i F**king hate that Horseface

p.pete

Originally posted by sykeirl
See my earlier post is ignored.
By your own arguments are you going to condemn Fortune and Neville for their actions on Sunday?
Hello?

True but it's more important what the FA think then manu supporters. Hopefully they will take a balanced view.

The Muppet

By your own arguments are you going to condemn Fortune and Neville for their actions on Sunday?

If thats directed at me I am and I also condem Ruud for his exaggerated actions if your interested. None of it excuses what followed.

GuanYin

Thats good Muppet, nice to see a football supporter showing some clarity regarding his/her team.

I agree, I said at the start, the book should be thrown at Keown, but especially at Ashley Cole.

For the record, Fortunes and Nevilles actions are part of what followed.

yop

but especially at Ashley Cole

I would have seen monkeyboy keown as been more guilty than Cole, why u think Cole is worse?

jesus_thats_gre

Originally posted by yop
I would have seen monkeyboy keown as been more guilty than Cole, why u think Cole is worse?

I personally think Ashley Cole is a little scumbag... Keown is jsut stupid i think..

GuanYin

Originally posted by yop
I would have seen monkeyboy keown as been more guilty than Cole, why u think Cole is worse?

Cole was a good bit away and basically took a swipe at Ronaldo because he got the better of him most of the afternoon. Ronaldo wasn't really involved in the scuffle and Cole just made a bee-line towards him to cause trouble.

yop

Ronaldo wasn't really involved in the scuffle and Cole just made a bee-line towards him to cause trouble

Missed that one.. if they spot it they will not be too impressed with him.

So you now have Lehmann, Viera, Keown, Parlour, Lauren, Cole
then Fortune, 2 * Nevilles.

thought the FA were only looking at 5 arse players, wonder who they are leaving out.

So if you take it going on the pictures..!!

Keown - jumping up and down like a fool. should not be banned.
Cole - intent? - 1 match
Lauren - was it a push or nudge. - should get away with it
Parlour - push, rose his hands so 1 match
Viera - 2 yellows - 3 match?
Lehmann - eating the face of the linesman, common practise, should be ok

Neville * 2 - punching? , pushing - 1 match
Fortune - did not see that.......

GuanYin

Vieras two yellows is wortha one match ban
I'd say seeing as he was out of the equation at the end, he's not counte din the "in-famous 5".

The Muppet

For the record, Fortunes and Nevilles actions are part of what followed.

I honestly have not seen these actions but have seen reports on them . There was so much turmoil on the pitch it was easy to miss things. If The two retaliated they shouldn't have. If G neville punched someone he deserves whatever punishment he gets.

RVN IMO exaggerated his reactions and that was unnecessary.
I dont believe his over reaction had any bearing on the sending off. From the point the ref saw Viera lifted his leg he deserved to walk . This was before ruud jumped out of the way.

Thats good Muppet, nice to see a football supporter showing some clarity regarding his/her team.

Unfortunately as is evident in this thread it is a rare occurance here.

Dustaz

Originally posted by The Muppet
. We all know that RVN was assaulted ,we all know that Arsenal Stepped ove th mark of acceptable Behaviour and we all know The Man U players acted in a veryrestrained and Professional Manner

Calm down there sparky, no-one was 'assualted'. I didnt see you shouting this loudly when Keane admitted to pre-meditated assault on Haaland. That IS indefensible.

I Pretty much agree with Yops assesment of the punishments but actually i think laurens push was worse than he says and probably deserves something. Lehmann did touch the referee and i wouldnt be suprised if he recieved a match or two ban.

The Muppet

Calm down there sparky, no-one was 'assualted'. .

RVN was assaulted byat least two arsenal players , Keown and Parlour.

I didnt see you shouting this loudly when Keane admitted to pre-meditated assault on Haaland. That IS indefensible

Did you not Why was that ?

what relevence has it to last Sunday. Keane helped to defuse the first incident the on Sunday but i dont see you mentioning that.

BTW i,m perfectly calm thank you.

Dr Bolouswki

Man, this is mental...

Does no-one think it was just handbags at dawn?

I mean, remember that famous photo where you have keane and the the Man U possy haraunging the ref? Lots of jostling, same as Sunday but you Man U fans seem to forget that? Or Keanes tackle on Haaland, where he admitted to not going for the ball (in fairness though, didn't he get a ban for that)?

How about the scuffle after the last game at old trafford season just gone? Same thing, pushing and shoving etc etc - points deducted bans at that one? No.

I think its great that these great rivals fire themselves up so much. Its swings and roundabouts. I think the arsenal fans need to admit to their poor disciplinary record - I don't think its a huge cause for concern though. Even if Utd had the same record I'd still just consider it a bit of a laugh and a good reason to poke fun at them and their supporters - but screaming 'assault' and demanding bans, points reduction? C'mon... better than kind of passion than a boring Liverpool 1-0 win or my beloved Man City leaking 5 goals at home to Arsenal...

The incident in question made an otherwise average game exciting - I don't think Ruud is holding any grudges about it and I'd imagine the players (from both teams) couldn't give a fiddlers about all this...

ANd kids - some objectivity please. If it was Leicester v. Bolton you wouldn't give a fruck... I think many of you need to take a step back from who you support and try to view the incident for what it really was - a bit of overblown passion in the heat of the moment...

I'm big enough to recognise that despite Man City's start to the season, that we are ****e defensively and that many times we commit fouls, behave aggressively and can be less (far less) than perfect on the pitch. It's all part of football.

Objectivity. The sooner some of you stop pontificating about who stuck who's finger up who's arse, the better for all of us...

bizmark

RVN did what comes as normal to us all ......He jumped out of the way of a foot to the nuts in all fairness how the hell could you blame him ???

What AFC did was stupid and unsportman like and they should be punished

Dr Bolouswki

What AFC did was stupid and unsportman like and they should be punished

Punished how? Are you fcking high? NOTHING HAPPENEND!! A bit of push and shove... it happens all the time except maybe not in such high profile matches. You all should maybe watch more than a couple of matches a year. Its so totally blown out of proportion. If the crap was on the other foot (and UtD had done the pushing and shoving) I'd say the same things...

Granted Van Nistleroy acted innoucously I thought - a totally natural reaction to someone trying to kick you - and his turning to the ref was something most players would also do - but to suggest arsenal should be 'punished' - how? A possible after-the-fact yellow card maybe for someone possibly, but other than that it's a storm in a teacup...

get some perspective will ye's!

Dustaz

Originally posted by The Muppet
RVN was assaulted byat least two arsenal players , Keown and Parlour.

No he wasnt, He was pushed and shoved a bit. Thats not really assault (Whatever the dictionary definintion might be). If you're too young to remember then look at some football prior to 1993 and you'll see a few things that are closer to assault.

what relevence has it [Keanes challenge on Haaland] to last Sunday. Keane helped to defuse the first incident the on Sunday but i dont see you mentioning that.

The relevance it has is that was a pre-meditated incident and one which keane gloated about. The entire debacle on sunday was fuelled by hot tempers and fairly instant reactions, not 4 years of planning. Theres a difference and i think its ironic that people are using words like "assault" and "indefensible".

The Muppet

No he wasnt, He was pushed and shoved a bit. Thats not really assault (Whatever the dictionary definintion might be). If you're too young to remember then look at some football prior to 1993 and you'll see a few things that are closer to assault.

Definition of assault = attempt to inflict offensive physical contact or bodily harm on a person (as by lifting a fist in a threatening manner) that puts the person in immediate danger of or in apprehension of such harm or contact .

It might suit some to cahge the definition of assault but there it is and it describes perfectly how RVN was assaulted Sunday. I have been watching football since the sixties and I have never seen anything like I saw after the match on sunday. I,m afraid You can not change the meaning of the english language to suit your argument.

The relevance it has is that was a pre-meditated incident and one which keane gloated about.

It has absolutly no relevance to Sunday Events , Its in the past and Keane has served his punishment for it.

Theres a difference and i think its ironic that people are using words like "assault" and "indefensible".

Alanssmith said after the match Sundat it was Indefensible i have also seen kenny sansom say the same. The Arsenal chairman mad similar comments. Where the Irony in that.

GuanYin

I still think the Arsenal players should be punished for disrepute along with Fortune and the Nevilles (how very Wenger-ish that so many Utd fans didn't see it). However, I think individual fines to the players involved is enough.

Reading an article, it appears that Van Nist fell in the box after the penalty miss (as lauren dispossed him and cleared) and that it was this that caused the angry reactions by the Arsenal players. I haven't seen it yet, so I'll look with interest later. Even still it doesn't justify the reaction.

I read an arsenal biased article this morning, didn't quite buy all of it so I checked newspaper reports. When considering the punishment, I'd like people to consider the past meetings between these two teams:

FA2003: Van Nist goes through Viera in the first 3 minutes and invokes clashes with Keown and Lauren (the former was 50:50 imho). Was unpunished.

Old Trafford Feb 2003: Phil Neville commits at least 3 dangerous, bookable tackles (inluding a two footed challenge from behind). Is given man of the match and praised for his commitment.


Old Trafford Dec 2002: Van Nist punched Ljundberg in the stomach, which is caught on camera, referree missed it, no action by the FA.

Old Trafford May 2002: Van Nistelrooy, comes of the bench and immediately starts push-and-shove with Martin Keown.

cournioni

Right, I'm fucking fed up of you ABU's trying to make excuses for Arsenal and trying to shove the blame onto Man Utd. Arsenal were totally at fault for what happened on Sunday. Yes the Neville's did have a go at them but that was only self defence (did you see Lauren holding Phil Neville by the throat?!) no I suppose you didn't. As for Vieira... Studs in the back my arse. He was just pissed off at his first yellow card and failed to calm down. He should have kept his head and he would have finished the game on Sunday.

Keown is a scumbag, plain and simple. He can't handle anyone winding him up like RVN has been doing over the years. And he DID HIT RVN on the back of the head with his forearm intentionally, Cole was shoving him, Lauren was shoving him and Parlour took a swing at him. 4 vs. 1?! Yeah that is the Arsenal way alright. I think Fortune and Lehmann will get away for their incidents on Sunday because unlike the others, it was during play and both the referee and the linesman had seen what happened. They didn't deal with them during the match so I'd doubt if they'll get suspended.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Originally posted by The Muppet
Definition of assault = attempt to inflict offensive physical contact or bodily harm on a person (as by lifting a fist in a threatening manner) that puts the person in immediate danger of or in apprehension of such harm or contact .

It might suit some to cahge the definition of assault but there it is and it describes perfectly how RVN was assaulted Sunday. I have been watching football since the sixties and I have never seen anything like I saw after the match on sunday. I,m afraid You can not change the meaning of the english language to suit your argument.

Unfortunately there Muppet you have just condemned RVN with your own words. There was no effort made to play the ball and as such he assaulted Viera, still nobody, least of all the Man U fans, is harping on about that.

Half an hour after the match in the Tunnel RVN and Viera were squaring up to each other and had to be broken apart, this was mentioned by officials to the FA and this will be investigated too. Where was RVN's legendary compsure then ??

There are no ABU's here trying to defend Arsenal, what people are trying to do is make the argument more balanced and not have the usual Man U fans letting their mouth run away with them while completely disregareding anything perpetrated by members of their chosen team. Something I believe most Man U fans have accused Wenger of here.

GuanYin

I think you need to review the previous posts pornapster. Most people here including myself, feel that arsenal should be punished.

However, the "poor defenseless innocent Man Utd" cries, just don't wash.

For teh record, you seem to havemissed the fact that while Phil Neville had a hand around his throat, it was Gary Neville who threw a punch, and who wasn't being threathened at the time. The ironic thing about it is that Parlour is good mates with alot of the Utd players.

cournioni

Originally posted by sykeirl
For teh record, you seem to havemissed the fact that while Phil Neville had a hand around his throat, it was Gary Neville who threw a punch, and who wasn't being threathened at the time. The ironic thing about it is that Parlour is good mates with alot of the Utd players.

"I didn't see the Gary Neville incident". Honestly, but it wouldn't surprise me if he did throw a punch.

cournioni

Originally posted by Thanx 4 The Fish
Unfortunately there Muppet you have just condemned RVN with your own words. There was no effort made to play the ball and as such he assaulted Viera, still nobody, least of all the Man U fans, is harping on about that.

It was a 50/50 ball up in the air and he was trying to play it. You can see him watching the ball the whole way if you watch the replay of it.

GuanYin

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
"I didn't see the Gary Neville incident". Honestly, but it wouldn't surprise me if he did throw a punch.

Yet you referenced it defending him

Yes the Neville's did have a go at them but that was only self defence

and then claim you didn't see it?


You see, this blind "Utd can do no wrong" attitiude is the problem here. You have just made a rather rash statement defending Utd based on an something you got your facts totally wrong on. How many other times have you done this? Last time I listen to your arguments

p.pete

It's actually becoming quite annoying at this stage. There is a few manu fans thinking rationally and with balance but most have blinkers on.
Almost everyone without exception has admitted that Arsenal are in the wrong, nobody is saying that Keown is free from guilt and yes there was four people ganging up on rvn at the end.

In terms of the Viera incident, definitely a yellow for the lad possibly a straight red. But Viera was reacting to what had been done to him just as rvn was reacting to a foot coming towards him. No there wasn't studs in his back but certainly a knee. I mean what the hell was rvn doing up that far on his back, it was a dangerous tackle and players commonly react agressively when dangerous acts are commited against them.

Somebody pointed out that rvn dived after being dispossessed after the penalty. I want to see this, if true then that would account for a lot of the provocation. Same with the Nevilles, I haven't seen it so I can't defend or criticise.

There is a lot of things that are being defended by blinkered manu fans that they themselves have not actually seen.

As for Lehman and Fortune - that was handbags if nothing else was. Fortune literally crashed into Lehman to get the ball back but as pointed out this happens all the time when people try to get the ball back. As a seperate issue it amounts to very little.

The Muppet

There are no ABU's here trying to defend Arsenal,

Are you serious ?

.

Unfortunately there Muppet you have just condemned RVN with your own words. There was no effort made to play the ball and as such he assaulted Viera, still nobody, least of all the Man U fans, is harping on about that.

Sorry fish i dont agree. RVN and Paddy jumped for the same ball we see incidents like this in every game. If The Fa Considered RVN was out of order in this he too would be facing charges , He is not so that is evidence enought to convince me he did not assault anyone. I would also bear in mind that the jump was during the match. The assaults occured after the match was over. There should have been no reason for any physical contact at that point except for handshakes.

---

Sykeirl:

I have said i do not condone RVN actions becaus i think in the seconds after his inital jump out of the way he over reacted. I disagree with you calling this disgraceful because it had no bearing on the refs decision and was not the reason for the sending off as you have said in previous posts. To say Ruud was disgraceful would catagorise his actions as being as serious as the Arsenal players that ganged up on him in the end and i would not be prepared to do that. Othere that that point i agree fully with your first post yesterday morning.

I have watched a lot of football over the years and have never seen a reaction like i did after the match sunday, Has anyone else?

The Muppet

I want to see this, if true then that would account for a lot of the provocation. Same with the Nevilles, I haven't seen it so I can't defend or criticise.

I have not seen this either but even if he did hit did not effect the outcome of the match as nothing was given I could hark back to pires dive last week and ask why the arsenal players were not just as incensed by this but there s no point. I conside these allegations to be groundless propaganda, I'm begining to wonder if i watched the match at all.:D

sorry for the 2 posts in a row but pete had the cheek to post when i was typing my first one:( (slow typist i know)

cournioni

Originally posted by sykeirl
You see, this blind "Utd can do no wrong" attitiude is the problem here. You have just made a rather rash statement defending Utd based on an something you got your facts totally wrong on. How many other times have you done this? Last time I listen to your arguments

I didn't see the G. Neville incident but I certainly did see the P. Neville incident. I didn't see any of the United players do any wrong on Sunday, you're right. Maybe if I see what happened with G. Neville it might be different. But until then I say that United done no wrong and Arsenal were totally at fault. Simple as that.

Dustaz

Theres none so blind...


this is like banging your head against a brick wall.

thank god for ignore list.

GuanYin

Originally posted by The Muppet
I have watched a lot of football over the years and have never seen a reaction like i did after the match sunday, Has anyone else?

Yep, I saw a player push a ref once,

I saw several players surround a ref screaming at him trying to intimidate him.

I saw a player kick a supporter.

Arsenal were bad but lets keep things in perspective.

=======================
Muppet

I think that any player who deliberately tries to get another player into trouble is disgraceful.

cournioni

Originally posted by Dustaz
Theres none so blind...


this is like banging your head against a brick wall.

thank god for ignore list.

:rolleyes:

GuanYin

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
:rolleyes:

Great reaction from someone preaching about incidents he didn't even see so can have no informed opinion on.

You just lost yourself all credability in your last 3-4 posts.

Sposs

This thread is going round in circles i think it needs to be closed.

The Muppet

Great reaction from someone preaching about incidents he didn't even see so can have no informed opinion on.

Sykeirl .
In fairnness to pornapster he is not the only one who is making statements on incidents they didnt see. I have done so myself in condemning neville and fortune in a previous post, . It appears now that Gary Nevill Is the only United player to face charges so i think it is time to drop the misinformation being perpetrated as i assume if there was evidenc to back it up more United players would be facing charges from the FA. If Any United player is found guilty of an offence then they deserve their Punishment. They faced sever provocation after the final whistle but retaliation is alos punishable.

p.pete

Originally posted by The Muppet
It appears now that Gary Nevill Is the only United player to face charges so i think it is time to drop the misinformation being perpetrated as i assume if there was evidenc to back it up more United players would be facing charges from the FA.

Which misinformation in particular?

I think G Neville being the only one called into question sounds about right. Anything else done by Manchester players on Sunday amounted to no more than either provocation or poor tackles and should not be a part of the inquisition.

The sooner the verdict comes out the better. I see bad things in Arsenals future...

cournioni

Originally posted by sykeirl
Great reaction from someone preaching about incidents he didn't even see so can have no informed opinion on.

You just lost yourself all credability in your last 3-4 posts.

Read my third last post again smartass.

jesus_thats_gre

This is becoming complete bollox....

ARSENAL DESERVED TO BE PUNISHED IN SOMEWAY. NO ONE IS DISPUTING THIS.... RUUD IS A WIND UP MERCHANT AND WHAT HAPPENED ON SUNDAY IS THE PRODUCT OF 2 OR 3 SEASONS OF THIS.....

PORNAPSTER.. YOU ARE MAKING SOMR PRETTY VALID POINTS BUT YOU LOOSE ANY CRED WHEN YOU BLINDINGLY SUPPORT UNITED... TRY TO REMAIN IMPARTIAL A BIT MORE OFTEN AND YOU WONT BE INVOLVED IN ANY FLAME WARS.... AS FOR THEMUPPET, SOME GOOD POSTS AS EVER.. SKYEIRL HAS MADE SOME EXCELLENT POINTS BUT HAS BEEN DRAGGED INTO A SLAGGING MATCH WITH PORNAPSTER BECAUSE OF STUPID COMMENTS...

P.PETE IS SOMEHOW MANAGING TO REMAIN IMPARTIAL EVEN THOUGH HE IS A POOL SUPPORTER (PLEASE LET THAT BE RIGHT)... KILLAH_B HAS BEEN SCARED OF BY STUPID POSTS FROM PORNAPSTER AND THE FISH DUDE IS CORRECT....


NOW CAN WE JUST CLOSE BOTH UNITED/ARSENAL THREADS CAUSE ITS GETTING OLD.

cournioni

Originally posted by jesus_thats_gre
PORNAPSTER.. YOU ARE MAKING SOMR PRETTY VALID POINTS BUT YOU LOOSE ANY CRED WHEN YOU BLINDINGLY SUPPORT UNITED... TRY TO REMAIN IMPARTIAL A BIT MORE OFTEN AND YOU WONT BE INVOLVED IN ANY FLAME WARS....

That is the thing, I don't see myself being non impartial. I just say it the way I see and remember it. And I'll stick to that until I think otherwise.

jesus_thats_gre

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
That is the thing, I don't see myself being non impartial. I just say it the way I see and remember it. And I'll stick to that until I think otherwise.

I respect that... But ya have to see that your opinion is being dramatically swayed by the fact you are a devoted United fan. Alot of your posts on any topic are very very very biased towards Utd and some of what you say is to put it mildly, comedic.

The Muppet

I think G Neville being the only one called into question sounds about right. Anything else done by Manchester players on Sunday amounted to no more than either provocation or poor tackles and should not be a part of the inquisition.

well pet even he allegations about g neville appears to be mis information. No Charge for neville at all, none for fortune, Giggys and Ronaldo the only utd players charged with confronting players. Arsenal Players charge mostly with Violent conduct.

p.pete

Originally posted by The Muppet
well pet even he allegations about g neville appears to be mis information. No Charge for neville at all, none for fortune, Giggys and Ronaldo the only utd players charged with confronting players. Arsenal Players charge mostly with Violent conduct.

Your getting very uppity Muppet. I never offered anything as information, only opinion. Neville got a warning and I would imagine Ronaldo and Giggs will not get penalised to severely. Don't take that as (mis)information however. It's just what I have in my mind as what might happen.

yop

letting their mouth run away with them while completely disregareding anything perpetrated by members of their chosen team

Well if they are, then they are not doing it any more so than the ABU's or arse fans here and spelling it better I am sure as well :rolleyes:

Benbaz

Originally posted by yop
Well if they are, then they are not doing it any more so than the ABU's are arse fans here and spelling it better I am sure as well :rolleyes:

??????????????????

Am I going mad or does that make absolutely no sense what so ever!!

The Muppet

make sense to me.

Your getting very uppity Muppet. I never offered anything as information, only opinion.

My inital comments about misinformation were not directed at you pete, you replied asking which misinformation i replied in turn to you. I wasn,t taking a pop at you just making the point that some here have made acusations about the 2 nevilles and fortune yet when the fa announce their charges none of these are charged. therefor it is logical that baseless mis informed allegations have been made.

Posted by jesus thats great
AS FOR THEMUPPET, SOME GOOD POSTS AS EVERP.
PETE IS SOMEHOW MANAGING TO REMAIN IMPARTIAL

Could this be the real eason for your annoyance pete.;)

btw Thanks jesus

jesus_thats_gre

Originally posted by The Muppet
make sense to me.




Could this be the real eason for your annoyance pete.;)

btw Thanks jesus

Not meant as a dig to pete, was simply pointing out that considering he is a pool supporter, he has remained mostly impartial and has made some good points.. Same about you theMuppet.

But can we end this one?

The Muppet

Just friendly banter Jesus no harm intended and i'm sure pete will take it in the same way.

(provided livepool get a good result tonight):D

ZENER

Is this the self appreciation society or something ????

p.pete

Originally posted by tinky
Is this the self appreciation society or something ????

Jesus your great tinky, you too Jesus thats great