Smoke screen

star gazer

The smoking ban is undoubtably a very important issue for the social entertainment industry and the health of workers. It will make for a societal shift in the way we socialise and seems to be a continuation of the gradual policy to stub out the use of cigs (high taxes, banned in cinemas, other workplaces, airplanes and buses). it is causing a lot of friction between the government and the publicans and has seen one councillor resign from Fianna Fáil and one Fianna Fáil councillor resign as chaiperson of the Western Healthboard. Frank Fahey(minister with responsibility for implementing the ban) has gone to ground to avoid being asked his opinion on the issue. Three junior ministers were quoted in the sunday papers as being in favour of a compromise even after both the Taoiseach and the Minister for health have said there will be no compromise.
However there appears to be an almost total lack of publicity surrounding the long promised reform of the health services. Not many are now saying that we are getting value for the €9billion from the services, It appears to have been lost somewhere in the administration of the frontline workers rather than being put into the hospitals and community services themselves. There has been so much emphasis on the smoking ban that no one seems to be calling for health reform anymore. It is interesting to watch Niamh Brennan (wife of Michael McDowell) who was chair of one committe that produced the Brennan report. She has been trying to get her report implemented, but she seems to be having as much success as someone trying to urinate against the wind.
However many of lives the smoking ban will save, a proper reform of the health services will save a lot more in preventing illness and earlier intervention in illnesses. It is time to grasp the nettle and realise if you grasp it hard enough it doesn't hurt much.

star gazer

I wonder will Micheáil martin be signing the smoking ban regulations for january 6th (ish) next week, on the same day the Hanly report is published...

Hobbes

Smoking won't turn people away from pubs.

The insanely high price for a pint that flucuates wildly during the night will.

It is a p!ss poor excuse by the publicans.

Victor

Originally posted by Hobbes
The insanely high price for a pint that flucuates wildly during the night will.

A bunch of them got fined for this today. Haha!

ronano

I'm burn't out,i stopped caring years ago,you can only watch ppl stumble into hole after hole even tho they should of learned from other countries pitfalls.That was random sorry but i was referring to this idea of putting a bandage on a problem rather than curing it in relation to the health services

star gazer

A bunch of them got fined for this today. Haha!
Victor

Do i detect an element of delight in that statement, surely the poor publicans who only get such a small fraction of the price of the pint shouldn't be victimised. (joking)
The publicans have had a very powerful lobby for a long time and it's about time they realised that they aren't the only ones to be considered in such matters.

I'm burn't out,i stopped caring years ago,you can only watch ppl stumble into hole after hole even tho they should of learned from other countries pitfalls.That was random sorry but i was referring to this idea of putting a bandage on a problem rather than curing it in relation to the health services
ronano

Alass we don't even get to see the bandage anymore. The window dressing and distractions are obscuring the view.

mike65

I look forward to the sight of publicans shuffling in and out of the district court early next year as they are fined or have thier licences revoked/not renewed. Okay, I wont hold my breath....:)

Mike.

MrPudding

Originally posted by Victor
A bunch of them got fined for this today. Haha!

Yeah,

I'm just waiting for them to go belly up. One got fine €200 and the other....wait for it......€300. Well I guess they will think twice about overcharging people again.

Just to put it in perspective, the owner of the Goat who got was whilst carrying the WEEKENDS takings was carrying €50 000.

Cop on, those fines mean nothing.

MrP

Cork

Originally posted by MrPudding

Cop on, those fines mean nothing.

MrP

If publicans don't enforce the law - fines will indeed follow.

The smoking ban is a health issue. I would not like if my brother, sister or friends had to work in places filled with fag smoke.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
If publicans don't enforce the law - fines will indeed follow.
The smoking ban is a health issue. I would not like if my brother, sister or friends had to work in places filled with fag smoke.

Then you ought to understand why a fine that amounts to less than the price paid for dishwasher detergent to wash the glasses with isn't going to do any good, and you ought to be calling for a more realistic punitive measure.

Cork

Point of information : Have fines been set?

They were rumoured to be €1600?

star gazer

See what i mean, the smoking ban is a far more emotive issue for the majority because the majority go to a pub every week. When it comes to the irish, don't get between us and our pub. My problem is taht the smoking issue has deflected from the fact that none of the big health reform reports have begun to be implemented in any meaningful way. Micheál Martin hasn't even published the Hanly report which was to be the great way forward. It smacks of media management and short-sighted leadership in the overall health sense.

Cork

Originally posted by star gazer
Micheál Martin hasn't even published the Hanly report which was to be the great way forward. It smacks of media management and short-sighted leadership in the overall health sense.

Reform of the health system is long over due. Hospitals will be closed or downgraded. I think, he will implement change - despite all those who want to keep their local hospitals.

Centres of Excellence is the way to go.

gandalf

Blah Blah Blah Cork. Same old soundbites.

Heres another one from my families catalogue of "Health Excellence".

My Aunt at the moment needs a angiogram and maybe a pacemaker fitted, but her local hospital Tralee doesn't have the facilities to do so. The nearest hospital that has is Cork and guess what they don't have the beds available at the moment.

This crowd have had 6 years most of them with the best financial facilities any government have had in this states history and they let the health service slide further into decay eventhough it already was a highlighted problem.

I have no confidence in them getting the job done when we are in a financially difficult time and this no smoking ban is a smoke screen to get peoples attentions away from the real issue which is the health service (divide and conquer).

My idea of a proper and adequate health service is one where people have to travel at most around an hour to get treatments that they need. This government will not deliver this.

Gandalf.

Cork

Originally posted by gandalf


My idea of a proper and adequate health service is one where people have to travel at most around an hour to get treatments that they need. This government will not deliver this.

Gandalf.

I think this government will seriously tackle health reform. It will not be possible fpr treatments to be available in every hospital. Certain hospitals will probably be down graded or closed.


When this occurs - the government will get much criticism. But I hope they will have the courage to bite the bullet & reform the system.

I know where people had to travel outside the country for treatment.

This crowd have had 6 years most of them with the best financial facilities any government have had in this states history and they let the health service slide further into decay eventhough it already was a highlighted problem.

They massively increased the health spend. But what was needed was form.

The health system needs to provide excellant service while at the same time giving value for money.

The system needs reform. All past governments over the last 30 years should have done it but hopefully Michael Martin will reform it.

The abolishment of Health Boards is a very small first step.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
I think this government will seriously tackle health reform.

Based on what? Total inaction when they had more power, money and time than any other govenment in the history of the state?
That's a funny basis for believeing that they'll do the right thing...

It will not be possible fpr treatments to be available in every hospital. Certain hospitals will probably be down graded or closed.

Well, that will take pressure off of the pension fund - kill the pensioners and the fund goes further.

When this occurs - the government will get much criticism.

Really? You think? It sees soooo unlikely that closing hospitals in the middle of the worst healthcare crisis in the state;s modern history would provoke criticism...

But I hope they will have the courage to bite the bullet & reform
the system.

Well, of course they will - aren't politicians famous for selfless behaviour and sacrificing their careers on moral and ideological points, for taking the long-term view and making judicious short-term sacrifices for the sake of that view, even when it means they risk not being reelected?
:rolleyes:

I know where people had to travel outside the country for treatment.

To be blunt Cork, everyone in this country knows of cases like that.

They massively increased the health spend. But what was needed was form.

Oddly enough Cork, quite a few FF TDs have form and it hasn't helped any.

The health system needs to provide excellant service while at the same time giving value for money.

Yes it does. Pity it's taken so much time and money wasted for Fianna Fail to say that in public. Oh well. Another twenty years or so and we might have the process ready to be put start.

The system needs reform. All past governments over the last 30 years should have done it but hopefully Michael Martin will reform it.

And hopefully I'll win the lotto tonight.
And I haven't bought a lotto ticket - but frankly I think I've got the better odds.

The abolishment of Health Boards is a very small first step.

That should have been taken years ago. Asking for credit for taking it now is like running someone down in your car while heavily drunk, trying to flee the scene, not talking to the person for weeks and then expecting acclaim for taking an adminstrative slap to the wrist and no penalty whatsoever.

Cork

Michael Martin has put health reform on the agenda. Reports have been written and findings will be implemented.

The ban on smoking is a health issue. In the EU - Michael Martin has taken the iniatative.

Michael Martin is a very capable politician. I am sure he will not shy away from health reform.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Michael Martin has put health reform on the agenda.

That's not something he deserves any credit for. Health reform has been on the agenda longer than he's been a minister, and it wasn't first put there by a FF TD either.

Reports have been written and findings will be implemented.

Really? And what do you base this naievely hopeful opinion on?

The ban on smoking is a health issue. In the EU - Michael Martin has taken the iniatative.

Indeed, and other FF TDs have lined up to put a knife in him for it.

Michael Martin is a very capable politician. I am sure he will not shy away from health reform.

Cork, first off I wouldn't go describing anyone I liked as a "capable politician" since where I come from it's an insult. You might want to find a better way of praising the man.
Secondly, nothing in his record says he'll get either the smoking ban or the health reforms done.

star gazer

In the clash of the titans Sparks and Cork i would have to go with Sparks on this one. The civil service aren't going to let Mr. Martin near a serious reform package. It will take a minister who isn't jostling to be as popular to everyone as possible who doesn't have immediate leadership ambitions to drive reforms through. The only seemingly courageous thing Martin has done is the smoking ban but i would contend it is a smokescreen for real reform. It takes the pressure off him to implement his reform reports.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks


Cork, first off I wouldn't go describing anyone I liked as a "capable politician" since where I come from it's an insult. You might want to find a better way of praising the man.
Secondly, nothing in his record says he'll get either the smoking ban or the health reforms done.

The smoking ban is a cert. The pub lobby might as well accept that.

Health reform needs to be done as a metter of priority. Nested Groups will be taken on there as well.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
The smoking ban is a cert. The pub lobby might as well accept that.

Much as I agree with the smoking ban, it's pretty typical of FF arrogance and disingenuity to do what's been done regarding it. By which I mean a high-handed ban on smoking in the workplace instead of an outright ban on a product that is known to kill people.

Health reform needs to be done as a metter of priority. Nested Groups will be taken on there as well.

Health reform has been a necessary priority for longer than the six years a FF/PD government has been running things. It wasn't done for the past six years, why would it be done now?

star gazer

Health reform needs to be done as a metter of priority. Nested Groups will be taken on there as well.
Cork

Yes but this government have had six years and a more than doubling of spending in health to do it, but both leaders in waiting (Miceál Martin, Brian Cowen) failed. Brian Cowen famously called the department of health 'Angola' which meant he hadn't a clue what he was doing there. Martin has promised us all the sun moon and stars and we got delay and media management. Health waiting lists were to be ended in two years. It didn't happen. Why should we believe now that Martin will forget all he has been doing in the past, which was to deflect from change and leave report after report not implemented, and turn around to take on the vested groups in the health sector (incl his own department).
The smoking ban is there to keep people from taking about a health service crippled by inefficiencies and unaccountable money spending. Where has the nine billion gone?

Cork

Originally posted by star gazer
Where has the nine billion gone?

Health spending was £3 billion in 1997. It is going up 11% this year.

Deapartment Of Health is getting vast amounts of money.

Value For Money within the service has got to be achieved.

Throwing money at health will not solve problems. This Minister has ensured big increases in funding. It the health question was solvable with money - it would be silved years ago.

Funds have got to to be spent effectively. If health unions have got to be taken on - to get Value For Money.

Then, Take them on.

I could moan about the system and my bad experiences with it. But moaning solves nothing.

It is a question of managing resources effectively to ensure a good service for all.

The smoking ban is a health measure.If people want to smoke - let them - but not in the workplace.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks

Health reform has been a necessary priority for longer than the six years a FF/PD government has been running things. It wasn't done for the past six years, why would it be done now?

Reports have been compiled and plans have been issued.

In fact - it should have been done under previos Ministers.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Reports have been compiled and plans have been issued.
In fact - it should have been done under previos Ministers.

Well, I've seen that statement before, so I'll give you my original answer:

Bull****. "plans", "agenda", "timetable" - all FF words for "don't ask, we'll take credit for it after the next government does the scut work and loses the election for making the hard choices that made the work possible in the first place".

gandalf

Originally posted by Cork
Reports have been compiled and plans have been issued.

In fact - it should have been done under previos Ministers.

Blah Blah Blah. FF are great at plans and reports and then not acting on them. I believe your Mr. McGreedy was on TV3's agenda today not ruling out cutting back on the 3000 beds part of the wonderful health service reforms More broken promises on the way by the looks of it.

The basic fact is they had the best opportunity to sort out the health service with the most resources that any Irish government has ever had and they dropped the ball (thereby condemning alot of ordinary people to agony and even death. But I suppose the developers, publicians, tax dodgers, TD's can all get private health care so they will be ok).

Gandalf.

Cork

Originally posted by gandalf


The basic fact is they had the best opportunity to sort out the health service with the most resources that any Irish government has ever had and they dropped the ball (thereby condemning alot of ordinary people to agony and even death. But I suppose the developers, publicians, tax dodgers, TD's can all get private health care so they will be ok).
Gandalf.

You need to plan for change. It cannot be implemented over-night. You need also need to consult. A good consultation process can make change easier to implement.

On the same Agenda programme - Mr. McCreevy pointed out that the health system is well resourced compared with health systems in other developed countries. Massive increases in public spending have been delivered by this government.

Massive amounts of tax payers money is being spent on the service. People are using the system daily. The planned overhaul is long overdue.

But I suppose the developers, publicians, tax dodgers, TD's can all get private health care so they will be ok

Many PAYE workers have private health insurance.

Doctors, nurses and other staff in the health system work hard. This government has makes €9 billion available. I think that is over €6000 per tax payer.

The system needs reform. Hard choices will have to be made. We need a better and more efficent health system.

I have worked for a short period in a hospital. I have had bad experiences in hospitals - but I think those working in the system deserve credit.

The government has recognised there is no quick fix to the system. Consultation is now happening. Implemmentation is the next step. Michael Marin is a decent politician. I think - he will be remembered as a good Minister for Health.

The system has had problems going back beyond the times of Michael Noonan & Brendan Howlin. These reports should deliver a better health system.

Charlie McCreevy stated in that very same interview - health spending will increase by 11%. I think this government is coming up with decent plans for health. I think that they have decided on implementation after consultation.

Could you point to anyone with better plans??


Now, back to the smoking ban - It was decided by governmrnt months ago. People who work in the hotel & Catering industry should be albe to work in an area free of fag smoke.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
You need to plan for change. It cannot be implemented over-night. You need also need to consult. A good consultation process can make change easier to implement.

*falls off chair laughing*
Cork, you really do take the biscuit.
Everything FF have done points to an inability to plan, an inability to execute and an ability to do anything but pilfer money off the top.
"cannot be implemented overnight"? "need to plan for change"? The plans have been on the books for years before the FF/PDs took over, and they've been in there for six years. They can't do it, that's the end of the story. Time to get rid of them.

On the same Agenda programme - Mr. McCreevy pointed out that the health system is well resourced compared with health systems in other developed countries. Massive increases in public spending have been delivered by this government.

Guess what Cork? I can burn money just as well. It's just that I don't call it "leadership" or "competence".

Massive amounts of tax payers money is being spent on the service. People are using the system daily. The planned overhaul is long overdue.

Another irrelevant truism? Don't you have a finite supply of these cork?

Many PAYE workers have private health insurance.

Those that can afford it. Quite a damning indictment on FF/PD track records, isn't it?

Doctors, nurses and other staff in the health system work hard. This government has makes €9 billion available. I think that is over €6000 per tax payer.

Yes, but how much of that goes on administration and how much on actual work?

The system needs reform. Hard choices will have to be made. We need a better and more efficent health system.

Damn straight - it's been that way for close to a decade now. So it's time to chuck the current shower out of government and get in someone that could be described as half-way competent.

I have worked for a short period in a hospital. I have had bad experiences in hospitals - but I think those working in the system deserve credit.

Another spurious truism. And a funny one at that, since you're trying desperately to give the credit to Martin&Co when it's the doctors and nurses that deserve it.

The government has recognised there is no quick fix to the system.

Probably because if they did, people would ask why it wasn't taken for the last six years...

Consultation is now happening.

Happening again you mean Cork - those consultations have been happening for years and we could have begun implementation many years ago.

Implemmentation is the next step. Michael Marin is a decent politician. I think - he will be remembered as a good Minister for Health.

Compared to whom?

The system has had problems going back beyond the times of Michael Noonan & Brendan Howlin. These reports should deliver a better health system.

My goodness. Blame the politicians that came before for problems that were there before them, then demand credit for solving problems six years after being elected to fix them back then?
Not bad cork, not bad. Keep this up and you'll soon be able to convincingly argue that not only is black white, but that it's so obvious that only a FG/Labour politician couldn't see it....

Charlie McCreevy stated in that very same interview - health spending will increase by 11%. I think this government is coming up with decent plans for health. I think that they have decided on implementation after consultation.

If that's true - and it's by no means obvious that it is, and the wise money is on it not being true - then they're only six years and billions of euro and lives late...

Could you point to anyone with better plans??

Yes. The doctors groups that had plans to fix the problem for the last decade at least.

Now, back to the smoking ban

Cork, are you actually wandering back towards topic?

It was decided by governmrnt months ago. People who work in the hotel & Catering industry should be albe to work in an area free of fag smoke.

So answer one question Cork - why not ban the things completely then?

star gazer

Health spending was £3 billion in 1997. It is going up 11% this year. Deapartment Of Health is getting vast amounts of money. Value For Money within the service has got to be achieved.Throwing money at health will not solve problems.
Cork

How could it take six and a half years for two of Fianna Fáil's supposed leading lights (Martin and Cowen) to figure this out? Very few companies or departments could ever take a doubling of resources in four years without big changes, surely it would have been very naive to think that structures designed for so much money and employees could handle double the money and an extra half employees?

You need to plan for change. It cannot be implemented over-night. You need also need to consult. A good consultation process can make change easier to implement.
Cork

The trouble is and this is where the whole thread is relevant to what the title is about, there have been any number of attempts to deflect away from actually implementing real fundamental reforms in the health service. The writing of reports has come and gone. We have three reports waiating for months to be implemented or even published and we have a smoking ban which is deflecting from the need for action from government on health reform.
Even this last week an eminent cardilogist Dr Maurice Nelligan
called for Micheál Martin to resign on the grounds of incompetence, why should i disagree with this doctor?

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Health spending was £3 billion in 1997. It is going up 11% this year.

...

Throwing money at health will not solve problems. This Minister has ensured big increases in funding. It the health question was solvable with money - it would be silved years ago.

Wow...both sides of the argument in a single post...

Go figure

jc

Cork

Originally posted by bonkey
Wow...both sides of the argument in a single post...

Go figure

jc

I was making the point of health reform is urgently needed. Money alone will not solve the problems that are in the system.