twin engined aircraft from 1994 doubling as Mary Harneys personal transport and tripling as parachute training aircraft when they are flight operable.

for training we have about 10 Marchetti's (20 - 30 years old) which can carry a machine gun at a stretch, not very effective against sidewinders and anything faster than 150 mph

we have about 12 rotary aircraft 1 gazelle, a few Allouette 3's and 2 or 3 Dauphins, all these aircraft range from 40 to 25 years old and all are hand downs from other air forces. they all operate as SAR and army co-op training, although we are phasing them out and replacing them with civilian operated SAR helicopters which are costing you and me more to rent than own.

im probably forgetting a sopwith camel or spitfire somewhere, but that really is the backbone of our AIR CORPS.

oh yeah were REPLACING the marchettis with 8 PC9s which are shiny new but worth f*ck all against even an ancient jet fighter, indeed our most potent fighter is the vampire in casement museum it has a 600 kts top speed.

Air defence consists of 3 or 4 cast-off second hand dutch army flycatcher radar systems connected to anti aircraft guns (missiles? not sure) with a maximum range of ten thousand feet, so come in with less than 10,000 troops, no main battle tanks, no helicopters, keep your 5 aircraft lower that 400 knots and lower than 10,000 feet and you will be squashed like a bug by the mighty irish army.

Why don't they buy some cheap MiGs Jets from Russia (even 10 year old ones) . Also an AK-47 is cheaper than a stire (excuse the spelling) sub-machine gun.

Qadhafi

Quote for training we have about 10 Marchetti's (20 - 30 years old) which can carry a machine gun at a stretch, not very effective against sidewinders and anything faster than 150 mph

Actually they have been replaced the Marchetti's PC-9 turboprop. We bought 8 for €60million.They can fire sidewinders and are equipped with ejection seats, Heads up Display, fly up to 40,000 ft,s peed 667 km/ (496 km/h at sea level) .. More than adequate for a jet trainer.

We actually bought the Allouette brand new and goes to show how long a helicopter lasts and the pride that the air corps put into maintaining them. The French were particularly impressed.

Air defence consists of 3 or 4 cast-off second hand dutch army flycatcher radar systems connected to anti aircraft guns (missiles? not sure) with a maximum range of ten thousand feet, so come in with less than 10,000 troops, no main battle tanks, no helicopters, keep your 5 aircraft lower that 400 knots and lower than 10,000 feet and you will be squashed like a bug by the mighty irish army.

It shows the general level of ignorance. The purchase of the flycatcher was a pragmatic decision. Missiles can be jammed, bullets cant! However we do have the RBS-70 which can take down any jet should it fly below 10,000 feet.

The only attack Irelands going to face is a terrorist attack. Where is this stuff about MBT's and fighter jets attacking attacking Ireland coming from?? Are we living in the same country?Wakey Wakey !

bonkey

OK guys....

some fascinating stuff (and I'm not being sarcastic), but........

Can we try getting back on topic now?

The thread isn't about whether or not the Irish army should have / needs better equipment, its about whether or not you consider it right / wrong / somewhere-in-between for Irish people to "jine up" to a foreign army.

Qadhafi

Quote
Why don't they buy some cheap MiGs Jets from Russia (even 10 year old ones) . Also an AK-47 is cheaper than a stire (excuse the spelling) sub-machine gun.


We have enough assault rifles, the Steyr is superior to the AK-47 and it uses the same ammunition as the UK US and NATO (the side were on!).

Traditionally countries like India, China, Pakistan etc would purchase Russian equipment. Most European nations either European or US made equipment. The Russian stuff isnt as good.

As an example of jets, look at the deal Aerlingus and Ryainair got on those aircraft. Military aircraft is the same, you can pick up fighter jets at bargin prices. The company will offset the deal with offers of jobs etc.. We could rent aircraft or pay for them over their 20 year life time.click to see Javelin

Morpheus

my first point was that I agree that someone is right to leave and join a foreign army if they arent happy with whats on offer here, i know im not.

second point was to clarify figures because people were basically under the impression that we have tanks, what they got wrong was that we only have 14 tanks, and that they arent good enough to support the APC's we have, they are light fast manouverable but not heavily armed or armoured enough.

I also was pointing out we are an air corps not an air force, because we have no fighters, I also know about the PC 9 if you had read further down my post you would see that, some of my figures are slightly wrong simply because I didnt have all day to research them properly, tryin to hold down a job here

the meaning of all this "we have this, we dont have that" crap is to point out that if the gov supported the Defence Forces here with good equipment, missions and support, then people wouldnt be bothered about leaving to join other armies, it might also make the general public more aware of the plight of the DF here, anyway its still a persons right to decide, they shouldnt feel guilty about one thing or another.

Qadhafi

the meaning of all this "we have this, we dont have that" crap is to point out that if the gov supported the Defence Forces here with good equipment, missions and support, then people wouldnt be bothered about leaving to join other armies, it might also make the general public more aware of the plight of the DF here, anyway its still a persons right to decide, they shouldnt feel guilty about one thing or another.

I have to agree totally. Anyone I have met who is leaving the DF is so sickened with the DF and their lack of equipment,lack of missions and government and public indifference. Were always going to have loads of people leaving our army. Some of the people wonder why all the equipment gets discussed etc, its the main reason why people leave the DF.

The worst part is that a lot of the problems could be fixed, its just that the Governement doesnt give a crap.

I would take the oath and have no problem with it, if your a professional soldier you wouldnt have a problem but thats probably lost with the general public.

bonkey

Originally posted by Morphéus
the meaning of all this "we have this, we dont have that" crap is to point out that if the gov supported the Defence Forces here with good equipment, missions and support, then people wouldnt be bothered about leaving to join other armies, it might also make the general public more aware of the plight of the DF here,

Yes, but as I'm saying....this is off-topic. Related, but off-topic.

anyway its still a persons right to decide, they shouldnt feel guilty about one thing or another.

On topic

My guess is that very few people feel directly guilty for making (or even considering) such a choice, but are more concerned about the perception of others will have of them.

jc

bloggs

This is mainly about joining the British Army, would people have a problem with someone joining the US Army?

If i was to join an Army it would probably be them. They have the greatest opportunities, they are the most advanced, and you could probably get a pretty good (safe) job in a radar station or missile site

SkepticOne

Although someone wanting to leave the Irish army might be evidence of inadaquate equipment and training, I would be dead against the government making changes for this reason.

The purpose of the army is to carry out the policy of the government. It needs to be sufficiently equipped for the tasks to which it is likely to be put. Its purpose is not to provide careers for people.

Whether it is wrong for people to serve another countrie's interests is a very different issue to whether the Irish army is properly equipped for the purposes of the State.

Personally, I believe in The thing having the right to join the army of a foreign power. The the ethics of doing so is largely a personal matter, imo. If The Thing joins the British Army, then he may be required to carry out policies that are against the interests of his own people. He will have proudly sworn to do so, because the Irish State was not providing him with a sufficiently good career. It is unlikely that such an event should arise, but if it did, The thing's loyalty would be to the British State, not the Irish State.

Victor

Originally posted by bloggs
They have the greatest opportunities, they are the most advanced,

Technologically yes, as soldiers no - this from a friend who got bettering soldiering training to become a private in the FCÁ that while becoming a Lieutenant in the California National Guard.

Qadhafi

Technologically yes, as soldiers no - this from a friend who got bettering soldiering training to become a private in the FCÁ that while becoming a Lieutenant in the California National Guard.

Very true. The US have a different mentality when it come to soldiering than European armies(your a specialist,one thing). In fairness the FCA will train you to a better standard than US National Guard, Reserve or full timers (yes its true not including special forces obviously). I recieved training with handgun, assault rifle,machine gun,anti tank,mortar,advanced radio and how to direct mortar fire. Say you did that to a US soldier and he will reckon ur special forces or a liar!.

Although someone wanting to leave the Irish army might be evidence of inadaquate equipment and training, I would be dead against the government making changes for this reason.

The DF has to keep the best people in the force and stop loosing bodies to other armies and having a high turn over. It means constant re-training, the government recognised this and implemented measures to keep people in the DF.

Its not like England is going to declare war on a fellow EU nation like Ireland. And i think its fair to say that the troubles in the north are behind us

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Qadhafi
The DF has to keep the best people in the force and stop loosing bodies to other armies and having a high turn over. It means constant re-training, the government recognised this and implemented measures to keep people in the DF.

This is a secondary reason. Yes, there needs to be good training in order to retain people. However, the primary purpose of this training is not to retain people. It is that the training will be needed in a conflict or peace-keeping situation.

For The thing (if his post is anything to go by) the main problem is that a decent career for him is not being provided. His solution is to join some other country's army. Moral issues aside, this seems to be a perfect solution to the problem.

Its not like England is going to declare war on a fellow EU nation like Ireland. And i think its fair to say that the troubles in the north are behind us

Although it is unlikely, should there be a conflict of interest, the Thing will be proud (since they are providing a better career) to side with Britain against Ireland. I agree it is unlikely, though.

Qadhafi

This is a secondary reason. Yes, there needs to be good training in order to retain people. However, the primary purpose of this training is not to retain people. It is that the training will be needed in a conflict or peace-keeping situation.

Soldering for some isnt a national pride thing for most- just see it as a 9-5. Yes the primary goal is go enable the soldier to carry out his or her mission but if there are no oppurtunities, they will just leave.

The DF is a bit like working in a factory, not as bad but similar. You dont have to work that hard, your not really going to get fired just keep putting the time in and pass yourself, not much chance of getting a promotion, maybe to foreman but thats it. not getting skills so you just think, this is a dead end job, no respect f**k it im quitting.

It leads to a general poor morale and a bitchy sort of an organisation. Its bad for the Army, bad for the individual. People giving out about Irish people serving with the Brits and some even serving in the North, maybe if we had a decent DF, and a few oppurtunites for soldiers, this thread wouldnt exist!!

** I see the DF is about to go to Liberia, 400 bod's ! Thats what the DF needs!