Isnt our infastructre a mess?

Qadhafi

Isnt our infastructre a mess?

I didnt get to see the Prime Time program last night but I did read some of Gareth Fitzgearld articles on the Luas.Mr Seamus Brennan admitted last night that the Luas was badly conceived and that it should have been put 100% underground. Its just a sample of things in general.

Firstly the Luas, the capacity which offers doesnt meet that of a bus, it would have been a lot cheaper to offer Quality Bus corriders in Dublin. Luas is a red herring in Dublin.

Dublin needs a underground metro, the government has to re-draw the plans to put everything underground and start work now!. Luas should have been given to Cork or Galway where the traffic isnt as bad as the capital. €1bn is wasted in Dublin but would have been great for Cork or Galway.

The M-50 is already at capacity, yet were still sitting on the fence. It needs a huge upgrade with those US style flyovers and widening to 4 or 5 lanes each way.

We need a new stadium to replace Landsdown road. Croke park wont do, matches overlapping etc. It should be at least 65,000 if not 80,000 (the seats will be filled) and should be built in Abbotstown as there is no real alternative.

Why is the government building a huge motorway network for the private car and expecting the private sector to build public infastructure? The motorways should be tolled, so they can be built quicker- whoever wants to use them should pay, there should be incentive schemes in place fo r roads which are completed on time or ahead of schedule. The government should be investing in rail with high speed rail on the main inter-city routes. and general upgrading of the rest of the services.

Dublin airport needs a second terminal URGENT. Build it, why are they pissing around?

It could do simply things like have an integrated ticketing system and an integrated transport policy(Im talking about timetables,and connecting services). Even things like giving local authorities more power to make rural roads safer to drive on, taking away dangerous corners, contracting out cutting hedges etc. Some of the rural roads are a joke, badly drained is their main problem with Huge hedges and full of dangerous corners and NO signposts ANYWHERE.

Where to get the money? Borrow, PPP tolls etc. Intrest rates are at historical lows. The government has to either breach the stability pact or come up with something better next January when we have the presidency.

whats everyone's thoughts on the matter??

Personally, i'm alot more tolerent of our infrastructure requirements. I agree on the matter of the roads, and i consider that to be a top priority, but the rest? not really too bothered. they're really things that can follow later.

I'm mostly interested in the road system we currently have, be updated nationally, not just in Dublin. There are too many roads that haven't been re-surfaced in more than three years (i.e. plants growing from the middle, and only capable of taking one vechicle going one way)

As for Croke park and Landsdown Road, they're like the government jet, something we don't really need yet. theres plenty of other things this country needs more.

Where to get the money? Borrow, PPP tolls etc. Intrest rates are at historical lows. The government has to either breach the stability pact or come up with something better next January when we have the presidency.

Ahh but our economy is apparently doing fine, but we're in debt already. Why borrow more, for cosmetic changes. I say, allocate what we have and upgrade our existing infrastructure. I don't really see the point, of going further into debt....

Qadhafi - just to note something. All the changes you list are in or around Dublin. Just to make the upgrades, or changes you list would bring us into more debt. But the rest of the country needs work done also.... so where does that leave us? I dunno...

mike65

If e-bay turned down a more generous grant to locate in Athlone and chose Dublin instead I think that tells you everything about the infrastruture failure (which is about more than obvious phyiscal stuff) of the last two governments.

Mike.

The Beer Baron

WHAT INFASTRUCTURE!??
:eek:

bloggs

Im living in Dublin, but i still don't understand why the places like Cork or Galway can't have a light rail/rail service?

Did anyone see on the news about the English complaining that they were 20 years behind the French with highspeed trains. I guess we will get the same ones by about 2020 :rolleyes:

bloggs

Originally posted by Qadhafi


Dublin airport needs a second terminal URGENT. Build it, why are they pissing around?

Or get a private company to build another Airport (smaller one) (Dublin City Airport or something). Also don't let Aer Rianta/Unions into it at all!!!

Wook

I think , by the time this goverment realizes that we do need roads and a decent public transport system it's going to be too late and ireland will once again be the land of lepra-goons and rainbows. People will have to do the riverdance and tourist will see the remnants of a metal tube sticking into the ground.

bonkey

Originally posted by Qadhafi
Dublin needs a underground metro,

I thought the reason that the underground plan was initially scrapped was because of the fact that most fo teh city centre is built on top of what is effectively reclaimed land, which simply isn't solid enough to build an underground system on for anything less than a ridiculously astronomical price.

Luas should have been given to Cork or Galway where the traffic isnt as bad as the capital. €1bn is wasted in Dublin but would have been great for Cork or Galway.

So you're saying that the government shouldn't have spent the money where the problem was worst? Or are you saying that this 1bn should have been spent elsewhere, and even more money spent in Dublin.

If they had that money, don't you think they would have used it?

We need a new stadium to replace Landsdown road.

Absolutely not, unless its a private venture. Spending money on such a vanity project when our education, infrastructure, etc are all desperately in need of improvement would be utterly irresponsible.

Where to get the money?

The government should stop trying to plug all the little holes, and concentrate on one problem at a time. Invest in infrastructure, sort it out, then move on to the next problem. The current idea of supplying dribs and drabs to everything is good for appeasing the "What About Us" moaners, but hopeless at actually achieving anything. Of course, the problem with such a focussed approach is that it would more or less guarantee losing the following election from all the WAU's

It should also look seriously at its efficiency and choke-points. How is it, for example, that the Irish pay more for their health-care than anyone else in Europe? It sure as sh*t doesn't result in the best service, or anything approaching it.

jc

Qadhafi

we have the second lowest National debt (Luxemburg 1st) in Europe but we must have one of the worst infrastructure in Europe.

The luas should have been built in Cork. It was the first major piece of infrastructure we built for ourselves and a lot of lessons have been learnt. It wouldn’t have made such a negative difference to trade if it was built in a smaller city.

Every country seems to go through these learning curves. The brits spent £Ster3.4bn on the jubilee line (its only 20k long i think). France and Germany have examples etc.

The government if it had any sense would be building high speed lines for the intercity routes. But something like this isn’t going to happen for another 10 years (when we need it).

The poor maintenance of the roads is also a mystery. If I was Seamus Brennan I would do the following.

Pass a law to enable the County Councils around Ireland to remove the verge of minor roads. There are usually high banks of mud. Then dig a trench, put that yellow piping stuff in it and fill it up with stones and have those man holes every 25meters flush with the surface of the road(taking those verges away would enable 2 cars to pass safely). Specify a certain height for the hedges and contract it out to a contractor to keep the hedges that height all year. Compulsory land acquisition for dangerous corners (say up to 5 -10 meters). Mark all the roads with appropriate road marking and have signposts at every junction. The only real cost is manual work and the paint and the signposts. It would make a huge difference to people living in rural areas and maybe they would be so pissed off with the government. Its probably one of the cheapest things the government could do.

Well for any football and rugby fan (and there’s quite a few) we need a new stadium. It good for a country to have an interest in sport and it will help develop sport in this country. You have to admit when Ireland does well at soccer it lifts the whole country!

Originally posted by Wook
I think , by the time this goverment realizes that we do need roads and a decent public transport system it's going to be too late and ireland will once again be the land of lepra-goons and rainbows. People will have to do the riverdance and tourist will see the remnants of a metal tube sticking into the ground.

lol this post just reminds me of that comedy show that used to be on Network 2 on a Monday night - you know, the one with the guy who played the referee in the oap soccer match in Father Ted?

Anyways theres these American tourists going around and everytime the Irish people see them they have to put on paddy-hats and start doing the riverdance.
LAF

/back to topic

star gazer

There is a point for a light rail system for Galway and Cork, but i think the national pension reserve fund could be used to funded a metro for Dublin. Every major European city has an underground, if Dublin is to be thought of as a real world player, it needs to get an underground, efficient transportation system. A certain amount of planning would be needed to take some pressure off the city of Dublin while the city gets a metro system. I would be a bit sceptical because there could be some damage to buildings (subsidence etc. think of port tunnel) and in certain areas there would have to be surface works aswell as underground. My opinion is that that could be far worse than Luas (if that is possible).
On balance, investing in our future is something we, as a nation, should be focussing on.

ringzer

Originally posted by Qadhafi

Pass a law to enable the County Councils around Ireland to remove the verge of minor roads. There are usually high banks of mud. Then dig a trench, put that yellow piping stuff in it and fill it up with stones and have those man holes every 25meters flush with the surface of the road(taking those verges away would enable 2 cars to pass safely). Specify a certain height for the hedges and contract it out to a contractor to keep the hedges that height all year. Compulsory land acquisition for dangerous corners (say up to 5 -10 meters). Mark all the roads with appropriate road marking and have signposts at every junction. The only real cost is manual work and the paint and the signposts. It would make a huge difference to people living in rural areas and maybe they would be so pissed off with the government. Its probably one of the cheapest things the government could do.

Have you any idea how long that would take the hard working council workers to do? They'd all probably die before its done. Then again most of them are ancient so they'll die soon anyway.

But seriously, I agree with contracting out road repairs and tolling roads. I dont think any country with a good road network give it away for free - ie they charge tolls. Its only fair. You use the train - you pay, so if you use the road, you should pay tolls.

I'm in NY at the moment, and in fairness their infrastructure is excellent. Its not perfect, but its a damm sight better than Ireland.

bonkey

Originally posted by Qhadafi
we have the second lowest National debt (Luxemburg 1st) in Europe but we must have one of the worst infrastructure in Europe.

Yup, and yup (presuming "Europe" == "western Europe" for the second point). However, there are now limits to how much the government can overspend, unless you're suggesting (as I already mentioned) that we give Europe two fingers.

The luas should have been built in Cork. .

You keep saying this about Cork. I'm beginning to think you must be from there

Did Cork need an investment of €1 bn to fix its transport on top of the monies already spent there in the past decade on such necesseties as the tunnel??

Have you any evidence that the lessons learned would have been applicable to Dublin? What do you propose should have been done in Dublin while they waited? Nothing? Spend more money on a temporary knee-jerk solution while we wait 10 or 20 years to evaluate the success of what was done in Cork?

It was the first major piece of infrastructure we built for ourselves and a lot of lessons have been learnt.

Did we not build the DART?

(And to be quite honest, anyone building something "for themselves" in preference to hiring trusted and proven expertise in the matter should be shot - figuratively speaking).

Originally posted by star gazer
Every major European city has an underground,

Yes, and no.

http://www.metropla.net/eu/euromet.htm

For example, there isn't a single metro in Switzerland, although I guess you could argue that none of the cities here are large enough to be "major" in terms of pure population.

Also, you're really talking about every major western European city.

What would be more important (for me) is the fact that I can't think of a non-Irish major European city which does not have a train line running to its major airports.

if Dublin is to be thought of as a real world player, it needs to get an underground, efficient transportation system.

I don't think so. It is not (IMHO) Joe Q Public who decides a city is a world player - it is businesses and the like - the successful and the rich.

The successful and rich generally do not travel by public transport, underground or overground.

What is a more telling factor is the overall quality of the transport system. Here, Dublin falls down, but an underground is not necessarily the way to solve it.

Bear in mind also that the estimated costs for the Dublin metro plan were in the region of €100 to 150 million, per kilometre. The entire LUAS budget of about €1 billion would have funded 10km of underground at most assuming that the figures proved to be somewhat accurate for once.

Those costs are astronomical, and are generally the reason that the plan was scrapped (assuming it was scrapped - the link above still shows the planned "metro-tram" system for Dublin as being on the cards).

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by ringzer
I dont think any country with a good road network give it away for free - ie they charge tolls. Its only fair. You use the train - you pay, so if you use the road, you should pay tolls.

On public roads, they call it road tax - which people already pay.

And as an island, Ireland doesn't suffer from significant masses of foreign traffic using our roads "for free" either.

jc

Qadhafi

a high speed train service to the 5 major cities would make a huge difference to quality of life. travelling at 250Kmp/hr (or whatever it is), you would be down in cork in no time.

Fixing the minor roads isnt go cost that much, they really should do it!

In addition the Government should design a Luas system for Galway and Cork(Luas was a good idea but wrong city).

Build the Dublin eastern bypass through Public Private Partnership

Provide proper park and ride facilites in Dublin, that might take some of the cars off the streets on Dublin

The government isnt doing much is it?

bonkey

Originally posted by Qadhafi
a high speed train service to the 5 major cities would make a huge difference to quality of life. travelling at 250Kmp/hr (or whatever it is), you would be down in cork in no time.

And how much would it cost, and is it the best use of limited funds?

Fixing the minor roads isnt go cost that much, they really should do it!

Again - how much would it cost? "Not that much" is a very easy number to throw about. Hard figures, plus sources for generating the cash in the first place are a bit harder to come by.

In addition the Government should design a Luas system for Galway and Cork(Luas was a good idea but wrong city).

I disagree entirely. Neither Cork nor Galway need a Luas, nor a metro. What they need is a conventional bus & tram system.

Also - see previous questions about cost and sourcing revenue.

Provide proper park and ride facilites in Dublin, that might take some of the cars off the streets on Dublin

Doubt it.

Dublin needs a coherent strategy - a combination of removal of inner-city parking facilities, coupled with a simultaneous increase in bus numbers, routes, frequencies, and quality of service.

The problem Dublin faces is possibly unique within Europe, and uncommon worldwide at best. The problem is the population density - its incredibly low. When you factor that into public transport, its an almost impossible situation - you need bus-stops frequently enough that people will use them (rather than driving cause the bus-stop is half a klick away), but at the same time, the closer together you place them, the more routes, drivers, and buses you need....without the travelling population outside rush-hour to even make it remotely possible to avoid losing money hand over fist.

The best solution Dublin had proposed was about 15 or 20 years ago, when they were told to imlpement a shed-load of bus corridors, replace a huge amount of the fleet with Imps, and increase the frequency of said buses to supply an overall better service. That might have worked then, but the govt decided it couldn't afford it and implemented it piece-meal. Even today, the number of bus corridors is below what was suggested as necessary over a decade ago, Imps are a dying breed, and we have a service thats overcrowded to ridiculous amounts at rush-hour, but which is massively under-utilised the rest of the day.

Seriously - if you think the problem is easy to solve, go make a proposal. I'm willing to bet that Dublin Bus would pay a fee of large numbers of millions to anyone who could supply as easy a solution as many people here seem to think there is.

The government isnt doing much is it?

The government has an awful lot of people, each with their own "highly important" priorities to keep happy. What makes you think your priorities are more important than everyone elses?

It could do better, but to be fair, its not exactly a simple problem.

Personally, I think that the key to resolving the issue is to hand the responsibility over to someone who doesn't need to be re-elected every so often. Then there's at least a chance that tough decisions will be made when they're needed (rather than waiting until its a question of the easiest tough option to choose) and things might slowly improve.

jc

Qadhafi

High Speed Rail HSR
(troll) advantages:
High-speed rail has the advantage over cars, in that it can travel at speeds far faster than those possible by car, and avoids congestion. And for relatively short distances of less than around 650 km (400 miles) has an advantage over air travel in that it needs no long check in times, which eliminates the speed advantage of air travel for short haul flights. And has a far greater frequency of service than is possible with air travel. (/troll)

cost is another matter, it depends on the location.
Railway Technology

Whatever the cost now, HSR will pay itself off in the future. motorways just clog up, yeah we need them but look at any other western country and its a similar pattern. HSR needs to be built now, not started when we really need it in the future.

Bringing the minor roads up to a minimum standard cant cost that much.Its essentially manual work.There is no complex plans. Just widen the roads, cut hedges, paint, drainage and signposts. Ive no specific numbers, but it cant cost that much. Its not crucial so it can stop if there is finance problems but at the moement its just being ignored.

I disagree entirely. Neither Cork nor Galway need a Luas, nor a metro. What they need is a conventional bus & tram system.

Luas is essentially a tram system.

Park and ride served by a proper integrated policy will work and if there was enough capacity on the buses etc then Dublin could introduce a limited congestion charge.

I really belive the government is pissing about and making a real mess of infastructure.

Name me 1 large high profile infastructure project that they didnt make a mess of? Port Tunnel, Luas, Metro(cost overruns+hasnt started).
Lack of broadband even though were selling ourselves as a E-commerce hub of Europe.
National stadium for Rugby+Soccer.
Stalling on 2nd terminal @Dublin airport, when its projected to bring in a increased number of tourists.
Only building only 3 lanes on M-50 and costcutting on roundabout instead of interchanges on motorway.
The cost over runs on motorways and behind schedule.
Still stalling on fixing the health service, basically downgrading regional hospitals and have centres of excellents.

gurramok

Only building only 3 lanes on M-50 and costcutting on roundabout instead of interchanges on motorway.

Yup, its a farce. Guess we are paying for all the housing estates that were built since the 70s with little/inadequate public transprot service.

Obviously the engineers/people in charge never heard of flyovers, putting traffic lights on roundabouts at major interchanges (Red Cow, Blanchardstown M50/N3) must be one of the worst road cockups

The M50/N3 interchange at blanch was built twice. I remember they knocked it down first time, the canal and train line were redesigned to be be like a flyover, they obviously forgot about the road part

I wonder what educational institution the planners attended

As said previously, more and more buses with appropiate routes are needed rather than a Luas that would only serve a small minority of commuters.
For ex, getting from the west to the north of Dublin, M50\back roads is the better alternative than getting 2 buses that would take far too long to tempt commuters. Why is there not frequent and plentiful bus routes to serve these parts of the city ?

The Luas reminds me of the Dart in that it would only serve a small number of commuters. Ffs, the dart only serves the extreme coastal parts of the eastern suburbs (:
Plus any public transport needs to be the CHEAPER journey alternative to the car !

ringzer

Originally posted by bonkey
On public roads, they call it road tax - which people already pay.

And as an island, Ireland doesn't suffer from significant masses of foreign traffic using our roads "for free" either.

jc

I knew that point would be picked up on. I thought people would give me some credit and assume I knew about road tax. Road tax is for rural and city streets, not to fund national primary routes. I'm talking about charging extra, based on use obviously for use of large roads such as motorways. Its the only way to fund these things. Money from Europe is drying up and will do more so with all the Eastern Europe countries joining soon

bonkey

Originally posted by gurramok
Plus any public transport needs to be the CHEAPER journey alternative to the car !

When I lived in Dublin, taking the cost of owning, running, insuring and parking a car (I worked in the city centre) meant that taking a taxi everywhere would be a cheaper alternative to a car.

The DART is a massively cheaper alternative, and (to be fair) transports rather a lot of people along a route where it was effectively impossible to upgrade the roads significantly.

Seriously lads....everyone here is moaning about what should have been done, what was done wrong, etc. etc. etc. and not one of you has addressed the issues of costs, or actually made anything more than a sweeping statement about something.

You complain about the M50 only having 3 lanes. The problem with the M50 is not the number of lanes on it. Its the volume of traffic which the on- and off- ramps can (or rather can't) handle overloading the road resulting in massive congestion. You could make the road 20 lanes wide, and you'd still queue for 45 minutes to get off at an exit.

People say "buses are the answer" without any though of where the buses would run, other than as "a proper service".

The LUAS isn't the answer - a metro is, despite the illogically large costs, not to mention the disruption it would cause compared to the LUAS (which is also being complained about).

I'm talking about charging extra, based on use obviously for use of large roads such as motorways. Its the only way to fund these things.

I very much doubt that anyone is going to agree to pay tolls on roads which were built with a combination of taxpayer's money and EEC / EC / EU grants in the first place.

And if road tax doesnt fund the NPRs at present, what does?

Also, consider the massive congestion our few toll points already cause. Whenever they are (occasionally) closed, there are always reports at how much better the traffic is flowing through and near them. Are you suggesting that implementing these systems on a significantly wider basis would be an improvement??? It might make the roads better, but its simply going to add another set of bloody big chokepoints on them as well.

jc

jd

Originally posted by gurramok
.

Obviously the engineers/people in charge never heard of flyovers, putting traffic lights on roundabouts at major interchanges (Red Cow, Blanchardstown M50/N3) must be one of the worst road cockups

I think any of the engineers working on the project would have preferred flyovers etc . The department of finance effectvely shunted back any proposals for them saying it cost too much...

star gazer

I don't think so. It is not (IMHO) Joe Q Public who decides a city is a world player - it is businesses and the like - the successful and the rich.

I disagree partially. It is true that the rich have a part to play in the fortunes of a city, but a business can only expand and make it's owners rich if the workers are productive. Cutting out traffic jams, crowded buses and claustrophobic housing through the use of a well planned, well spread underground system. The barber, the waiter, the street sweeper would all have a little bit of extra free time, and more comfortable daily routine with the underground. The point i'm trying to make is that it's the people that make a city a world player. Having a smooth underground (that not all rich would avoid) would be a part of the criteria for Dublin being a world player.
If a bus and tram system would work for Dublin I believe that Luas would be seen as a more positive step than it is.

I thought the reason that the underground plan was initially scrapped was because of the fact that most fo teh city centre is built on top of what is effectively reclaimed land, which simply isn't solid enough to build an underground system on for anything less than a ridiculously astronomical price.

I agree. I hope the technology is or will soon be there to make it feasible. Someone may just have to go for it because there will always be dissenters.

ringzer

Originally posted by bonkey


I very much doubt that anyone is going to agree to pay tolls on roads which were built with a combination of taxpayer's money and EEC / EC / EU grants in the first place.

And if road tax doesnt fund the NPRs at present, what does?

Also, consider the massive congestion our few toll points already cause. Whenever they are (occasionally) closed, there are always reports at how much better the traffic is flowing through and near them. Are you suggesting that implementing these systems on a significantly wider basis would be an improvement??? It might make the roads better, but its simply going to add another set of bloody big chokepoints on them as well.

jc

Two points:

1. The problem with Road tax is that is funds every road in the country. We need to create a revenue stream just for NPR's. Granted we get/got alot of money from the EU but as I'ive already said, this is drying up. We need to look at other areas to create money. I agree that people may have problems paying for roads that are EU funded, but any future roads will have to be paid for in other ways ie tolls.

2. Being ignorant and not from Dublin, (much better place - Cork!) I dont know how the toll booths work in Dublin. However, in the states and in most other countries I reckon, they have electronic toll booths. You sign up and get a device that you stick to the windscreen. When you get to the toll booth, you drive at 15mph without stopping and your toll is charged to your account. Relieves traffic quite a bit. So toll booths dont make things a hundred times worse! Its probably just stupid people rummaging in their bags as they get to the window that slows things up.

bonkey

Originally posted by ringzer
I agree that people may have problems paying for roads that are EU funded, but any future roads will have to be paid for in other ways ie tolls.

Ah yes, but the funding of future roads is a seperate issue, unless we decide that the solution to our traffic problems is simply to build more roads.

However, in the states and in most other countries I reckon, they have electronic toll booths. You sign up and get a device that you stick to the windscreen. When you get to the toll booth, you drive at 15mph without stopping and your toll is charged to your account. Relieves traffic quite a bit.

I believe they did discuss implementing this in Dublin some time ago. I can't remember why, but there were some reasons for not going with the idea.

Its probably just stupid people rummaging in their bags as they get to the window that slows things up.

And those stupid people are the ones suffering from the congestion as well??? Come on...stupid drivers, incompetent politicians....its beginning to seem that everyone involved must be stupid one way or another in order hold to the belief that its not a difficult problem!!!

Anyone who uses a toll-road regularly will have a stack of coins / tokens ready. These people already minimise the "start-stop" time. The problem is the choke-point effect. If you force even a reduction to 15MPH, then you start to build up a tail-back as the volume of traffic overloads the small area with extra lanes set up for a toll booth. With enough sustained volume, the tailback hits the road proper, at which point it "accelerates" backwards at a rate proportional to the volume of traffic. Once/if a tailback reaches the previous exit, the problem increases in scale, as more traffic is forced into the catchment.

Yes, a significant increase in roads (number of lanes, number of roads etc. etc.) would be a solution, but just how much are we talking about? How many roads, and how much money? How much more traffic will we suffer by the time those roads are built? Remember, that to avoid the problems we face today from re-occurring, we need to plan for the traffic volume of 20 or 30 years time, not just for today. How many lanes does that require?

The ultimate conclusion would appear to be that just building more roads is simply not a viable solution - even ignoring the fact that in and around Dublin there is often no space in which to build them where they are needed.

I've already mentioned the low population density in Dublin, and resultant massive footprint of the city. Consider also that Ireland has the highest house-ownership percentages in Europe. So while in many European cities, people may be more inclined to move across town to a new (rented) flat/apartment in order to be closer to their work, in Ireland you are more likely to see people doing long commutes from where they could afford to buy a house to wherever they happen to be working.

Its not a simple problem. It doesn't have simple answers. Yes, something needs to be done, but any kneejerk assumptions of "X is obviously a good/better solution" are - quite honestly - probably wrong.

jc

sovtek

Originally posted by bonkey
Ah yes, but the funding of future roads is a seperate issue, unless we decide that the solution to our traffic problems is simply to build more roads.

While Ireland needs more road capacity (especially in Dublin city) to meet the needs of a modern city, it isn't the long term solution...that is..of course public transport infrastructure.
More lanes means more cars to fill them.

I've said this before...get some Germans over here and let 'em sort it out.

Qadhafi

Quote
The ultimate conclusion would appear to be that just building more roads is simply not a viable solution - even ignoring the fact that in and around Dublin there is often no space in which to build them where they are needed.

I have to totally agree. Im not saying the motorways being built are not the answer. Yes build them but essentially they are part solution and they are for the private car. What the country needs is effective public transport and high speed intercity rail.

Someone mentioned that upgrading all the interchanges to proper flyover type ones. Thats something which should be undertaken immediately.

interchanges


Whatever happened to the Dublin Eastern Bypass?? That was meant to built by PPP and would really sort the problems on the M-50

sovtek

Thanks for that link Q, I've been wondering for several posts what the hell a "flyover" is.

"...but do you know what the cool thing is....the little differences".

Qadhafi

hey if i had an ariel photo of the RedMad cow roundabout i could select the overchange myself:D The mad cow is obviously the busiest junction in the country and why they didnt build a proper interchange is beyond me.

Ireland obviously doesnt have the technical expertese to build large infastructre projects, the Luas was a good lesson though and €1bn isnt a total waste of money. All the interchanges on the M-50 need to be upgraded and the road itself widened to 4 lanes each way. I dont know if they have enough room to do that though or what the cost would be :eek:


Can they get it right for the Metro?

oneweb

Was in Paris for a while (not long enough, tbh) The metro in particular, and how well it's integrated into rail and bus connections was just fantastic. They even have a 100% automatic (driverless) metro line, which was sweeet The metro is frequent (max we were waiting was 7minutes, average was 2 minutes) uber-fast and uber-efficient.

To come home and have to wait 30 minutes for a bus into the city center, ffs! just made me wanna walk back into the terminal and catch a plane out of the country for good

OK, so many of their tunnels were built a century ago, but with the technology available today, surely Dublin could get something decent done?

Let's hope a proper Dublin Metro can be properly planned and properly implemented in the not-too-distant future! (and if it does go underground, that it'll fit! :rolleyes:

Lennoxschips

I am a Civil Engineer and work in Amsterdam for the department of Spatial Development and Transport, and the last thing Dublin needs is to widen the M50. EVERY TIME A ROAD IS WIDENED, THE TRAFFIC INCREASES, AND THE JAMS DO NOT GO AWAY. Every European country has realised this, but in Dublin people still seem to think that more asphalt is the answer to all our problems.

People are saying that Dublin needs to become a major European player. One of Dublin's selling points is it's coastal location and sea views from certain areas. So why then do people want to build a "Dublin-East" bypass? The coast needs to be developed into a marina style boardwalk area, not turned into a motorway!

What Dublin needs is an intelligent usage of existing roads, through a good use of one way systems and proper, safe junctions, which clear markings and lanes for turning. Too many Irish traffic light road junctions look like they have been thought up of at the last minute. The Kinsale Roundabout in Cork comes to mind. However, even without a flyover they should have been able to do a better job there then they did. That roundabout was was a traffic mess waiting to happen. Why is it that similar roundabouts in Holland where dual carriageways meet are much safer and logical? It has nothing to do with money, and a lot to do with creating and enforcing national standards.

Dublin also needs to give public transport a priority. Ok, LUAS is a good idea in principle, but you get the feeling it was built because some TD somewhere thought it would be cool if Dublin had some trams, without actually considering the point of the thing. As somebody said earlier, dedicated bus lanes and corridors would have done the same job for a lot cheaper.

I also read somewhere that there is an existing rail ringline between Connolly station and Heuston, but it is never used. (The Phoenix park tunnel) The first and most obvious thing to do would be to upgrade this to a DART style light rail facility, and it would cost half nothing, because all the infrastructure is there! I'm sure it would be a very popular service if put into use.

What is needed is an integrated transport plan (not just roads, but all transport) that gets all the small things right, which will eventually lead to a good product overall. The Roads authority and Rail authority should be merged into one. People should be able to use the same tickets on the bus, luas and DART. Timetables need to be synchronised. A proper, integrated public transport map of Dublin needs to be released to the public. Even some proper footpaths and cycle lanes would help. Yet new neighbourhoods and roads are still built with tack on footpaths and no cycle lanes. These are all the small things that would make a huge difference.

Similarily, while 250 km/hour trains from Dublin to Cork would be nice, why don't we concentrate on getting what we have working properly first? Upgrage the rolling stock, electrify existing track, and install a decent 150 km/hour system. Ok, it's no TGV, but it would be a robust, reliable and clean system, and do wonders for making the rural areas accessible.

More and bigger motorways won't solve anything, but they do get the votes of car owners. This is the sad truth behind Ireland's transport policy. In the 1990s we had the money and the oppurtunity to start from scratch and build a public transport system that would have been the envy of Europe. Instead we built roads everywhere. Take Cork for example, does anybody seriously think the ring road and tunnel system has improved city life there? Does a small town like Ballincollig really need a motorway going to it? If anything, things have gotten worse. A proper tram and bus system would have done a much better job and lasted much longer.

bonkey

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
Similarily, while 250 km/hour trains from Dublin to Cork would be nice, why don't we concentrate on getting what we have working properly first? Upgrage the rolling stock, electrify existing track, and install a decent 150 km/hour system.

Not to mention re-laying a vast majority of the track in the first place....

I was on the Dublin-Cork line recently, and I couldn't believe how much the carriages were wobbling from side-to-side, even on the so-called straight.

Trying to get from the bar back to my table with 2 drinks was an absolute nightmare!!!

Seriously - while it might seem like a small complaint, the difference in getting a 3-hour train trip across Swizxerland and the same in Ireland is massive. In fairness, the quality of the carriages is roughly comparable, but the major difference is just how damned smooth the ride over here is.

If Ireland want their rail system to be improved, teh first thing they need to do is bring their track up to late 20th century standards. 21st century standards and high-speed trains can wait for a few decades to be honest.

jc