[Article] Lord Mayor claims he has God on his side in half-day row

Victor

What a gobsh!te, on the day Microsoft closes it's chatrooms to put a check on paedophilia, the Lord Mayors want kids wandering the streets unsupervised. :rolleyes: I'm not saying these days are more dangerous for kids that the 1970s or 1980s, however, far too many of those kids now go home to an house that is empty during the day.

Yes, I loved it when I was 9 and got a half day any time the Lord Mayor visited or Cork won and All Ireland, but I think there are far more parents at work these days that can't cope with children taking random half-days off.

/me goes off to find my AK-47

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/1556695?view=Eircomnet

Lord Mayor claims he has God on his side in half-day row
From:The Irish Independent
Thursday, 25th September, 2003
Ralph Riegel

EDUCATION Minister Noel Dempsey yesterday defied 80 years of school history and warned that half-days can no longer be granted to school children to mark the visit of the Lord Mayor.

Mr Dempsey and the Department of Education shocked Cork's new Lord Mayor, Cllr Colm Burke (FG), by indicating that such half-days are in breach of the social partnership agreement.

As such, special half-days to celebrate a classroom visit by Cork's Lord Mayor cannot be officially sanctioned.

However, the embattled Education Minister now faces his most bitter battle yet - as Cork's First Citizen refused to accept the ruling and stressed that he now has the power of the Catholic Church on his side.

"I've spoken to the Bishop of Cork and Ross, Dr John Buckley, and he has agreed to raise the matter with Minister Dempsey when he meets him later this week," Cllr Burke said.

Cork's Lord Mayor argued that he sees absolutely no sense in the Department enforcing such rigid and draconian regulations.

"For almost 80 years, these half-days have been a fixture of the Cork education calendar," he said.

"Every child in a school visited by the Lord Mayor gets a half-day. And I, for one, don't see what the problem is in keeping this tradition going," Cllr Burke added.

gollem_1975

I agree with you victor. however , i would also say that I don't think that the teachers should get a half day just because the LM turns up either

the lord mayor was on the finucane show this morning going on about how young people would become disillusioned with politics as a result of this . stating that the kids looked forward to the visit each year and that central government was taking power away from local government.

I think its obvious that there is nothing to stop him from still visiting the school to deliver his message.

Victor

Originally posted by gollem_1975
I think its obvious that there is nothing to stop him from still visiting the school to deliver his message.

... but he won't be able to bribe them while passing on his message .....

star gazer

... but he won't be able to bribe them while passing on his message .....
Victor

well we, the electorate were influenced by government last election with a lot of extra benefits etc. and it worked, you can't blame the guy for trying the same. Besides bribing the kids is better than brow beating them into liking politics. Unfortunately not many kids these days have much enthusiasm for politics anymore (granted that's an assumption).

bonkey

What a load of toss.

The education system is apparently trying to bring all its schools onto the same schedules. This will mean that schools will all start back from holidays on the same day, and all classes will start on the same day as well.

This will also mean that ultimately schools no longer will have the freedom to arbitrarily grant half-days when they so wish in order to celebrate some local event (such as the one being mentioned here).

The Lord Mayor can have whoever he wants on his side. He's just kicking up a fuss over what he perceives as an abrogation of his importance.....which he clearly feels is more important than implementing a more balanced education policy across the nation.

jc

TomF

We have a society today where both parents have to work to pay for the big mortgage, and need two cars to each get to the jobs, and then have to pay a creche to take care of the two children until they can be stuck in school. The whole house of cards collapses when, for some reason, the school is not in session (short holidays, or the Lord Mayor declaring a half-day). With Charlie McGreevy wanting every woman out as a wage-slave and old Dempsey wanting every school marching in lock-step, it's enough to make you sick. Up the Rebels, up Cork, and thank God the Lord Mayor of the Real Capital has some sense about what's important in life.

Victor

Originally posted by TomF
and thank God the Lord Mayor of the Real Capital has some sense about what's important in life.

Getting done for shoplifting on Pana? :rolleyes:

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

bonkey

Originally posted by daveirl
It's a Cork tradition

Ah, well. That makes all the difference

jc

dahamsta

Originally posted by Victor
... but he won't be able to bribe them while passing on his message .....

You mean like the bishop coming round and handing out lollies and sweeties? That was the coolest thing about catholicism. Probably the only cool thing. I remember the year a bishop came round and handed out some kind of vicious-looking rosary ring thing, there was war. I'll bet there's still a few scars around Cork caused by those bloody things.

Go Lord Mayor. The Lord Mayor's half-day was the berries, it would be terrible to take it away from this generation.

Bonkey, don't make light of Cork traditions or we'll start waxing lyrical about some other ones...

adam

bonkey

Originally posted by dahamsta
Bonkey, don't make light of Cork traditions or we'll start waxing lyrical about some other ones...

Has it occurred to you that it's not a Cork tradition - which was the point I was (obliquely) driving at?


<offtopic>
Well, that and my dislike of "the real capital" mentality. Why is it that so many Cork people move to Dublin to tell the Dubs that Cork is the real capital and a far better place. If it was so good, WTF did they all come to Dublin for???
</offtopic>


Pretty much every school area in the nation has their chosen "important people" who come to visit, resulting in a half-day from school. I've gone to school in Ennis, Cork and Dublin, and it was the exact same in all three. It may not have been the Lord Mayor in every case, but it was still the same basic affair :

Important person shows up, makes trip of the classes, says nice words, we all get let home at lunchtime.

Still, I guess Dublin has "their" bin collection to rail against, so Cork needs "its" half-days to level things out.

sceptre

We got a half day every time anyone turned up with the McCarthy cup. Being in school in county Cork in the 80s it was a reasonably regular occurrence. Oddly enough the Kerry team used to show up with the Sam Maguire a few times as well. Self promoting whores.

After leaving national school we were limited to times when Mallow won the county championship. As they were mostly crap it only happened once (and at intermediate at that). I lost interest in gaa after that.

Keeps the kids interested in gaa, politics and the Catholic church. Dump the half days and they may well get interested in other things, like why Daddy beats seven skins off Mammy every night. Is that what you want? Cos that's what'll 'appen.

Limerick doesn't have a "Lord Mayor" (Jan O'Sullivan took some misery in correcting me when she was mayor). The Mayor's office does contain the ball Munster beat the All-blacks with though (which I intend to rob, even if I have to be elected mayor through bribery and hired goons to do it). I'm two steps away from an off-topic rant about Oompa Loompas so I'll just stop there.

solice

well i didnt go to a city school in cork. i went to a wee little one right outside the city. the mayor never knocked on our door but i dont see the big deal about getting the half day.

first off its one half day in the year, and as it has become such a regular occurence in cork the schools here probably work that half day into there schedeul for the year

bonkey

Originally posted by solice
first off its one half day in the year, and as it has become such a regular occurence in cork the schools here probably work that half day into there schedeul for the year

No, its one of several half-days that are given for equally spurious reasons. Also, they are not worked into the schedule, as half-days are currently counted as "school days".

According to the aunt who was telling me about this stuff (she's a teacher), there is up to 10 days of difference between schols when you take things like holiday start/end dates, the number of arbitrary half-days given etc. etc. etc. It might seem like nothing to you, but in terms of trying to apply a standard curriculum and/or a standard of education, as well as treating students equally regardless of location, it cannot be maintained.

There is an argument that says the new system could give schools a fixed number of "floating half days" which they could use when they want. The opposition to this comes from the ridiculously high degree of absenteeism in schools on these "half-days". I know in my kid sister's class in secondary school at the moment, attendance is approximately 10% on a half-day.

Basically, its a typical Irish "arrah shur tis grand, layve it alone" attitude which is being considered as a significant problem in enough areas of the nation that a new hardline attitude was required, and to implement it on anything less than a national scale would never be accepted by the unions - not to mention being discriminatory in the first place.

jc

Victor

Originally posted by sceptre
Keeps the kids interested in gaa, politics and the Catholic church. Dump the half days and they may well get interested in other things, like

... education? Honestly, whats the world coming to? :rolleyes:

OK, how about this. One of the guys in my class (inner suburb) lived something like 14 miles from the school (no idea why). Whats he going to do between lunchtime and bustime?

sceptre

Originally posted by bonkey
Also, they are not worked into the schedule, as half-days are currently counted as "school days".

Indeed. If I recall correctly as long as one class is in attendance until 11am it's counted as a full day for the entire school.

qwertyphobia

"I've spoken to the Bishop of Cork and Ross, Dr John Buckley, and he has agreed to raise the matter with Minister Dempsey when he meets him later this week," Cllr Burke said.

What the **** is the ministry for education meeting the bishop of Cork for? Has he nothing better to do with his time

What are they going to talk about apart from how they scuppered the lefroy comision

star gazer

What the **** is the ministry for education meeting the bishop of Cork for? Has he nothing better to do with his time
qwertyphobia

The religious orders are still heavily involved in the education system of this state. Although their contribution is reduced i guess they still get an audience with ministers every once in a while.

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by Victor
Whats he going to do between lunchtime and bustime?

What does he do between school ending time and bustime, is there only one bus a day or was it one of them "special" buses. Was it a "special" school ?

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by Victor
What a gobsh!te, on the day Microsoft closes it's chatrooms[/url] to put a check on paedophilia, the Lord Mayors want kids wandering the streets unsupervised.

Equating the Cork Lord Mayor with Paedophile activity is such a great way to start a discussion. This seems to be the new Godwins law isn't it ? Replace "Nazi" with "Child Molester" and we have a winner.

I'm with Liam Burke on this. The Lord Mayors visit is always at the start of the school term anyway so the disruption is minor. In my school we had quite a lot of half days or left out an hour early. Did none of us any harm really. Very high scoring school in Academia and it produced some fine sports stars too.

bonkey

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
This seems to be the new Godwins law isn't it ?

Well no, because if ti was then the thread would have ended on the first post, which doesn't appear to be the case.

The Lord Mayors visit is always at the start of the school term anyway so the disruption is minor.

Funnily, most teachers would disagree. Getting "settled in" at the start of each term takes far too long, and is exacerbated by the attitude of "sure, we can have a half-day then, no-one has really started doing anything".

In my school we had quite a lot of half days or left out an hour early. Did none of us any harm really. Very high scoring school in Academia and it produced some fine sports stars too.

Delighted for you. You do, of course, have something more than anecdotal evidence to suggest that this is a good thing???

I've outlined the primary reasons above as to why this move is being taken, from what I've been told by a relation who's a teacher who was filling me in on the background to this. Saying "but it did me no harm" doesn't adress a single one of those concerns, so its hardly a good reason to consider as a counter-argument.

jc

simu

I'm also against giving random half-days like this. It must be a pain for prents who have to arrange for someone to pick the kids up and to do babysitting. Maybe they could do more fun activities like art or sports the afternoon after the lord mayor's visit? (I'm not sure this would work either though as teachers are supposed to devote a certain number of hours a week to each subject AFAIK).

Stark

It's a ****ing half day. Primary education is so crap anyway that in the grand scheme of things the half-day itself has no effect whatsoever on the child's education. And don't you remember how when you were young how such a small thing could make your day? Do you really want to take that away from the kids of today for such stupid reasons?

Try reforming the primary school curriculum (so that you don't learn the same material in 4th class as you do in 1st class for example) and then you can worry about half days affecting it.

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by bonkey

You do, of course, have something more than anecdotal evidence to suggest that this is a good thing???

Where did I say it was a "good" thing ? I said it did no harm, I didn't say it was the solution to all education problems. My school was one of if not the top scoring schools in the LC in the City. International Sport stars a-plenty coming from the place. Points way above the national average.

Saying "but it did me no harm" doesn't adress a single one of those concerns, so its hardly a good reason to consider as a counter-argument.

My mistake, I thought when you said

It might seem like nothing to you, but in terms of trying to apply a standard curriculum and/or a standard of education

that you meant more half days was a cause of lowering the standard. Didn't read it right (its due to being busy not the crap edumacation I gots from my school ) . I was saying that my school was very generous with half days and it wasn't a factor in our education.

Funnily, most teachers would disagree. Getting "settled in" at the start of each term takes far too long

You do, of course, have something more than anecdotal evidence to back this up ?

Victor

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
What does he do between school ending time and bustime, is there only one bus a day or was it one of them "special" buses. Was it a "special" school ?

It was an after school bus as opposed to a school special. Looking at the current timetable the bus left 45 minutes after school (bus station 20 minutes away from school). If he finished school at 12:30 / 13:00 he would be waiting until 15:35 to get a bus.

bonkey

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
You do, of course, have something more than anecdotal evidence to back this up ?

Touché

I would point out that the teachers broadly support this action. One interpretation of that is that it is because it will make their lives easier for such reasons as lessening the disruption that these days cause.

Other than that...no...nothing but anecdotal evidence

Originally posted by k.oriordan
It's a ****ing half day

No, its not.

Its an entire series of half-days, all given for equally arbitrary reasons, in differing quantities, and with differing effects on schools.

Its combined with the relative arbitrariness of when schools start back, when classes within schools start back, etc. etc. etc.

It is an initiative to tackle a whole range of issues. The esteemed Bishop is complainnig about his half-day, but unless you can show that an exception should be made in his particular case, then it most most definitely not just a "****ing half day".

jc

MarcusGarvey

Touché

Couldn't resist Bonkey, sorry heh.

Its fair enough if they want to standarise half days and such but there should always be some discretionary half days. Rules need to be slightly flexible.

If this standardisation is the start of further standardisation in Education then fair enough, once they start concentrating on having the kids educated properly besides just concentrating on the things on the periphery.

bonkey

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
but there should always be some discretionary half days. Rules need to be slightly flexible.

I would agree, but I believe that the counter-argument was (as I mentioned above) the ridiculously high (and growing) amount of absenteeism in schools on those days.

(I don't believe there are publically available figures on that, so it is only anecdotal. It may not be endemic, but it is definitely an issue in many schools)

The basic argument was that it would be more realistic for a school to simply count the entire thing as a day off, and use it as part of their holiday allotment (of which I believe there is still some discretionary use to be left available), rather than claiming it as a "half-day", based on the amount of absenteeism, because thats what the realistic impact on the teaching schedule is for many classes/schools.

Funnily, that would still mean that the Cork kids could be "rewarded" for the Bishop showing his face, but it would cost a full day out of a fixed allotment of holidays, rather than a half-day which (as pointed out earlier by someone else) counts as a full day in terms of meeting your annual schooling requirements.

So no-one is saying that the Cork schools can't reward the kids...just that there is now a cost associated with it - that they must be answerable for the time they are giving away....as must all schools for all such practices.

To me, it seems that the Bishop is complaining either that he can no longer "gift" his schools with free time off, or he's complaining because the schools have made it clear that "his" half-day will be one of the ones they choose to sacrifice instead of turning into a full day.

In either case, I see no reason why he is important enough to be treated as an exception, so his complaints just strike me as power-tripping.

jc

jc

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
The basic argument was that it would be more realistic for a school to simply count the entire thing as a day off, and use it as part of their holiday allotment (of which I believe there is still some discretionary use to be left available)

That’s what they want to crack down on, the whole randomness of it means not only do teachers and students take time off, parents also have to take time off to care for them, especially (but not only) the younger ones. It knocks a few percent off GNP, due to staggered holidays (kid #1 has his mid break one week, kid #2) meaning a parent has to take a full week off instead of 2-3 days - several times a year.

Originally posted by bonkey
Funnily, that would still mean that the Cork kids could be "rewarded" for the Bishop showing his face, but it would cost a full day out of a fixed allotment of holidays, rather than a half-day which (as pointed out earlier by someone else) counts as a full day in terms of meeting your annual schooling requirements.

Bishops only give out sweets, Lord Mayors and GAA teams give half days.

Stark

Ah sweets, for the discerning paedophile, there's nothing like the classics.

star gazer

That’s what they want to crack down on, the whole randomness of it means not only do teachers and students take time off, parents also have to take time off to care for them, especially (but not only) the younger ones. It knocks a few percent off GNP, due to staggered holidays (kid #1 has his mid break one week, kid #2) meaning a parent has to take a full week off instead of 2-3 days - several times a year.
Victor

If children were banned altogether, think of the extra GNP we could produce!

I think there needs to be some balance between complete dictation from a central department and rigidly regimented schooling and a localised system where traditions or necessity (like impending snow) are catered for.
Having kids is going to place disruptions on us but that's a responsibility we all must accept. If there were difficulties schools should be asked to supervise kids on the aforementioned half days until the the normal school finishing time is reached, It wouldn't take more than one or two teachers at a guess to supervise them.