editing pak files

earthworm_jim

How do people feel about the editing of .pak files which is the norm in ireland these days?

I'm not too sure that I like the idea.

Already people are ripping apart quake 3 to put in modified trails, fullbrights, etc.

Like that's all very well and it certainly makes it easier to win games but I think you're no longer playing the same game so the win doesn't count. (this only counts if some ppl playing have modified paks and the others dont).

For e.g - Q3 smoke trails are annoying when we're not used to them but they could add a fair bit to the game too - provided both players have em. It gives more scope to divide the good players from everyone else i.e. how well they cope with the smoke.

I read an interview of some top player on a site (I forget where maybe chau) recently and he came up with a good point. Do you know the boring part od dm4 duels where one guy is down in the 100H and the other is whipping rockets at the door (e.g. laker/kane in tgi final). Wouldn't it be cool if all those rockets left tons of smoke that could be used as cover for kane to rocket jump out and surprise lakerman. There's loads of other places where the use of rocket smoke as a screen might become a trademark q3 skill.

Basically I reckon it'd be better if all tourney's insisted on playing the SO original game. That way using the pak files would only make you crap when it counts.

opinions?

AtWorkOnFuccingSaturdayAndBored Jim.

Chaos

haha, thoguht you were in cyber hole, i was gonna tell yah too come down. Call in on your way home if u like

earthworm_jim

Coolio. See ya later so John.

Hecate

its like ppl customising their car/motorbike (if u can use that analogy .

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Cardinal Fang, fetch...the comfy chair!
clans.quake2.co.uk/hiv
www.planet-tribes.com/em

Zero

interesting thought, but you know ppl are gonna do it anyway

Koopa

nope, customising lets you get better after a certain level, because it lets you experiment and see what is possible. you will end up knowing more about the game than the other person who stayed with defaults the whole way through, and will probably beat him at his own game.

look at us at the start of last year, for example. I used to play on _everything_ defaults(I actually used default.cfg for my config, with the brightness turned up and the mouse sensitivity at 4 or 5(cant remember),and i used the mouse, but didnt use mlook at all.. i actually strafed using the mouse(!)), didnt even know how to open a pakfile(and didnt care) or use skins, cos we all used to play on even conditions on the trinity LAN.
We werent getting any better(this is partly the reason some ppl (Dupre?) left q1 i think, they thought there wasnt really any room for improvement, that they had 'seen' the game,etc.

Then we started playing on the net, and finding out about things like fullbrights, and other game settings(v_kicktime, etc.) which meant that the game was more up to aim/overall tactics rather than trying to surprise your enemy by hiding behind a corner or something equally crap (which wont work against good opponents anyway, cos they prolly know where you are even without fullbrights)

This time last year we wouldnt have come close to beating ANYONE near the TOP UK players, in duels for sure, and not in team games either..

Hibs were having a hard time beating FA, who werent even the top clan in the UK (QPD were, and supposedly they pi$$ed on all the other UK clans).
Duels werent even worth talking about, anyone good from uk wouldve raped all of us.

I think we got a lot better in the last year than we did in the 2 years before that, because mainly that everyone was told about these new settings, skins, etc, so most people had a chance to get good, instead of wasting their time running around trying to figure out 'how the **** did he make that jump, all my tactics only work if that jump is impossible', etc.

Slosh

Pak editing is cheating - I dont care if every1 does it - its still cheating!

Slosh.

Koopa

what about things to improve FPS, like replacing flame.mdl with a blank mdl or something.. is that cheating too? (flame.mdl is only found on levels like dm6, its the model for the torch hanging from the wall, and it makes a BIG difference in FPS, but almost no other difference in the game)

or making your own crosshair cos the default one is too big/too small depending on what screen res. you use? thats also pak-editing..

can you honestly say there is another motive(cheating) for someone who replaces the crosshairs, or the flame.mdl, or the gibX.mdl.. the list goes on...

on the other hand, GL quake ppl can see through teleporters.. software ppl cant..
big advantage on certain levels(dm6) i think.
GLquake ppl can see objects out of water sometimes, from inside(happens in lava too).. this is a mistake that happens in many games using 3d rendering, so i think this is a GL problem.. but its a cheat either way.

and as for console commands not being cheats, heres a big one:
r_polymodelstats 1
it tells you how many models are being drawn at a given instant.. you know the enemy is just around the corner when this no. changes, or if the armour behind the wall has respawned, etc.. Stuff that you are not meant to know.
GL quake has loads of things that normal quakers cant do, heres one reason GL quake ppl dont really need to use fullbrights, if they dont want to:
r_lightmap 1
turns on all the light sources on the map, so you can see things like players, etc. more easily..


Basically, i think almost everything should be allowed, except fot obvious cheats like wall hacks, aimbots, proxies, altered eyes.mdl and player.mdl etc.

also having a big pole coming out of your rocket.mdl so you can see where rockets go before they get there isnt exactly very sportsmanlike, so i think that is cheating.. but unless you change the size of the model from the default, its ok.
who cares if they all use red shaft, i dont use it and never had a problem aiming it back at them.

And if you're going for realism, saying "oh in real combat soldiers arent painted white, so lets ban fullbrights", well then you have to ban rocketjumping too, because in a 'real combat scenario', soldiers are not supposed to gain extra height during combat by standing on top of their rockets while they explode...

[This message has been edited by Koopa (edited 16-05-99).]

Koopa

I feel like Devore...
i should get paid to write that much, even if it is junk


[This message has been edited by Koopa (edited 18-05-99).]

Chubby

Yes Koopa but everyone has a different opinion as to what should be legal and illegal. Who are you or any other player for that matter to decide what is acceptable. The only motive behind any kind of pak editing is really to improve your performance and gain an advantage over the other player so it's cheating.

Editing the pak file to improve FPS is understandable but it is cheating. In Quake3Arena for example there are already many settings you can use to improve your FPS. Settings the CREATOR of the game decided to let the players alter. If Brian Hook or John Carmack the size of the smoke trail or other stuff to be up to the individual then they probably would've included an option to change them. (note you can change the size of the railgun trail from the console)

Make the smoke trail from the rockets smaller by editing the pak file so you can see better after firing. Use a wall hack to make the wall disappear so you can see behind the wall. What's the difference? Side step the smoke trail if you want to see or just walk into the room. Point is, the makers of the game will get feedback on all of this and it's up to them to change it not up to the players. It's fine and all for fun but you guys and others are doing it to win competitions which is basically cheating to get ahead.

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*munch*munch*

Hobbes

If your using a modified pak and no one else is, then that's cheating.

Planet-tribes had this exact same argument a few months ago, because someone had written in client side scripts a trajectory planner for the weapons (would work out angle of fire to hit targets). Can't remember her name, but she basically said that being able to program was part of playing the game.

Shiminay

Editing PAK files is cheating - even if it's for FPS reasons. If (like me) you have a crap machine, then tough. If (like my brother) you have a block rockin' machine, then bully for you!

I refuse to use fullbrights and no smoke-trails because that's not the game is meant to be played. Removing the smoke etc. is bad form.

Think about how much work the lads in ID have put into all that coding. Some people have no regard for other people...

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All the best,

Dav
@B^)
homepage.tinet.ie/~davitt

Koopa

rocketjumping is a blatant cheat.. as is pinning someone in the air with shaft, because both of those werent actually meant to be done.. in fact, most of the jumps ppl do today were also never meant to be done by the original level designer (i know cos they use a bug(?) in quake physics, for example did you know its possible to get speeds of 1500 pixels per sec. running+jumping in qw.. thats 1.5 times faster than a rocket! normal speed is meant to be capped at 320 pixels per sec.)

So just because no-one else speed-runs, rocket jumps, or pins pl in the air with shaft, does that mean i shouldnt either?
"i refuse to use the 'bunny-hop' in case my speed might go above 320 pixels per sec!, also i refuse to walk along walls because that gives me a speed boost which is also a cheat!"

as for the game desingners, Zoid was asked about removing fullbrights from QW, and he said

Its all part of the game

and i rememeber reading that iD had never expected ppl to 'rocketjump' by firing rockets straight down, they were as surprised to see ppl use this 'bug' in quake physics as the rest of the quake players were.

Rocketjumping is cheating. Dont care if everyone does it, its still cheating.. and i find rocketjumping unacceptable, and demand that everyone else stops doing it (sound familiar? )



PS: Chris, water hacks are map-hacks.. mdl's with spikes sticking out of them are larger than the original mdl, and glows come into that category too..

[This message has been edited by Koopa (edited 16-05-99).]

OSiriS

You can argue about the ethics of editing paks all you like, but so long as ID leave the game so open to personalisation there is nothing anyone do to stop it. Tribes is the exact same. Any one can open up the vol files and make any changes that they wish, and in just a few minutes they could convert all of the skins in that game to allbrights if they so wanted...although the only thing i have changed in that game is the hud and crosshair.
The whole point to id's vision was to create a simple, yet highly playable game, and one which could be easily expanded by the users. If they dont want ppl to change some features, then they will add code to that area, or make it so that it can not be changed. You can complain all you like about how changing different graphics etc is "cheating", but so long as it is possible myself and ppl like me are going to change anything that will give me a performance increase...and believe me i need it
when i loaded up the game first i was gettin 2fps...now try play off that. Changing the game settings got me up to 7 fps. Removing the smoke and removing detail from the skins got me to 10fps, and now i play at viewsize 70 which gives me about another 2 or 3 fps...meaning that i rarely drop below 10 fps. In q1 ppl who are able to play well with 10 fps such as Bunny,are regarded as great players, which they are,dispite the fact they use details changes like this. but now that q3 come along you are all going to start saying it's cheating. I do it so i can get the game into a playable state, no other reason. Without these changes, it wouldn't even be worth my while loading up the game.

Chubby

Koopa:
Christ, I argued editing stuff in the pak file as cheating because the game designers never meant for you to change that stuff and you come up with doing rocket jumps are cheating??? You on crack? Lamest excuse you could possibly use to condone editing pak files.

Let me put it this way. As you said, rocket jumping was the result of "bugs" in the game's physics engine. They are bugs but it's part of the game the game designer choose not to change in the many released patches. Players did nothing to gain the use of these abilities etc. Everyone's version of Quake is still the same. Pak editing is when you deliberately edit whatever's in there to get ahead which makes your version different to the other players'. There's a big flipping difference you dirty cheating arab.

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*munch*munch*

[This message has been edited by Chubby (edited 16-05-99).]

Dupre

I think the two most important words that I mentioned in my above post were 'common' and 'sense'.

By the argument that you are making Sam about rocket jumping being cheating, theres also nothing wrong with somebody making a client-side rocket and rail projection program, or even using bots for that matter.
If 'everybody' did this, the whole thing would become pointless. So what 'everybody' does is not always the best thing

'PS: Chris, water hacks are map-hacks.. mdl's with spikes sticking out of them are larger than the original mdl, and glows come into that category too..'

Mdl files are also client-side, just like skins and other files. So by what yas are saying, there's no reason not to change them either.
Bot programs are also client-side programs.

The point of my post is that the difference between cheating and playing fair can be very subtle, and its not built into the game code. If people want to use 'hacks' they should be welcome to, but in an ideal world servers would be set up telling players what hacks they shouldn't use on those servers for reasons of simple 'politeness'.

As I have said above, there is NO technical difference between using a bot and just putting a different crosshair into the game by the current arguments. But in terms of actually _playing_ the game, there are very big differences.

Dupre

Not editing the pak file is the other extreme of the argument, and just as bad I think

The new pak files have been made easy to unzip using Winzip by iD _so_ that people could open them, and change things like crosshairs and skins around. I think thats one of the great things about Quake.


Hmm - i just read back over my own posts. Does anyone here apart from myself actually understand what I'm on about at all ?

[This message has been edited by Dupre (edited 16-05-99).]

Shiminay

No

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All the best,

Dav
@B^)
homepage.tinet.ie/~davitt

Koopa

chubby:"I argued editing stuff in the pak file as cheating because the game designers never meant for you to change that stuff"

Yes, you dumb git, read my post.. the game designers never meant for you to manage to get to places using rocket jumps either, does that make it cheating? suppose no-one used rocketjumps... it is perfectly possible to have a good game of quake without rocketjumping.
let me spell it out for you, i am not proposing that we ban rocketjumps, im just against ppl arbitrarily saying "ok this is cheating, that's ok" etc.
I actually agree with Dupre(if i understand what he's saying), basically the wording is different.. i prefer not to call something that we are allowed to do 'cheating'.

why did the designers deliberately make pak files readable in the first place, if they didnt want them opened? in fact, in the newer version of quake (quake3), why the **** did they make this even easier than before by making it openable with winzip, if they didnt want ppl to mess with them?.
and why did zoid reply to a letter sent by someone in clan Z (blitzer?) saying fullbrights were part of the game, when he was asked to remove them? he couldve just hardcoded "noskins 1" into the executable, it is easy to do.

And dont call me a dirty cheating arab, you smelly fat ****.

ps: who the **** are you anyway? do i know you?

Dupre

Full bright skins, water hacks and all that other crap is cheating IMO. The epitome of doing all that is to have levels with no textures {even though the player has a P9000 999 megs RAM and Voodoo 100000 accelerator}, weapons that fire red balls, and models that have very large spikes protruding from them so you can detect other players before they come around corners.

As for console commands etc etc, it all comes down to common sense. Its pretty obvious before you change something whether this going to give you an _unfair_ advantage over somebody else. There's nothing wrong with reduced detail for increased FPS if you are getting 10fps or something, just as there's nothing wrong with running r_polymodelstats 1
if you are doing benchmarking. But to do this when you don't need to and for unfair purposes is, IMO, cheating.

If other people want to use hacks, that is their business, but they shouldn't be fooled into thinking that they are not cheating.

Chubby

Oh oh, that dirty arab called me a dumb git and a fat **** Lets start a flame war heeh. Don't take the personal crap I'm throwing into my messages that seriously ffs. Sorry for calling you a dirty cheating arab, I know that's reserved for ya mates.

That fullbright thing. Am sure it's there for a reason but not to be abused. Have it removed by hard coding "noskin 1" will make more people unhappy than it'll please.

Anyway, my point was rocket jumping and editing pak files are different. Rocket jumping is something you do within the game. Something anyone can do with the same setup etc. Edit pak files to alter all the textures and models and stuff changes your Quake client to something different. Gives you an advantage over someone who doesn't use the same lame tactics. It's like sports, take boxing for example. Anything in the ring is legal provided the opponents follow the rules and use the same setup, ie, padded gloves and boxer shorts . The best fighter wins etc. Editing the pak file is like removing the padding from the gloves so you are thumping the other guy with ya nuckles. You are gaining an advantage you're not suppose to have and your opponent might not even know. It's cheating and you just can't handle the fact that you win so many duels cause you cheat

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You going to finish that?
*munch*munch*


[This message has been edited by Chubby (edited 17-05-99).]

OSiriS

You argue that it's cheating if not everyone has the same setup as you....
Everyone sam has played and beaten (just about everyone he's played then) has the exact same setup as he does, so that kinda makles ure arguement null and void. Standards of acceptability will be developed as the game goes along, and everything that you are calling cheating will be acceptable. It happened in quake 1, the only ppl who complain in that game are the ones using gl quake, but in gl they have no problem seeing...

Chubby

FFS, I'll explain again.

It's cheating when someone edit the pak files to gain an advantage. They are no longer using the standard version of Quake. Of course there'll be differences in the setup from different players. By standard I mean running the game and tweaking it with the standard options anyone has access to in the menus and to some extent the console commands. Stuff you are supposed to use and not changing the rules by editing the flipping pak files.

Editing pak files is about tweaking the setup. Doing stuff to the setup the programmers did not intend for you to do is cheating which is different to doing stuff within the game the programmers did not forsee.

Everyone Koopa has played and beaten had pretty much the same setup is because there is no enforced standards. It'll be fair on Koopa and his opponents yes but they don't make the standards. Going back tot he boxing analogy, it'll be two boxers, both with gloves padding removed. What happens when either of them fights someone who sticks to the standard and uses padding??

It'll be unfair on someone who's equally skilled but playing from a vanilla Quake client. Point is, standards should be up to the programmers. What they think players should be able to change themselves are already in the menus. Edit the pak files all you want but it's cheating.

Oh yeah, that brings me to my next point:
Winners don't take drugs!

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You going to finish that?
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MindPhuck

Jaysus,

One could argue that even a quick bind to shoot a gl and then switch back to the previous weapon would be considered cheating as it varies from the origional settings. Let me ask how common this is ?

Imo, Cheating is stuff like Aimbots, Hacked Maps and Models which do something completely diferent than the origional (not like koopa's wall lights, more like the red shaft)

I would consider proxies as cheating aswell, I think the ONLY reason we should use proxies is for teamplay communication, after that its argueable considering the amount of stuff one can make them do.

Donno, This could be a very long thread.. Nice one EWJ for causing this sh1te

Slosh

Koops: Youre right in a way regarding the fps enhancements, but youre wrong to bring in the likes of rocket jumping into the arguement. RJing, speed jumping etc., is an exploitation of the physics engine that ID didnt forsee, not a hack or a cheat.

Slosh.

Cloud

I think the hacking can be overdone, and it takes away from the enjoyment of the game when the other guy can see you with fullbright skins and you haven't a clue where he is.

In fact, one of the most depressing things about this Q3Test release is how easy it is to hack skins, etc. - it would put you off playing.

J.
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OSiriS

the allbright skins i made are no easier to see than the id skins, what they are is easier to differentiate between the different colours. When i first found the skins in the pak, i straight away changed them to allbright...completely white. After about 3 games, I realised that team skins would be needed, so i dumped the allbrights anyway...i find that anyskin, no matter what color is difficult to spot from a distance, which i what i wanted the allbrights for (my eyesight is kinda ****ed:/) Anyway the whole reason for me making those skins was experimentation...nothing else. I am back on the normal skins now...although i dropped another 2fps because of it which is a ****er. I didnt use those skins to gain any kind of competitive advantage over other ppl, in fact i have given them to a number of ppl and of others want them, they can have them...(lazy ba$tards cant even open up paintshop pro ) the truth is that i have never been able to figure out skin editing and i found q3 skins so easy that i had to experiment.....

[This message has been edited by OSiriS (edited 17-05-99).]

Koopa

chubby: The only thing I actually use on my own computer is fullbrights, which as i said before, Zoid (maker of QW) has said are part of the game.
by the way, he has gone as far as to disable proxies in his test new version of QW, which supposedly pi$$ed off a LOT of people, but he still didnt hardcode noskins 1 into the executable..
also, you dont have to edit/add any pak files to use skins. you just put a skin in the skins folder, and enable them when youre inside quake..

pox

well the best thing that could happen
is that the designers implement a server
command that reports crc differences
like the modern q1 proxies do...you
can play with hacked maps/models...you
just gotta let people know.

and being beaten by somone with hacked
mdls doesnt count

Von

Koopa duels UK players, who amongst other things, use proxy pointing to find opponents and rate 20000 which lags modemers so they can't fire or move. Neither is "cheating" but its total lameness. He still wins against these people but would win by more if you dig.



[This message has been edited by Von (edited 17-05-99).]

Maximilian

Whatever about Q1, Rocket jumping was always intended to be a part of Q2 - ref. 100H on Q2DM1.
With regard to fullbrights, rocket trails etc. I think its a shame that ID went to the trouble of making even prettier pictures and the first thing everyone does is get rid of them. I have lighting switched off (so much brighter, better fps) and fov 120, no rocket trails etc.
I would much rather have them on but I know eveyone else has them off, so why handicap myself. Speaking of handicaps - there's one feature that'll never be used.
ID should allow custimisation, but only to a certain extent. I have no doubt they are hearing this very argument and will make a decision on it accordingly. That's why they released this test in the first place. someone should pack up this thread and send to ID. Its too important to leave in the hands of some random yanks.