editing pak files

OSiriS

er max, you dont need to rj to get that 100h, cmon even a lowly q1 player like me can make it without a rocket launcher

ButcherOfNog

but when it came out first osi, no one realized you could double jump, its a bug. the only way ID expected people to get it was with a rj. ya newbie

OSiriS

I know, i was takin the **** nog, sure u lot wouldn't have even know how to rj to it if it weren't for us q1 lads

Blade

Chubby babbled:

Settings the CREATOR of the game decided to let the players alter. If Brian Hook or John Carmack the size of the smoke trail or other stuff to be up to the individual then they probably would've included an option to change them.

And Max Wrote:

I think its a shame that ID went to the trouble of making even prettier pictures and the first thing everyone does is get rid of them.

"Pretty pictures" are for complete and utter muppets who ID are aiming to please because they make up a much bigger percentage of the game buying population, we've been tru all this cr*p before, hardcore gamers don't want pretty f*cking pictures but ID don't cater for them anymore, why else would they put in such FPS killers as a fog thrower for an RL that takes 2 or 3 hits to kill someone and a rail gun that takes 2 or 3 hits to kill someone... to give the newbies a chance and to make the levels all nice and pretty for them, well if your one of these muppets who likes pretty graphics then you play it your way but the rest of us will play it as hardcore gamers. If ID don't care about what we want then why should we care about what ID intended?

The 2 sides of the argument here are coming from hardcore gamers saying "yes it's ok to modify paks" and non hardcore saying "oh no don't take out the pretty pictures thats cheating" so I say end it here now and decide which of the two categories you fit into and leave the others alone.

Aimbots and see tru walls are blatent lame cheats but modifying your pak to improve visability and FPS is not cheating, can any of you guys actually make out from the original Q3 visor skin if the person infront of you is red or blue? cause I can't.

Are LPB's not cheating too? I don't enjoy getting railed by someone with a 30 ping when I'm running around in slow motion on 200+ on IGN servers but such is life, it's not their fault or problem, learn to live with it and learn to live with ppl editing their paks.

Blade

Chubby

Koopa:
So it's alright to use fullbrights because yourself and all the gamers who consider themselves hardcore uses it? BULL! Noskin 1 cannot be hardcoded simply because there are too many people using skins for clans and stuff. Using skins and customising the look of your model IS part of the game but abusing something like fullbright is cheating.

Blade:
"why else would they put in such FPS killers as a fog thrower for an RL that takes 2 or 3 hits to kill someone and a rail gun that takes 2 or 3 hits to kill someone... to give the newbies a chance and to make the levels all nice and pretty for them, well if your one of these muppets who likes pretty graphics then you play it your way but the rest of us will play it as hardcore gamers. If ID don't care about what we want then why should we care about what ID intended?"

Oh hold on. The RL and RG takes 2 to 3 hits to kill someone so the game is aimed for pretty picture loving muppets? So you'd prefer, let me see, old RL, Quake2 RG maybe, how about the old Quake engine. Go back to QUAKE ya muppet. Just because you can no longer use the same kinda tactics from Quake1 or play like Quake1 then it's automatically no good and aimed for muppets? And you're not a hardcore gamer, you just a hardcore Quake fanatic. I am a hardcore gamer, I competed in competitions in Quake, Quake2, Tribes and not to mention I play lots of other games and yes I don't have a life. I consider myself to be in the hardcore gamers category but hell I don't believe in pak editing.

Don't even try to bring LPB into this argument. This is about the game setup by editing pak files and not the machine or connection setup.

ZERO:
"as far as i can see, there is nothing u can do about fullbrights etc.
its stupid to say its bad doing something like fullbrights that give you an advantage over people, because the fact that it CAN be done means that you will meet ppl on a server who are using it, and if you arent, then URE at a disadvantage."

Yes but the same argument can be used for all the other hacks as well. Assuming my opponent is a cheating bastid. I'll then load up all the hack I can get my hands on right? Why let him have all the advantages... So you're basically arguing for any kind of hacks available because if you don't make use of them you'd be at a disadvantage when the other person uses it. And no, I'm not trying to put words in ya month.

God I can rant forever...

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You going to finish that?
*munch*munch*

[This message has been edited by Chubby (edited 17-05-99).]

Maximilian

Actually, at the start it wasn't possible to get to the 100H on DM1 except by RJ.
I think they introduced new physics in V.3.14 on something, air acceleration and what not.
I'm not that stupid.
Oh and yes, lpb's are cheats
and Blade, I was just making the point that its a shame that all the groovy effects will never be used. When you turn the detail down on Q3, it doesn't look much different from Q2. The effects make the game look and feel more realistic and make for a better experience IMO. Can't see **** though, so if I can, I'll switch it all off. Deep down though, I think I'd prefer if I couldn't. Or do I? What was the point I was trying to make again?

earthworm_jim

Blade wrote:

Aimbots and see tru walls are blatent lame cheats but modifying your pak to improve visability and FPS is not cheating,

Good point. That's the crux of the issue. I agree with slosh, cloud, kharn etc who think modifying pak files is cheating.

I think that when you modify the pak file you are really creating a new mod so that you are playing a completely different game to your opponent.

Smoke trails are physical barriers to vision - the same as walls. They are designed to improve gameplay by obscuring your view of the target and make you rely on superior prediction. I don't think they should be taken out, unless id offer a menu/console command to do so.

If players are hard to see then that is because they are designed that way - quake 3 is a game in which it is hard to see your opponent in shadows - I think it'd be better if ppl played it as such and developed tactics around it. It's not a moral high ground thing - just a fair play thing.

Thing's like fov, kicktime are completely different - they are a preference. Lots of great "hardcore" players don't opt for them - e.g. thresh doesn't use fov and reload doesn't use fov, kicktime, bobup or anything.

Just cos you use the fullbrites and smoke cheats doesn't make you hardcore - it just means you are playing a different game and should only be allowed on servers where other ppl are using the same hacks. No offense btw, but you could use all the "hardcore" cheats you want and never beat a good player (e.g. thresh) who isn't using them.

I think it's cool to use anything you can to improve your fps (I use mipcap and co in quake, and carmack has released console commands for q3) but taking out physical barriers like smoke, shadows (thru fullbrites), walls, etc has got to be cheating. (p.s. sam when zoid said that he was talking about QW not q3 - quote's out of context - there's no allskins console command afaik in q3 so it's not part of the game).

If everyone is using cheats, not only will it scare off newbies instantly, but it'll drive great players like cloud and co. away from the game. Maybe kill off quake in ireland.

Maybe you're right blade and the community should split into two - those who use hacks and those that don't - complete with seperate servers?

NoHacks Jim

p.s. I agree with you about the rocket power - it sucks - I'd love real powerful rockets with low splash range.

I'm pretty sure that the teamplay mods will have a great system for telling your teammates apart clearly - the game is designed for teamplay - it's not something they'll overlook.

[edit]
actually this post is way too long - I don't really feel that strongly about the whole thing. If everyone is using the cheats then that's cool - I will too. Just not against people who don't use them. Like ronin said - it is a test and is designed for messing about with. This stuff isn't an issue until the full version is released.



[This message has been edited by earthworm_jim (edited 17-05-99).]

SeP

"aimed for muppets"

this is a stated fact by ID....

earthworm_jim

Hey Sep - have you tried playing it?

It's pure class imo. Way better than Q1 for ffa's anyway - even at the test version. My only gripes with it are:

* There needs to be something real powerful to give it more focus - I'd say if they don't increase the quad we'll find ourselves bfg running. A real 200 red armour would be nice too.

* maybe make it a little easier to see people - darker shadows/light effects at feet could do it or a tribes - style hud flag (now there's an idea!).

* stronger rockets/rail would be cool.

I hope they put these things in but if they don't I'll live with it and prolly still love the game.

StraightOriginal Jim.

ButcherOfNog

I think ID are creating a game that both muppets & hardcore gamers will like.

how far has anyone tried to modify the pak? can u create see-thru walls? if you can't then whats the problem? replacing models is something anyone can do in q2 but its rarely done as your still working with the same hit-location size, doesn't matter how big the model is.

i think the cheating thing is being blown out of proportion, the tearing of the game apart in the first few days of the test didn't happen before cause we didn't have a clue it was possible when qw was released.

there is no more "cheating" in q3 than there is in qw or q2. so why the big discussion now? cheating is aimbots, see-thru walls, or bypassing server capped rates. ain't seen any of this sort of stuff yet.

Zero

as far as i can see, there is nothing u can do about fullbrights etc.
its stupid to say its bad doing something like fullbrights that give you an advantage over people, because the fact that it CAN be done means that you will meet ppl on a server who are using it, and if you arent, then URE at a disadvantage.
e.g. Osi made fullbrights. he so far has a mental q3 shot wihtout em anyway, but obviously the fullbrights will help it more. | play him on the lan all the time, so im fooked if im playing someone with fullbrights and me not have em. which is of course the reason he uses em in the first place, coz he doesnt want to play some kunt with em and be at a loss.
what i mean is, that the basic hacks like fullbrights, rocket-trails etc are discovered now, so everyone should use em or ure playin at a disadvantage. ure not putting on fullbrights to give u an advantage, ure doing it to even up with anyone else who has em. whether its illegal or not, if everyone else is usin em why not use em ureself? or something

Ze-(running in circles)-ro

SeP

ya jim...ive played it its grand like
will play more when ive the time

anyway that point was in reference to something someone said...think it was chubby saying that because koopa didnt like something it was automatically a game for muppets...i was just pointing out that ID said it wasnt for HC gamers really...

we/youz can change that i suppose

Koopa

chubby: this thread is getting pointless really, but ill say this..
"Noskin 1 cannot be hardcoded simply because there are too many people using skins for clans and stuff" - hahahhah, you just made my point for me. "ppl using skins for clans and stuff" hahahhahaahahahahhaha. modified skins?
the original skin contained 2 fullbright spots at the RL to try to combat ppl camping in dark corners... they obviously couldnt put big white splotches on the player model cos they were trying to sell the game.. but they left in the option, so if someone WANTED to change it, they could.

earthworm_jim: "They (smoke trails) are designed to improve gameplay by obscuring your view of the target and make you rely on superior prediction"
No they arent, they are designed to look good so that newbies will play quake3 instead of some competing game.

SeP

well said koops

ste

Yea, wellll

IMHO if you cheat as much as the next man that is NOT cheating, so therefore allbright skins, hacked mdls (not over the top now) are all yes, yes.

But yas will NEVER find out who does and does not hack paks and so on, so every1 should do it to be on equal terms with all the other fu[king cheaters.

So cheat {!}

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Best regards,
steB.

Warning: Terms and Conditions apply. Actual product may be smaller.

[This message has been edited by ste (edited 18-05-99).]

Koopa

we are talking about which should be allowed on LAN, where it is fairly obvious when someone is doing something theyre not supposed to... so if you use hacked walls/bots/proxies etc, you will be caught

Chubby

Koopa:
I'll say it again. Noskin 1 is part of the game but fullbright is abusing it. It's cheating. You change skins to change the look of the model. To customise it for clans and **** and not just to paint the damn thing white so cheaters like yourself can see better and win more games.

If you want to believe that you are not cheating go ahead. Just don't try to justify it by spilling all that crap about Zoid saying it's part of the game.
(can't believe one of the top quake players is such a cheater and he's lame enough to try to justify it haha )

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You gonna to finish that?
*munch*munch*


[This message has been edited by Chubby (edited 19-05-99).]

Dupre

Its pretty obvious that different people have different standards for what is cheating and what is not, so this whole argument goes nowhere fast.

The simple solution to this is to define cheating with respect to individual servers. Each server set up allows {but can't enforce} different things, so one Quake3 server might allow fullbrights, while their use will be frowned upon on another server. This is done by a simple MOTD message to let players know what is allowed. This cannot be enforced by code, so it would have to be admined. It would be nice if ID put in a one-time CRC check for different client-side files with respect to predefined server settings, but I'm sure they have better things to be doing at the moment. Maybe in later versions if we push them to include it.

This is how the LPB Vs HPB issue has been handled for quite a while now {HPB servers and LPB servers}. It ain't built into the game code {well, early versions weren't}, its enforced in individual servers by players and admins.

This would make everyone happy, but unfortunately servers don't exactly grow on trees

>>"aimed for muppets"

With what I've seen of the game so far, I'd definitely disagree with this, especially with the reduced blast radius of the RL. Of course, there's no telling what ID will change, or do with weapons like the BFG and lightning gun, so this could still happen.

On the subject of smoke trails, and fullbrights, I prefer to leave them in the game, because I think they add to the atmosphere, and make it more 'fun'. If people are just after frags, then I can see a reason why they would turn it off {can't see a bloody thing sometimes}. This reinforces my earlier points about servers - set up 'fun' servers for people who want to play vanilla Quake3 with no fullbrights or mods, and other competition servers for people who are looking for frags. Wouldn't everybody be happy this way ?

Koopa

chubby: maybe you should ask these mysterious people who use skins in team games to show you exactly what skins they use for the enemies..

Chubby

KOOPA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have you not been reading the posts or are you just ignoring what I've been saying? Just because you're not the only one cheating doesn't mean it's not cheating. FFS, you're the type of person who joins an angry mob and participates in riots and gang rape and sh*t just because others are doing it aren't you???

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You gonna to finish that?
*munch*munch*

earthworm_jim

chubby: Sam (koopa)'s dead sound actually and he's got a valid point. When you're used to playing with hacked pak files, it's hard to go back. I'm with ste and dupre - playing hacked versions is only cheating if you're playing people who are playing original (non-hacked) q3.

Different servers seems to be the only way ..

Blade

Oh hold on. The RL and RG takes 2 to 3 hits to kill someone so the game is aimed for pretty picture loving muppets? So you'd prefer, let me see, old RL, Quake2 RG maybe, how about the old Quake engine. Go back to QUAKE ya muppet. Just because you can no longer use the same kinda tactics from Quake1 or play like Quake1 then it's automatically no good and aimed for muppets? And you're not a hardcore gamer, you just a hardcore Quake fanatic. I am a hardcore gamer, I competed in competitions in Quake, Quake2, Tribes and not to mention I play lots of other games and yes I don't have a life. I consider myself to be in the hardcore gamers category but hell I don't believe in pak editing.

Don't even try to bring LPB into this argument. This is about the game setup by editing pak files and not the machine or connection setup.

Chubby your a f*ckin tosser, if you've been around so long that u know it all how come no one knows of you? or it that an alias? what are you hiding from? people only hide when they know their talking sh*te and don't want to dirty their real name, so if you've something to say say it using your real nick otherwise STFU, and if that is your real nick then no ones ever heard of you so go back to playing Tribes and stop talking about something you know nothing about, the tribes board is just next door...

My last words on this to you fatso are:

1) I wasn't the only one who said Q3 was aimed at muppets, ID, Thresh and Sep said it.

2) I'll be editing pak files all I want because everyone else will be doing it anyway.

3) LPB's were brought into this because you were sh*ting about "pak editors" having an advantage over everyone else, so you brought the advantage cr*p into it, lpb's have an advantage too so if you want the games to be played on even terms then you have to find a way to stop everyone from editing their pak files, even out pings on the servers and give everyone the exact same spec machine to play on, and somehow I don't think thats going to happen so basically all this discussion is waste of time.

Blade

koloth

This would be a nice topic of conversation on our next **** up. Any ideas when the next one will be? Saturday week anyone? Blade?

Blade

No, girls would be a nice topic of conversation for the next p*ss up. Anyway it's hard to get one organised cause the only hardcore drinkers are the Q2 lads, them days are gone Koloth, people like Dev started edging away from drink and onto hardcore quake instead, we used to go to pubs then nightclubs, then he started backing out of the nightclubs part and soon after stopped going to the pub too. And Gandalf only goes out with his "real mates" now.

Blade

WhiteWashMan

ahh blade,
you can come drink with us if you want.
just stay quiet in the corner til someone talks to you

Chubby

Earthworm_Jim:
Yeah, sam's okay. I just don't agree with what he's saying that's all. What if no one hacks Quake3Arena? Koopa, Blade or whoever are the first to do it? Their reason for it and their justification for it is bogus. For all we know they are the only cheaters for Quake3 in Ireland and everyone else are just catching up so they won't loose due to the disadvantage it creates.

Blade:
Grow up. My opinions' not worth anything because I'm not known to you? I've played under other names yes, Chubby is what I use for Tribes. Even if I tell you my old nicks you wouldn't know me anyway so my opinions would be just as invalid to you right? And I never said I know it all. I just didn't agree with the fact that you said Quake3Arena are not aimed for hardcore gamers like yourself when all you clearly plays is Quake. Quake is not the only game out there.

I know Thresh is seen as a God to you hardcore Quakers. He's beta testing Quake3 for ID and I'm sure there's a lot in the game are a direct result of his inputs. Thresh seems to enjoy playing the game and had said good things about the game on his website. So i guess Thresh is a pretty graphics loving muppet and far from a hardcore gamer as you've put it.

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You gonna to finish that?
*munch*munch*

Koopa

ID didnt model the game on what thresh says.
thresh in fact wanted as little as possible of the fancy graphics, in q2 and q3.
get your facts right.

koloth

yeah well whatever, to get back to the actual moral arguement of editing pak files
as far as I can see it is ILLEGAL to modify the q3 arena pak file, as per the eula.doc incuded with q3. I quote:

"You, either directly or indirectly, shall not do any of the following acts:
disassemble, reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile, modify or alter the Software;"

hehe they said disassable twice. So there it is in writing.

I've checked the q1 license agreement and it says:

"Additional Prohibited Uses. Neither you nor anyone
at your direction shall take the following action in regard to the
Software, or any portion thereof, such as a screen display or a
screenshot:
Modify, disassemble, reverse engineer or decompile the Software; "

I've never done it, but Koopa says that the to use the fullbrights for q1 you just shove the skin into the skins folder and enable from the console, so I guess that isn't really cheating coz you're not making a modification to the pak. So from this I would deduce that for either q1 or q3 (bah forget q2 it is both morally and legally acceptable to do anythingwhatsoever via the console, but it's not OK no go into the pak file and start adjusting it.


hehe

Koopa

i think 'disassemble' is talking about the .exe file really, as ID specifically wanted people to be able to edit the pak files, and make new mods etc

haha you read the EULA

Chubby

Koopa:
Go read Thresh's reviews and previews again to read how excited he said he was about the technology and len flare and bits.

"thresh in fact wanted as little as possible of the fancy graphics, in q2 and q3.
get your facts right."

I doubt he's as backwards as some of the people here. What's new in Quake3Arena really besides the graphics?? Fancy graphics make games look better with more atmosphere etc. All you people care about is how fast you can run it and how similar it is to the original Quake. There's more to playing games then killing the other guy and winning.

As much as I hate to selectively quote people who doesn't read this board to make a point, here's what Thresh said in his Quake3Test review...

"What caught my eye the most was the light flares. Not just your average flashblend bubble or Unreal lens flare, when enabled these billous sources of light flashed and flickers in the air, like watching tracer fire from a film footage of a war. I imagine most everyone will turn them off one the novelty wears off, but they're certainly a sight to behold! "

Doesn't sound like he doesn't want them to me. He even like the smoke trials from the rocket launcher and raves about them.

Just making a point that not all hardcore gamers dislike the game just because it looks pretty and you can't run it as fast as you'd like.

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You gonna to finish that?
*munch*munch*


[This message has been edited by Chubby (edited 20-05-99).]