1 Month in Jail

Boston

rainyday, your wrong about the taxes. When you say we are not heavily taxed compared with most other european countries, you should say direct taxes. We pay some of the lowests rates of direct taxes and some of the highest rates of indirect taxes. As for tax relief, not everyone can clam that.

Sparks

Originally posted by RainyDay
Hi Sparks - The two errors were;
1)
in relation to the comment "We are not heavily taxed compared to EU tax rates."
It is true.
2)
There is tax relief on the waste charges.

Okay, but 1) was incorrect as I said "I'm not sure that's true" as opposed to "That's wrong", and 2) is wrong because there is no tax relief on the bin charges, there's a small tax relief on local authority charges, which is normally taken by water charges. So there is no tax relief specifically for bin taxes, and the level of general tax relief is tiny anyway - 38 euros from what I've read.

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from Rainy Day
So there was no option available to Joe/Clare other than stopping the bin collections? How about trying the approach of other democratic politicians and gathering support from a majority of the population for their ideas, or would this be out of the question?

Several points to be raised.

A fair size of the population is politically apathetic.

Gathering mass support that rises to the million mark or above doesn't seem to work these days in supposedly democratic nations.

In order to reach any potential supporters, they need to reach them via the radio, the newspapers and they needed an inspiring gesture to enliven the population - stopping the bin trucks, backed by the working class of Fingal was just that.

Any politician who is anti-establishment has several things set against him or her and the first is the whole establishment itself, from Fingal County Council where Ms Daly was shouted down to the Dail itself where several TD's are seeking to censor Joe Higgins.

No amount of doing this 'by the book' would have mattered a damn and Joe would have been overridden, not by the will of the people but by the sheer apathy and laziness of many of the people and by the media spin put on the whole issue with phrases such as 'political grandstanding' being bandied around.

Cork

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan


This is not ultimately about some stupid tax - the government of the Republic has introduced so many taxes in the last four years that I have lost count. The creation of a double taxation is preparation for a privatisation that will make no dent in the governmental coffers while at the same time, farming out the public sector waste collection to a private company who will cut workers wages and deplete the service.

People outside Dublin have been paying refuse charges for years. Why all this publicity in Dublin? It is about time Dublin people copped on.

In my area - private company collects refuse. If people want they waste collected they have to pay for it.

Joe Higgins & Co are ignoring the point that private companies in many areas collect refuse. Is the government to start collecting rubbish up every boreen in the country?

I think that we have a dependency culture - people expect water, housing, roads, lighting, sewerage etc from local authories without paying any thing for it. Business pay rates. Business pay for refuse. Yet the private indivual should get their refuse collected for free?

Each year a rate is struck - Why should business make up a shortfall of people not paying for their refuse?

If people don't want a service - they should not pay for it. Look at the local taxes in the UK under the socialists.

The whole double taxation rate ignores a number of facts:
Bin Charges are tax deductable.
The Polluter Pays Principle - The government should pay to dispose of rubbish in xyz estate?
Waiver schemes for OAPs and those on social welfare operated by certain local authories.

When the smoke clears - people don't want to pay for their rubbish to be disposed.

Nobody wants to pay tax - but services need to be provided. General taxation should not be raised to pay for bin changers refuse.

Tax rates today are much lower than they were when the socialists were in power with FG. Socialits across the EU have supported local taxes. The EU seemingly supports even the notion of water taxes.

If general taxation was to pay for every thing our taxes would be similar to those say in Sweeden.

Does Joe Higgins & Co want this? He should have been fined. The IFA were a number of years ago for their blockade of meat factories.
The state are paying for his month in prison. That is the PAYE worker .

joe bloggs

whats the problem why dont people pay for rubbish collections nearly every other county around ireland pays rubbish charges and all the jobs are in dublin so there should have no problems paying for rubbish do dublins pay for their water ??? i agree with Cork

Éomer of Rohan

That is the most outrageous crap I have read since reading the Irish Times earlier today.

Quoted from Cork
Tax rates today are much lower than they were when the socialists were in power with FG. Socialits across the EU have supported local taxes. The EU seemingly supports even the notion of water taxes.

There are socialists and there are social democrats or social reformists. I suggest you learn the difference between them. Trying to blanket ANY form of socialist movement with Fine Gael displays nothing short of ignorance.

People outside Dublin pay water charges too from what I hear - does the fact that it exists, does the fact that it is the status quo mean it is right? No.

If victorious in Dublin, why not a national campaign? Though of course, there is no way in hell that the government will back down, simply none - especially not after the comments of the Irish Environment minister in todays papers.

Quoted from Cork
I think that we have a dependency culture - people expect water, housing, roads, lighting, sewerage etc from local authories without paying any thing for it. Business pay rates. Business pay for refuse. Yet the private indivual should get their refuse collected for free?

Business produces a greater amount of waste than the total domestic waste per annum for Ireland and yet businesses can apply for tax rebates. What utter s**t. Business are the major polluters, they should pay. The Irish people pay their bit through the rates and through an extra cent or two on their income tax.

If a dependency culture means that we do not trust our government and we are willing to defy them as is our responsibility in a democracy, in a non-violent and valid manner then I am proud to say that some people do take that attitude.

In short Cork, if you don't want to pay a specified bin tax, then get your ass out on the street and do something about it, otherwise, allow the people who actually care, whether from Dublin or not, to get on with it - and for that matter, many of the crowds in Dublin today were not FROM Dublin but were from other parts of the Irish Republic in rejection of the system that was forced on them by a government that is corrupt by any standards.

Biffa Bacon

Joe Higgins and Clare Daly went to jail because they broke the law. They can't have any complaints, unless they consider themselves above the law.

Sparks

Cork,

People outside Dublin have been paying refuse charges for years. Why all this publicity in Dublin? It is about time Dublin people copped on.

In other words, you're so pissed off at the idea that it'd be a dublin area that protests first, that you'd rather everyone suffer rather than fixing the situation?
Tell me Cork, does the expression cutting your nose off to spite your face mean anything to you?
:rolleyes:

In my area - private company collects refuse. If people want they waste collected they have to pay for it.

Ditto here. The difference is we can shop around and get a good price. And it's still unfair - if you're going to pay for it from taxes, you ought to be giving tax relief for people that either pay private companies or those that pay their local council. Otherwise, you're paying money to central government to pay for a service that isn't provided to you and which you're paying someone else to provide as well.

I think that we have a dependency culture - people expect water, housing, roads, lighting, sewerage etc from local authories without paying any thing for it.

Wrong. That's not what is being protested, it's not what's happening, and if you honestly think that that's the case, you don't understand the situation and should go learn about it before posting again.

Business pay rates. Business pay for refuse. Yet the private indivual should get their refuse collected for free?

And you think that Businesses should be treated like individuals? So tell me Cork, how many votes should a company get? How much tax should they pay?
Companies operate under different rules than individuals for a reason and it's highly disingenous (or just stupid) to use those different rules as an argument as you just did.

If people don't want a service - they should not pay for it.

Amen.
Now, given that the people paid for the bin removal in their income taxes, and then didn't get the service, what do you recommend?
Suing the government?
And who'll pay for that then?

The whole double taxation rate ignores a number of facts:
Bin Charges are tax deductable.

Wrong. They're not. Did you read the posts I put up before you put yours up?
BIN CHARGES ARE NOT TAX DEDUCTABLE!!!

The Polluter Pays Principle - The government should pay to dispose of rubbish in xyz estate?

Nope. Local taxes and the polluter pays principle are the best and fairest ways to pay for waste removal - but when you are forced to pay central government for the service first, why the hell would you pay someone else to provide it as well???

Waiver schemes for OAPs and those on social welfare operated by certain local authories.

Whoop. That's what we call a social obligation Cork - it's not something to hold over the heads of people you're screwing with double taxation, it's something you're obliged to provide.

When the smoke clears - people don't want to pay for their rubbish to be disposed.

Wrong. They don't want to pay twice.

Tax rates today are much lower than they were when the socialists were in power with FG.

As I recall, tax rates had to be high then because of the f*cked-up mess that FF left the economy in with their financial ineptitude. Not because of FG or Labour.

yankinlk

Been reading this a while and just want to state I agree with cork - people out side of dublin like us think you all are nuts.

you are being asked to pay less than us to have the rubbish that you create collected. We want the system you are fighting to be offered here (limerick for example) - if i make rubbish, i pay for it. Currently if i go on vacation i still pay.

I would be happy to support joe and his followers if they were fighting for something that makes sense like "more recycling" .

I recently switched to a bin company that only charges me for my waste NOT MY RECYCLING and now i pay less (tipperary) because my rubbish bin is only collected every two weeks. While at first I was skeptical I have found that my recycling bin is twice as full as my rubbish bin. I hope they eventually offer me the choice of only collecting my rubbish once a month now.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Sparks


Wrong. They're not. Did you read the posts I put up before you put yours up?
BIN CHARGES ARE NOT TAX DEDUCTABLE!!!

Sparks, I suggest you read the following...

Tax relief on domestic service charges

A small excerpt:

Originally quoted by www.oasis.gov.ie


Tax relief is available if you pay local authority and other service charges in Ireland. This relief is granted to those who pay their service charges in full and on time in the previous calendar year. The decision as to whether or not you have paid your charges in full and on time is a matter for your local authority to decide.

From 2002, there is no restriction on the amount of tax relief that is allowable except when you purchase "tags" from an independent contractor or from your local authority. In this instance (i.e., where you purchase "tags", the amount of tax relief you can claim is restricted to 195 euro per year).

You will not obtain any tax relief when paying arrears for domestic service charges.

All the various service charges that you pay to your local authority for the following services qualify for tax relief:

1. Provision of domestic refuse collections, domestic sewage disposal and domestic water supplies from your local authority
2. All service charges paid by you to group water schemes for domestic water supplies and,
3. All service charges paid to independent contractors for domestic refuse collection.

Also try the following link from the Revenue Commissioners.

Revenue

Quite simply, you are wrong. Now stop shouting.

Cork

Business produces a greater amount of waste than the total domestic waste per annum for Ireland and yet businesses can apply for tax rebates. What utter s**t. Business are the major polluters, they should pay.
[/B]

Business are the major polluters and should pay. Households also produce much waste. Yet general taxation should foot their bill.

Business's pay tax and rates. Yet - people who pay a 15c plastic bag levy and get their rubbish collected for free. What encourages people to go to the recycling bank - if their rubbish is collected for free?

I don't think there is sufficent landfill space even in Dublin. Much of Dublin's waste is dumped into landfills in other counties.

Landfill is no solution. Those protesting need to bring their rubbish to recycling centres.

Wrong. They don't want to pay twice.

People who pay bin charges are not paying twice. Do you maintain when households were paying rates and high levels of direct income tax in the 70's they were paying twice.

Road tax was abolished and then re-introduced. Did people make the same arguement. When something was "free" - it is hard to pay for it.

The battle of the working man arguement is 100% claptrap. Easily known local elections are on the horizon.

Services need to be provided by funding. The Irish worker does not want high personal taxation.

RainyDay

As for tax relief, not everyone can clam that.

Boston - Here we go again. :mad: Anyone who pays tax can claim tax relief. Anyone who doesn't can use the waiver system. Stick to the facts, will ya?

Originally posted by Boston
i'm discussed to see anybody gettign a month in jail for such a meaningless thing while drug dealers walk my streets due to lack of resources

The difference is the evidence.
The law is paramount here.
Of course Joe Higgins and Claire Daly must be jailed if they are openly and without cover in front of newspaper photoraphers breaking the law.
The law would most certainly be an ASS if they weren't subjected to it for that.

Many Drug dealers including those that are on the streets do , often go to jail for multiple periods.
Some aren't caught, but that doesn't mean the law is not or will not be applied to them once they are caught.

The Drug dealers are not inviting press photographer to withness the breaking of the law.
They are not setting stalls up on Moore street shouting Ten fixes for a pound , they are engaging in their activities with at least some degree of subtlety which makes it more difficult for them to be caught.
Thats the difference between, their Breaking of the law and that of the bin protesters.

But both equally and legally deserve their punishment.

mm

Sparks

Originally posted by therecklessone
Quite simply, you are wrong. Now stop shouting.

Incorrect reckless. That tax relief is for all service charges, as I previously said. There is no tax relief for bin taxes. Maybe if you actually read what I wrote before saying I'm wrong?
I mean, that's the second time that that's happened in this thread alone!
(And by the way, if you pay an independent contractor to haul away your bins and the local authority for water charges and so on, you can only claim tax relief on one of those bills, according to the revenue commissioners.)

yankinlk,
Marvellous. Why doesn't anyone want to listen?
The protest is over paying for the service twice, not over the service itself!

Cork

Business are the major polluters and should pay. Households also produce much waste. Yet general taxation should foot their bill.

No, no, no. Did you even bother to read the reply I wrote specifically to you?

People who pay bin charges are not paying twice.

Yes they are. Once in income tax and once in direct local tax, which is not going to be covered in tax relief because it's paid for under the tags system which means that once the total service bill goes over 195 euros (which happens rather fast Cork), there is no tax relief.
Ergo, double taxation.

Do you maintain when households were paying rates and high levels of direct income tax in the 70's they were paying twice.

Yes, cork they were. But that's not really relevant because that was 30 years ago and half the people running and living in the country then are dead and buried now. So how about you look at the situation people are living in right now and see whether or not it makes any sense?

Services need to be provided by funding.

*sigh*
Yes cork, correct. As everyone is saying, including the protestors. What they're protesting is funding that service twice.
And fair play to them for not bending over and grabbing their ankles when told to do so - it'll benefit everyone else in the country in the long run.
So long as we don't let people like you cut our nose off to spite our face, that is.

RainyDay,

Boston - Here we go again. Anyone who pays tax can claim tax relief. Anyone who doesn't can use the waiver system. Stick to the facts, will ya?

He is sticking to them. You can't claim tax relief on a tags-based system over the 195 euro limit, that limit is for all services, not just bin charges, and if you pay both local authority and an independent contractor, you can only get tax relief on one, and it's always going to be the local authority because they charge more.

Cork

I pay VHI (a state company) - this is state owned - I should not pay for it. ESB, An Post & Bus Eireann are all examples of this. I pay tax already. This should cover my bus, post and electricity charges. I am paying for these already thru my income tax.

The same goes for bin charges. People around the country are paying for rubbish for 10 or 15 years.

Anything that is free is abused. Costs of landfill have rocketed. Yet these people expect their rubbish to be carted away for free.

Rates traditionally funded local authorities not general taxation. So on both environomental and historical arguements - the no bin charges arguement does not hold water.

What part of the polluters pay principle do these socialists disagree with? George W would be only delighted with them.

In conclusion. Motor tax was abolished and re-introduced. Are we paying for this twice?

It would be great if everything was free. It would be great if government paid for everything but tax rates would rocket.

I think local authorities are getting out of refuse collection. Companies like NTR are getting involved in this area. Should they do it for free?

Yes, cork they were. But that's not really relevant because that was 30 years ago and half the people running and living in the country then are dead and buried now. So how about you look at the situation people are living in right now and see whether or not it makes any sense?

Households paid rates to local authorities. Rates were a charge. Bin charges were not free in the 1970s.

General taxation can't pay for everything. Irish people don't want the tax rates of the 80's and early 90's.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
I pay VHI (a state company) - this is state owned - I should not pay for it. ESB, An Post & Bus Eireann are all examples of this. I pay tax already. This should cover my bus, post and electricity charges. I am paying for these already thru my income tax.

Actually cork, what you're paying for there is the social mandate that those companies have as a mandatory part of their operation.
Now, if (for example), the ESB did not have a social mandate to provide power to anyone in the country that asks for it, for a fixed installation fee, irregardless of how much it costs to install that power cable, then yes, you'd have a very legitimate grievance.
As a prime example, look at the Black Valley in Kerry. Someone there requested a telephone from Telecom Eireann, but cables couldn't be run down into the place, so a microwave tower was built to link the valley with the rest of the phone network. Total cost was measured in the tens of thousands of pounds, total charge was the normal connection fee (I think it was around the 1-200 pound mark, I'm afraid I can't remember the exact charge).
Now a private company would have happily done the same job - but they'd have charged you for the full installation cost. We decided when Telecom Eireann was set up as the P&T department that that was unacceptable as it disciminated against people on the basis of where they lived and so the social mandate was put in place. And that is what your taxes pay for, not the phone calls you make or the power you use.

The same goes for bin charges. People around the country are paying for rubbish for 10 or 15 years.

Correct. Priests have also being raping children for years. So should the "we've always done it this way" argument have any weight?

Yet these people expect their rubbish to be carted away for free.

Hello?
<raps knuckles on cork's head>
Anyone home?
This is the third time I've said this specifically to you cork, No they don't. They expect not to pay twice for the one thing. Which is how I got raised to manage my finances, while living in the country, so it seems quite eminently reasonable to me.
But if you have enough money to go paying for things twice, go right ahead... just don't expect us to keep up with you, thanks.

What part of the polluters pay principle do these socialists disagree with?

Dear grief.
NONE OF IT.
They disagree with the "Polluter Pays Twice" routine they're being shafted with.

Irish people don't want the tax rates of the 80's and early 90's.

But if we allow this sort of double taxation to continue, not only will we have the bad old days of 50%+ taxation come 2007, we'll have another 20% taken off by local authorities for something that we've already paid the central government for in the first place!

Originally posted by Sparks

This is the third time I've said this specifically to you cork, No they don't. They expect not to pay twice for the one thing. Which is how I got raised to manage my finances, while living in the country, so it seems quite eminently reasonable to me.
But if you have enough money to go paying for things twice, go right ahead... just don't expect us to keep up with you, thanks.

Could you explain to me where I as a taxpayer, living outside Dublin am paying twice for my refuse to be collected.
The proportion of my income paid in direct taxes has reduced considerably in the last 15 years.
In the same time my local schools, roads and other infrastructure have improved markedly.
I know what I am paying for the waste collection service and can opt out of it at any time to an alternative.
If my job/lifestyle entails very little rubbish creation I save money with the poluter pays principle.
It also encourages me to continue in that way.
Thats good in my view.

mm

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks

This is the third time I've said this specifically to you cork, No they don't. They expect not to pay twice for the one thing. Which is how I got raised to manage my finances, while living in the country, so it seems quite eminently reasonable to me.
But if you have enough money to go paying for things twice, go right ahead... just don't expect us to keep up with you, thanks.


Dear grief.
NONE OF IT.
They disagree with the "Polluter Pays Twice" routine they're being shafted with.


But if we allow this sort of double taxation to continue, not only will we have the bad old days of 50%+ taxation come 2007, we'll have another 20% taken off by local authorities for something that we've already paid the central government for in the first place!

So, when people were paying household rates - they were paying double taxation. This is a new one to me. People had to pay rates. They had no choice but to pay them. This was a payment to the local authority.

Commercial business pays:
Commercial Refuse Charges
Water Rates
Income Tax
Commercial Rates

Are they paying 4 times too much tax?

The local authority never collected our road at home. It is collected by a private company. There is no "waiver scheme" for the old or those on social welfare for those that private companys collect from.

Some Local Authorities operate such schemes. But general taxation does not cover all local government services.

Apply for a driving licence or pay motor tax - Is this too double taxation?

Sparks

Cork, you can cite examples from thirty years ago, you can cite examples that are totally unrelated, you can even type in complete nonsense (driving licences and motor tax? Hello?), but the fact remains, It is double taxation and that is what the protestors are protesting against.
Now, how about you actually address that instead of kerfuffling all over the place?

Cork

This double taxation arguement is a little quirky. This ignores the point that local authories were not always funded by central government.

Rates should never been abolished. Neither should motor tax.

They brought back motor tax but is there anybody hightlighing that this is double taxation?

I saw an RTE programme once on people protesting aganist income tax. They maintained that they pay vat on everything they buy - why should they pay income tax.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
Cork, you can cite examples from thirty years ago

Rates paid for domestic bin collection prior to 1977. Rates were foolishly abolished.

This blows the double taxation arguement out of the water.

Originally posted by Sparks
Cork, you can cite examples from thirty years ago, you can cite examples that are totally unrelated, you can even type in complete nonsense (driving licences and motor tax? Hello?), but the fact remains, It is double taxation and that is what the protestors are protesting against.
Now, how about you actually address that instead of kerfuffling all over the place?

He's raised some valid points actually which you are not answering, from what I am reading.
Could you tell me how, I am being taxed more now than I would have been 10 or 15 years ago?
The bin lorries are certainly collecting much more rubbish than they were back then, over a much wider area and from a lot more houses.
Even the VAT rates are lower today.
If you disagree with , the various Dublin council's decisions to follow the rest of the countries lead in effecient waste management , then you should take that up with your local councillors/T.D's and not be supporting anarchic behaviour by a minority.

mm

Sparks

So let me see if I have this straight.
The protestors are saying that it's wrong to be charged twice for one service.
And you two are saying that that argument is rubbish because we've always been charged twice for services.

That about the gist of it, is it?

If so, please go inform those claiming compensation under the Laffoy tribunal that they shouldn't do so because the church always used to abuse children. And next time you're stopped for speeding, let the garda know that people are always speeding so you should be left off. Oh, and next time you break the law at all, let whomever catches you know that people break the law all the time and that therefore you should be let go.

Pah.

The fact is that the situation is wrong and they're the only ones trying to get it fixed. You two are what normally get labelled as "begrudgers". Are you telling me that the idea of not paying income tax towards hauling other people's rubbish away while you pay for your own rubbish hauling yourself doesn't strike you as incorrect? Because that's what they're protesting...

Originally posted by Sparks
Are you telling me that the idea of not paying income tax towards hauling other people's rubbish away while you pay for your own rubbish hauling yourself doesn't strike you as incorrect? Because that's what they're protesting... [/B]

They are protesting against the correction of that situation, which is wrong in my and most other peoples opinion.
As well as against as I stated earlier the situation whereby:

I know what I am paying for the waste collection service and can opt out of it at any time to an alternative.If my job/lifestyle entails very little rubbish creation I save money with the poluter pays principle.
It also encourages me to continue in that way.

Look at it another way and using the same kind of logic.
you are asking seven out of ten householders to pay for their own rubbish to be collected in as effecient a manner possible ( ie the poluter pays principal ) and to pay unfairly for the collection of the rubbish the other 30% create aswell, when they should be paying for that on their own.
That system works as the plastic bag tax clearly shows.

mm

Sparks

Originally posted by Man
They are protesting against the correction of that situation, which is wrong in my and most other peoples opinion.

That isn't what they're protesting about. Good grief, how often does it need to be repeated? They're protesting over the double taxation they're being shafted with. And if the average intelligence level in this country was a few points higher, we'd be protesting as well instead of sniping against them.

Look at it another way and using the same kind of logic.
you are asking seven out of ten householders to pay for their own rubbish to be collected in as effecient a manner possible ( ie the poluter pays principal ) and to pay unfairly for the collection of the rubbish the other 30% create aswell, when they should be paying for that on their own.

For heaven's sake Man, if you're going to argue with me, you need to listen to what I say! What you have just described is exactly what the Fingal protestors are protesting against.
They've paid for their waste collection through their income tax and now the local authority wants them to pay again, without tax relief. They're saying that that's wrong. They're saying that they only want to pay once. And you seem to be saying that they're wrong to protest because it's wrong to pay twice, which isn't just confusing, it's a specious argument!

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks

They've paid for their waste collection through their income tax and now the local authority wants them to pay again, without tax relief. They're saying that that's wrong. They're saying that they only want to pay once. And you seem to be saying that they're wrong to protest because it's wrong to pay twice, which isn't just confusing, it's a specious argument!

Irish people never paid for their refuse collection thru their income tax. If they have, local authorities would have to have been responsible for refuse collection throughout the entire country. In my area - the local authority never collected refuse.

You you imagine local authorities going up hills and down valleys collecting refuse from every tax payer. This never happened.

From the hills of Donegal to Kilgarvan - local Autorities never were obliegged to collect refuse thru out the country. This was also the case prior to 1977 - when we had rates.

There was never a universal bin collection service in Ireland. Paying twice? Maybe some urban areas had the service - the vast area outside did not.

Now - THE ENVIRONMENT
Stuffing as much rubbish into a bin is also wrong. The biggest cost of rubbish disposal is landfill. Ireland is running out of landfill sites. We need to:
Reduce
Re-Use
Recycle

In West Cork – Your rubbish bin is weighed and you are billed accordingly every 2 months. Every 2 months you get a bill in the door. Your rubbish was 4 kilos and your charge is €y.

This encourages recycling. If you don’t go down to the bring centres – you will get higher bills.

I think the sooner local authorities adopt this schemes like this the better. The days of putting out bins filled to the rim are numbered away.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Sparks
Incorrect reckless. That tax relief is for all service charges, as I previously said. There is no tax relief for bin taxes. Maybe if you actually read what I wrote before saying I'm wrong?
I mean, that's the second time that that's happened in this thread alone!
(And by the way, if you pay an independent contractor to haul away your bins and the local authority for water charges and so on, you can only claim tax relief on one of those bills, according to the revenue commissioners.)

Sparks, a few things spring to mind.

Firstly, the tax relief is for all service charges, including your domestic refuse collection, either by the local authority or by private contractors. What part of that is hard to understand. That means you can claim tax relief on bin charges!!!! Now, the oasis.gov.ie link also includes the following important information:

From 2002, there is no restriction on the amount of tax relief that is allowable except when you purchase "tags" from an independent contractor or from your local authority. In this instance (i.e., where you purchase "tags", the amount of tax relief you can claim is restricted to 195 euro per year

That means that, unless you avail of a tag system, then the entire sum you pay in domestic service charges (defined as "domestic refuse collections, domestic sewage disposal and domestic water supplies from your local authority, all service charges paid by you to group water schemes for domestic water supplies and, all service charges paid to independent contractors for domestic refuse collection" domestic service charges )is eligible for tax relief. That's all three, not either or...

If you happen to avail of a tag system, then the limit for the purpose of tax relief is €195...that is 39 tags at €5 (charged by Fingal County Council in areas which have kerbside recycling collection), and 65 tags at €3 (for those areas which do not have the green bins yet). Regardless, if you are recycling or not, that €195 should cover your year's waste disposal. I cannot speak for other county councils, maybe someone else can provide concrete figures...

As for your final point from the quote I choose, I concede the point regarding the fact that relief can only be claimed for "tags" or "a specified annual charge", but not both. It is unfair, and is certainly something which should change.

Now, having read that, are you denying that I can claim tax relief on the domestic refuse charges that I incur for this tax year? Because if you are, then you are wrong. Since I live in a local authority which employs bin tags, I can claim relief on a maximum of €195 paid, which is more than adequate. And I live in the same local authority area that Clare Daly and Joe Higgins do, in fact Clare Daly represents my ward in Fingal County Council.

Your thoughts?

p.s. I include an example provided in the Revenue document I suggested you read. It deals with a person who does not use bin tags...

“A” was liable for, and paid the following service charges in the calendar year 2001:
Domestic refuse disposal to independent contractor (specific charge) £ 120
Domestic water supply to group water scheme. £ 80
Domestic services to local authority. £ 50
Total £ 250
“A” also owes arrears to the local authority of £ 100
To qualify for tax relief of £ 250 @ 20% “A” must, in addition to the £ 250, pay
whatever amount of the arrears are specified by the local authority. There is no
relief for payment of arrears.
Relief of £ 250 will be given in the tax year 2002.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Sparks
That isn't what they're protesting about. Good grief, how often does it need to be repeated? They're protesting over the double taxation they're being shafted with. And if the average intelligence level in this country was a few points higher, we'd be protesting as well instead of sniping against them.

As has been pointed out by others Sparks, general taxation did not always pay for refuse collection...in fact, in some areas it never did...so reintroducing service charges is not so much a double taxation, just a return to the previous system of paying national tax and local rates.

In addition, it is in the interests of us all to encourage recycling. If the result of charging people for waste management is a reduction in domestic waste then that is a good thing. You will no doubt claim we already pay for it, but the reality is that if general taxation is used to pay for waste disposal, then it is not as obvious to the individual that they are producing too much waste. However, when you pay directly for waste disposal, then it is far clearer.

Would you prefer that the exchequer funded waste disposal throughout the country? I imagine that would leave a sizeable hole in the budget this year...which other services would you like to see cut back to balance the books?

Originally posted by Sparks
That isn't what they're protesting about. Good grief, how often does it need to be repeated? They're protesting over the double taxation they're being shafted with. And if the average intelligence level in this country was a few points higher, we'd be protesting as well instead of sniping against them.

Re-Read what I said, I'll paraphrase:
the Councils want all] to pay for the new system on the same basis as the majority clearly agree , rubbish collection costs should be paid.
I'm with the masses on that one.
I'll pass no comment on your opinion on the inteligence level of the rest of the country:rolleyes:

They've paid for their waste collection through their income tax and now the local authority wants them to pay again, without tax relief. They're saying that that's wrong.

Thats where they are wrong,because if you proportion it out correctly, I and the majority of people who agree with this system, are paying for the collection of somebody elses rubbish (ie the minority in dublin who refuse to pay) to be collected.
It is that majority who are paying twice , and by their protest those who don't want Bin charges in Dublin are arguing for that situation to continue.
Both that, and the strangulation of the poluter pays effeciecies is whats wrong.

mm

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
They've paid for their waste collection through their income tax and now the local authority wants them to pay again, without tax relief.

Has anyone actually produced the figures showing government expenditure on waste collection etc. in recent years, indicating that taxpayers have been paying for it, or is this just an assumption that because you weren't being charged rates prior to this that it must have been from your income tax?

On a side issue - which has resulted in some people getting dangerously heated in their language previously - I would tend to agree with the people saying that this is some sort of typical Dublinism.

The complaints are not that the government is doing something wrong, but rather that the government is doing something wrong to you.

For example, it is an undisputed fact that people down the country often have no state-provided refuse collection. However, when this is brought up to the Dubliners complaining about their new charges the attitude returned is typically "doesn't mean its right. If we can get our bins for free, you might realise that you might be able to make a stand too". I haven't seen or heard of one protestor in Dublin insisting in rubbish collection for every individual in the nation. No....they are campaigning that it is a right and therefore they are entitled to it. Not everyone, mind...wouldn't want to complain for that....just themselves.

And thats the nub of the matter to me. You have a minority of the population campaigning for a non-existant right to be restored, despite it never actually existing in the first place, and they are campaigning that it should be applied to them, as opposed to all. And when they get criticised for it, the reaction is "well you should be doing the same thing too".

I'm just curious...this is a minority complaining about the removal of what was (in reality) a privilege only ever extended to some. How large does such a majority need to be before you guys consider it to be automatically right as would appear to be the case here? Would 10,000 people do it? 1,000? 100? 10?

Because lets face it...you're not campaigning for hte law to be applied equally to all. You're complaining that a law which gave you an advantage over many others has been changed to remove that advantage, and that doing so is both wrong and depriving you of your rights.

Yes - these are not the most politely balanced questions that I could ask, but quite frankly, I don't see a hell of a lot of politess remaining in this thread in the first place, and if I'm going to get shouted at and called names like anyone else daring to question this, then I don't see why I should bother going to any effort to being overly sensitive myself.

jc

The Muppet

With respect I dont think thats what this thread was about. I live in Dublin and have no complaint about paying my Bin Tax. I do have a problem with 2 Public representatve being sent to jail for opposing the charges. I admit they did break the law in doing so but there should be some other way to enforce the law rather that but extra strain on the prison service by jailing these two normally law abiding citizens. Was there prisoners released early or rejected at mountjoy to make room for these two desperados or is the overcrwding in the prison service a myth?

I Thought this is what this thread was about and not weather Dubliners should protest for the whole country or if we could get tax relief for paying our chatges. ?

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from bonkey
Yes - these are not the most politely balanced questions that I could ask, but quite frankly, I don't see a hell of a lot of politess remaining in this thread in the first place, and if I'm going to get shouted at and called names like anyone else daring to question this, then I don't see why I should bother going to any effort to being overly sensitive myself

JC, people ARE shouting about the tax regarding bins across the country but it is focussing on Dublin because that is where the Socialist Party have a large political base.

We have anti-bin tax campaigns in Limerick and Cork too where the youth branches run stalls - but no one seems interested.

In Dublin it is different. This is a new thing in Dublin and the SP are in a position to stop it and beyond that, IF WE WIN, reverse the trend. The fact is that the conditions in Dublin are right for people to feel the need to protest - if the rest of the country felt like joining, as we make very clear in the Voice, then they'd be welcomed with open arms. The water charges are another thing which we looked for support over and only recieved it in Dublin.

Cork and co say that it's right that they should be taxed - their entitled to their point of view - but if people in Dublin don't want to be taxed twice or, for example with regard to water charges, taxed at all then that is their right and it is wrong for people to criticise them when they are standing up for themselves while others did not.

Suspicion of Dubliners must be a southern Irish thing because I have been to several cities in the Republic to help out with the anti-bin tax campaigns recently.

RainyDay

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
A fair size of the population is politically apathetic.

Gathering mass support that rises to the million mark or above doesn't seem to work these days in supposedly democratic nations.

That's democracy , Éomer. It's an imperfect system, and it can be frustrating - but like it or not, the majority rules. It really is worrying if we, as a society, are going to stand idly by as individuals take the law into their own hands.

If you support Joe/Clare's right to stop the the bin trucks, then presumably you also support the right of racists to illegally block any non-caucaisans coming through Dublin Airport, and the rights of Youth Defence to march through primary schools disrupting RSE classes. Or do democratic rights of protest only extend to those whose opinions you agree with?

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
In order to reach any potential supporters, they need to reach them via the radio, the newspapers and they needed an inspiring gesture to enliven the population - stopping the bin trucks, backed by the working class of Fingal was just that.

Any politician who is anti-establishment has several things set against him or her and the first is the whole establishment itself, from Fingal County Council where Ms Daly was shouted down to the Dail itself where several TD's are seeking to censor Joe Higgins.

No amount of doing this 'by the book' would have mattered a damn and Joe would have been overridden, not by the will of the people but by the sheer apathy and laziness of many of the people and by the media spin put on the whole issue with phrases such as 'political grandstanding' being bandied around.

Well, if you can't stand the heat.... It sounds like Joe/Clare took a calculated gamble, and they lost. So they have to pay the price.

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from Rainy Day
If you support Joe/Clare's right to stop the the bin trucks, then presumably you also support the right of racists to illegally block any non-caucaisans coming through Dublin Airport, and the rights of Youth Defence to march through primary schools disrupting RSE classes. Or do democratic rights of protest only extend to those whose opinions you agree with?

Keep repeating 'mind before mouth' to yourself.

First, I do not support what amounts to assault and an attack on civil liberties in the first instance.

The blocking of bin trucks in no way harmed anyone nor did it restrict the civil liberties of anyone - the bin trucks were stopped in areas of greatest support for the anti-bin tax campaign and other cars and so on were allowed to pass. Hell, the Garda were allowed past.

Second, what is RSE?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
... but if people in Dublin don't want to be taxed twice or, for example with regard to water charges, taxed at all then that is their right and it is wrong for people to criticise them when they are standing up for themselves while others did not.

I don't think it is realistic to expect not to be taxed at all for a particular service like water or refuse collection. The question is down to whether the tax is split out in the form of a charge or whether it is included as part of more general taxation.

yankinlk

this is a waste of time, you have bin talking rubbish for too long. vote socialist next election - let them take your trash out, apparently they will do it for free.

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from SkepticOne
The question is down to whether the tax is split out in the form of a charge or whether it is included as part of more general taxation

I disagree but even if it was, again, we have an anti-privatisation / anti-paycuts / anti-public service degradation battle to fight which is just as important.

Quoted from yankinlk
you have bin talking rubbish for too long

LMFAO

Quoted from yankinlk
vote socialist next election

...if you live in Dublin West or North - and if not, get out there and protest.

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan

First, I do not support what amounts to assault and an attack on civil liberties in the first instance.

With Respect, You are missing the point.
One should obey the law and only democratically campaign to change it.
If theres not enough support for the changes you wish for, then you should accept it and get on with life.

Blockading the Bin trucks is not Democratic and it's also dis obeying the law of the land.

RainyDay was asking you if , you are allowed to do that, should other minority groups do similar in order to bully their point of view across.
We would have a state of anarchy.

You give out about, peoples being dis interested in your campaigns, should that not tell you something??
Your dismissal of these people, I find very disconcerting, but then thats in keeping with an anarchial approach which generally finds it's perpetrators silenced in prison rather than outside getting their views across.
Are you going to tell us that peoples right to be dis interested in the way you want Bin costs paid doesn't matter...
We live in a Democracy Éomer.

mm

Éomer of Rohan

Man, try to see things from the point of view of a peaceful anti-establishment political party - much as this is alien to you, I know.

The High Court is a political weapon in the hands of the government - and in this instance it was used to stifle a popular movement by sending the highest profiled members of the movement to jail.

The government could have turned around and agreed to suspend the tax pending negotiation - as would have been the fair and statesman-like thing to do - but they, like Labour with the FBU and the Conservatives before them with the Miners think that if they deal a blow to a worker's movement, then they will put opposition to their reforms back - and they would be right.

The government makes the law and while that government is as corrupt as the one we have, breaking the law, when done for political ends, in a non-violent manner and in an as unobtrusive and inoffensive manner as possible is absolutely viable. If it is in the interest of the people, then so be it.

I railed against the earlier comment because it counter-posed at least one absolutely outrageous and blatantly incorrect parallel - ie, racist violence.

Éomer of Rohan

And I am not limiting my criticism of the apoliticality of many people to the anti-Bin Tax Campaign; that particular criticism covers every area of politics which I regard as a responsibility under a democracy. It is the responsibility of every citizen in every democracy to be as clued up as possible on the politics that pertains to them - even if to them, that is the local Council and nothing more.

bonkey

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
First, I do not support what amounts to assault and an attack on civil liberties in the first instance.

The blocking of bin trucks in no way harmed anyone nor did it restrict the civil liberties of anyone - the bin trucks were stopped...

But hang on a sec Dave....

aren't many people arguing that it is wrong for them to be expected to pay for bins to be collected, because it is their right to have rubbish collected.

And yet, the "fair and just" way of them protesting this is to attempt to deny others this same so-called right???

If protestors are not denying anyone their rights by blocking bin collectors, then having your bin collected isn't a right, and their argument would seem empty.

If having your bin collection is a right, then they are protesting by denying others rights, which then rejustifies the question asked by RainyDay.

JC, people ARE shouting about the tax regarding bins across the country but it is focussing on Dublin because that is where the Socialist Party have a large political base.

We have anti-bin tax campaigns in Limerick and Cork too where the youth branches run stalls - but no one seems interested.

And when did the Socialist Party get involved in this whole bruhaha? Would it have been, perchance, when charges were introduced into Dublin? Prior to this, were they campaigning for Joe Q Public from BallyGoNowhere who's never had a state-paid rubbish collection in his life ?

Where are the campaigns now for people who have been forced to be put on private water-supply systems because their was no free supply from the local council in their area? Surely they must exist???

Or could it be that once something effects Dublin, and Dubliners have a problem with it, then its worth complaining about as an abrogation of rights. Before that, it doesn't matter because the numbers aren't significant enough?

I do have a problem with 2 Public representatve being sent to jail for opposing the charges.

OK - getting back on topic somewhat....

He wasn't jailed for opposing the charges. He was jailed for breaking the law. Was his sentence a bit harsh - possibly, but I can understand why.

Yes, I know - someone can smash up a jet and not get jailed, and then a politician stands in front of some bin trucks and gets himself landed in jail. Where is the justice?

Well, see, the way I look at it, the law had little choice.

Were it to come down leniently, we would have had yet another deluge of bad press about how it constantly appears to be one law for the politicians, and one law for the rest of us (and one law to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.....oh, no, wait...thats something else).

Unfortunately, in this instance, things seem to have gone the other way, and now we're getting allegations that the law is still subservient to the politicians, but in whatever way they want/need it to be. If they want to ignore something, it gets ignored - if they want someone hit hard, they're hit hard......

But is that the case? Could it not be that the judge was looking at the situation slightly differently? What we have here is a politician encouraging lawlessness. Just protest is all well and good, but encouraging people to break the law in order to protest is not a democratic action. Personally, I think its a case of a severe punishment because someone cared enough to press charges, and ultimately we're dealing with someone who has absolutely no defence. Their entire job is supposed to be about the democratic process, and yet there they were, up on charges, for advocating that the public ignore this process when they disagree with it.

Perhaps the sentence was a bit harsh, but personally I would think not.

jc

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Man, try to see things from the point of view of a peaceful anti-establishment political party - much as this is alien to you, I know.

But what is the "establishment" as you see it, only what a majority of the rest of us want and that includes the rule of law and order.If you are anti that,I don't see you getting a majority behind you.

The High Court is a political weapon in the hands of the government - and in this instance it was used to stifle a popular movement by sending the highest profiled members of the movement to jail.

Thats a convenient view I'm afraid, the high court is the law of the land and is used by everybody.
In this case it has been used by a Dublin Council on behalf of the people it represents in order to prevent the unlawfull disruption of bin collections.
You could change that by getting a majority on that council elected who oppose the poluter pays principal.
Do you think you can do that? or is it the case that you want your way anyway regardless of what the majority think about how society should be run?

The government makes the law and while that government is as corrupt as the one we have, breaking the law, when done for political ends, in a non-violent manner and in an as unobtrusive and inoffensive manner as possible is absolutely viable. If it is in the interest of the people, then so be it.

well I suppose there I have my answer.
Well as along as you are going to continue to take that approach, there won't be a vote passed in the dáil proposing Joe higgins or any of his colleagues as Taoiseach.
And I along with the rest of the not so silent majority won't have any sympathy if law-breakers get jail.
mm

bonkey

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
The government makes the law and while that government is as corrupt as the one we have, breaking the law, when done for political ends, in a non-violent manner and in an as unobtrusive and inoffensive manner as possible is absolutely viable. If it is in the interest of the people, then so be it.

But this isn't this just a polite way of saying "if I disagree with the law, then its acceptable for me to break it, as long as I do so in a manner I consider acceptable".

You are setting the standards that make it ok for you (or those like minded to you) to break the law.

I railed against the earlier comment because it counter-posed at least one absolutely outrageous and blatantly incorrect parallel - ie, racist violence.

Why? Those people are applying the same underlying logic to their actions - that the law is not doing what they want it to do, and that therefore its acceptable for them to break the law in a manner they feel is right/justified/acceptable.

The fact that you disagree with them is no more telling or significant than the fact that I disagree with you. If anything, its less telling, because I'm taking the stance that anyone using this logic as justification for breaking the law is wrong, whereas you're saying that anyone using this logic is wrong only if they use it in a manner you disagree with, or break laws you feel should not be broken.

If you feel justified in condemning them, then surely you must cede the same justification to anyone who condemns the bin-protestors on similar grounds - if you are applying your principles fairly and evenly.

No-one likes being compared to the extremes, and I agree fully that there is a difference of scale or severity here, but the underlying principles are identical - you both feel its ok to break the law in a manner of your choosing for a reason of your choosing. So while your punishments may differ relative to the severity of the law you break, and the manner in which you break it, the underlynig justification for enforcing the law against both groups is identical, as is the underlying reasoning for why both groups are breaking the law in the first place.

It is the responsibility of every citizen in every democracy to be as clued up as possible on the politics that pertains to them - even if to them, that is the local Council and nothing more.

No, it is not. It is the responsibility of every citizen to be as clued up as they so desire about the politics that pertains to them. That's the very essence of freedom.

jc

RainyDay

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
The High Court is a political weapon in the hands of the government - and in this instance it was used to stifle a popular movement by sending the highest profiled members of the movement to jail.

I think you need to up the dosage of the anti-paranoia pills, Éomer. There is no evidence to support this.

Sure, judges were political appointees up to recently, but the Irish judiciary has a superb record as NOT being part of the political process.

bloggs

There is a belief that just because Joe thought his crusade was fully warranted, the ends justified the means. Personally I think this guy was doing it as a political stunt. Remember there is no such thing as bad publicity. The Judge should have given him a fine instead of making a martyr out of him.

Remember Joe/his party supports people breaking into Shannon Airport and smashing up planes.

Sparks

Originally posted by therecklessone
Sparks, a few things spring to mind.
Firstly, the tax relief is for all service charges, including your domestic refuse collection, either by the local authority or by private contractors. What part of that is hard to understand. That means you can claim tax relief on bin charges!!!!

Indeed, except that the devil is in the details. Look at your example from the revenue commisionars again, but this time look at the second one in that leaflet - it points out that Person B is not entitled to tax relief on bin collection if a private company is collecting his bins and he's paying other local authority service charges as well.
Plus, many households will happily eat up that 195 euro in less than a year, so you're back to not having tax relief and that means double taxation.

And bonkey, nowhere have I seen people protesting to have their bins collected for free - everywhere I see them protesting having to pay twice for that service.

Sparks

Originally posted by bloggs
There is a belief that just because Joe thought his crusade was fully warranted, the ends justified the means. Personally I think this guy was doing it as a political stunt. Remember there is no such thing as bad publicity. The Judge should have given him a fine instead of making a martyr out of him.

Congradulations bloggs, you've read the dictionary definition of "politician"...

Remember Joe/his party supports people breaking into Shannon Airport and smashing up planes.

Except that in this case, he's on the right side. Better to smash them up than to logistically support an illegal war by allowing weapons to be effectively smuggled through shannon under misleading manifest list entries, as we've now found the US has been doing. (And is still doing, by the way).

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
And bonkey, nowhere have I seen people protesting to have their bins collected for free - everywhere I see them protesting having to pay twice for that service.

Which is where I come back to asking where someone has shown that people are paying twice.

To show this, there would have to be a direct correlation between the income tax you pay, the monies given to the councils by the national government, and the monies spent by the councils on the bin service.

I'm not saying it's not there....I'm asking for the people who are insisting that this is double-taxation to show me the figures. If they've already been posted, then I apologise, but I haven't seen them. If they haven't been, then wouldn't you agree that its a bit ridiculous that this discussion is on its nth page over who-knows-how-many threads, and no-one has actually proven this case and people are getting so fired up on both sides over what is nothing more than an unsubstantiated allegation?

jc

Sparks

Originally posted by bonkey
Which is where I come back to asking where someone has shown that people are paying twice.

Rather simple, that.
Prior to bin tags, no local bin tax paid, income tax paid, bins hauled away.
With bin tags, income tax level has not decreased, and now a local bin tax is being demanded without tax relief to cover the cost.
Ergo, you're being charged twice.

I'm not saying it's not there....I'm asking for the people who are insisting that this is double-taxation to show me the figures.

Bwa-ha!
Post offical government figures on what really happened with your income tax?
Even if you could find them and McDowell didn't have you arrested for posting them, how do you know they even exist? Didn't you see Brennan's interview explaining how the LUAS tender process was run?

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from Bloggs
There is a belief that just because Joe thought his crusade was fully warranted, the ends justified the means. Personally I think this guy was doing it as a political stunt. Remember there is no such thing as bad publicity. The Judge should have given him a fine instead of making a martyr out of him.

Remember Joe/his party supports people breaking into Shannon Airport and smashing up planes.

I was absolutely livid when I read this but I realise it isn't bloggs fault - it is the fault of the people who really do support such tactics - which in the case of Shannon Airport was the SWP - just as they supported the sit down protests in the North which got a hundred kids in the middle of Belfast arrested - and in both instances, it was the SP who knew what to do to help those arrested.

Joe did not do it as a political stunt. Trust me on that one. The last thing he wanted was to be landed in jail - hell, the man was looking for a holiday just before this broke out. He was standing by his constituents - and people seem to hate that. Clare even less so because this woman is now seperated from her partner and daughter for a month and Mr Murphy now has to tell Clare's daughter that her mummy is in prison. Yeah. A stunt.

Quoted from Rainy Day
but the Irish judiciary has a superb record as NOT being part of the political process

Can I see it?

Quoted from bonkey
You are setting the standards that make it ok for you (or those like minded to you) to break the law.

If people hadn't broken the law, would the Soviets have pulled out of Eastern Europe do you think?

Now, again, that is an extremity but bonkey, the law is a tool of the ruling class and absolute obedience to it is like being sheep to a slaughter. If people find ways to make political points in a non-violent and as inoffensive as possible, then they have that right in my opinion.