United - Living with Shame

Dr Bolouswki

I watched the United v Birmingham match with a Man Utd mate of mine last week, and he made the point that he was ashamed sometimes to support United because of the 'idiot's that shout them on. Now, keep in mind this guy has been United all his life, will never change his allegiance and is big into his football (regularly chatted with me about Super City's 1st and 2nd division rivals in our doldrum days)...

Question is, do any of you other United fans feel this way? It's unavoidable that bandwagon jumpers will leap to your cause, but I must say that it really annoys me that so many United fans seem to have no knowledge of football outside United's team, fail to see their teams efforts objectively, slag off all other teams with wild abandon etc etc ad naseum ad naseum...

I mean, these boards are a case in point. I've seen Utd fans extol the virtues of Gary neville over Sami Hyppia, Butt over Gerard and even as we speak some poor fool is predicting United to win another treble this season!

C'mon. I know there are knoledgable thouroughbred United supporters out there. Does your fan base not cause you shame?

GuanYin

the Irony is, many who reply to this are the people you are talking about.

I like Utd, I like the way they play and I'm an admirer of some of their players and find that generally, they are an exciting team.

One or two players annoy me (I have a long list of them, not exclusively Utd, Le Saux and Ashley Cole are on the list) but basically having to listen to the fanatical tripe that some of their tunnel visioned fans come out with is unbearable.

The fans think its jealosy and another irony is that its them that most people have the problem with, and not united.

Big Ears

i know lots of people who claim they are man united fans . they mock other teams yet still they couldnt name one man u player. This is why a lot of us hate many united and think there arogent. Arogent like that horseface.

jank

in my opinion Utd ruined football!!

with all their superstores and comercial interets more important than football

in my opinion the greatest ever club team and era for club football was in the late 80's and early nineties were ac milan.

utd were like a sunday league team compared to them.

but once the league titles started rolling in so did the marketing and the exploitation of football fans where there was a quick buck to be made in the name of football

and every team in the world has followed their lead!!

i.e selling jerseys buys success and screw the real football fans

im afraid arsenal have been caught in htis trap too

Pepe LeFrits

I'm with you jank!!! down with commercialisation!!! lets kill those capitalist pigdogs!!!

jank

ill buy the bullets if u get the gun ok:D

talla

As a United supporter, I have to agree with you, the standard of United Supporters on this board really bugs me, they are a real let down. In the pubs, I dont know, i've never really noticed, i'd say at most there is about 25% of fans that havent a clue about the real united, football in general etc, they just jumped on the bandwagon and will disappear if times get tough again. But its the same with a lot of football supporters, except maybe Arsenal supporters, I havent got a bad word to say about them apart from all the conspiracy theories. They are loyal, and most of them are around from the late 80's early 90's. But what i've started to notice with some Liverpool supporters is that when Liverpool are losing or struggling, the jumper/fleese/jacket whatever is left on, but as soon as they score, all of a sudden the jumper flies off, and they are sitting there proudly in their jersey. Again this is only a small minority of supporter maybe 10-15% at max, but it does go show that all clubs have their fair weather supporters.

Pepe LeFrits

nah, its true of arsenal fans aswell. only recently there was a thread where a load of arsenal 'fans' started pissing and moaning about various arse players after ONE defeat.

success breeds this sort of thing. United have lots of them because they've had a lot of success in recent years, and if Arsenal keep winning trophies over the next few years they'll have plenty of them too sadly.

BKtje

Question is, do any of you other United fans feel this way?

Yes and especially on these boards at times. The idiotic things some people come out with
(im sure ive said a few as well tho )

The Brigadier

Man Utd are the most hated team in England, because of their FANS....

Fans of "The Reds" (Shower of ****s the "Reds" are Liverpool FYI..MUFC have allways been known as "The Red Devils") think it is jealousy based on success...Ar'se...

When Liverpool were winning left right and centre (Including regular wins in Europe) they were envied because of their quality, but not hated.... Most Man Utd fans have never been to Manchester, in fact the most successful London team in the Premiebarge is not Arsenal but Man Utd....

It is the smug, we deserve to win because we are Man Utd attitude that really narcs everyone off.... The 5 mins of stoppage time at Old Trafford if MU are down... The lack of footballing knowledge outside "The Theatre of Dreams".... The fair weather attitudes (Remember 1989-90 bar the cup final).... Oh and the scummy fans.....

Did you know the last person to be killed at a football game in the UK was killed by a Man Utd fan! (Man Utd V Crystal Palace - FA Cup Semi 1994)

Oh and just so you know I am not a Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelsea Fan... I am a Crystal Palace fan, that is were I am from, I didn't choose my team, it chose me....

The Muppet

Question is, do any of you other United fans feel this way?

On the law of averages Ùtd being the best supported club in the world they are bound to have a lot of the type of the fans you describe . The Fair weather fan are drawn by success and as long as Utd continue to dominate football these will contine to be attracted to the club just as they were to other teams in the past.

jongore

Originally posted by James Melody
Man Utd are the most hated team in England, because of their FANS....

When Liverpool were winning left right and centre (Including regular wins in Europe) they were envied because of their quality, but not hated.... Most Man Utd fans have never been to Manchester, in fact the most successful London team in the Premiebarge is not Arsenal but Man Utd....

This is the usual tripe brought out by ABUs, I can remember the 80s quite well and those that did not support Liverpool hated them with a passion. (Yes and envied them as well) After Hysel the main thing that could be heard was 'Typical of that Liverpool scum!'.

Success breeds comtempt, this is a fact of life.

There is no law which says you have to live in/be from/visit the city your team originaly came from. MUFC supporters club has over 600,000 official members and I'm afraid that'd be a tight squeeze even for old trafford.

And as for United fans, there is unfortunatly a large uneducated group which have jumped on the bandwagon and at times they make me cringe but I have found the same type of fan for almost every major Premeirship club.

How many Liverpool fans have extolled the virtues of Heskey?
How many Arse fans have waxed eloquent over Kanu?
And God help me United fans have sung the praises of Forlan!

Every group of supporters has its uninformed, tunnel vision branch!

colster

I've been a United fan for over 20 years and I remember the days when Liverpool were winning everything.
I also remember how obnoxious and arrogant some of their fans were at the time.
I think that a successful team will always have a certain element who are arrogant.
Utd are doing well now so they have a lot more supportes and thus have some idiots supporting them as Liverpool or Arsenal do and did.

I have to disagree about Utd's commercialism ruining football though.
This was always going to happen after the advent of Sky and the constant publicity that soccer gets.
Utd haven't forced anyone to buy their kit or other merchandise. Just look what happened to the United shop and cafe in Dublin.They've just tapped the market for the betterment of the club, players and fans.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by jongore
This is the usual tripe brought out by ABUs, I can remember the 80s quite well and those that did not support Liverpool hated them with a passion. (Yes and envied them as well) After Hysel the main thing that could be heard was 'Typical of that Liverpool scum!'.

Well I don't know what was happening in Ireland but in England this was not the case.. Everyone wanted to beat Liverpool - but the hatred of the fans was NOT there....

I was over the moon when we beat them in the cup semi...and then when we beat them 1-0 in the league the season afterwards...oh I was in heaven....

Imposter

Originally posted by James Melody
Fans of "The Reds" (Shower of ****s the "Reds" are Liverpool FYI..MUFC have allways been known as "The Red Devils") ...

And Liverpool "The Red Army".

cournioni

I would not consider bandwagon jumpers fans of any club. It is not right to call them United, Arsenal, Liverpool or Chelsea "fans" because they're not. They are simply entertainment fans. That is all I have to say.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by Imposter
And Liverpool "The Red Army".

Not that I have ever heard them referred to as such. Liverpool F.C. 's official nickname is "The Reds".

This was also listed in the Rothmans Football Yearbook last time I checked....

IgnatiusJRiley

Originally posted by sykeirl
The fans think its jealosy and another irony is that its them that most people have the problem with, and not united.

True. Very True.

Imposter

Originally posted by James Melody
Not that I have ever heard them referred to as such. Liverpool F.C. 's official nickname is "The Reds".

This was also listed in the Rothmans Football Yearbook last time I checked....

Well I'm basing this on about 15 years ago when I got a Red Devils bag and my brother got a Red Army bag for christmas (cheap but official things before all this mass commercialism stuff happened)

Just done a quick google and Liverpool are definitely refered to as "The Red Army". Others also mention them as the "Reds"!

So can anyone shed more light on this vital piece of information?

brucealmighty

Did you know the last person to be killed at a football game in the UK was killed by a Man Utd fan! (Man Utd V Crystal Palace - FA Cup Semi 1994)

If you really want to debate this topic I think you'll find that "supporters" of other teams have an awful lot more to be ashamed of than Utd do.

The Brigadier

They may be referred to as "The Red Army" in the same way as Ireland during the world cup in 1990 were referred to by many as "Jackie's Army"

The official name for them is "The Reds" however...

The Brigadier

Originally posted by brucealmighty
If you really want to debate this topic I think you'll find that "supporters" of other teams have an awful lot more to be ashamed of than Utd do.

But these teams (The likes of Leeds and Millwall spring to mind)
don't sing out to all and sundry how great their fans are...

cournioni

Originally posted by James Melody
But these teams (The likes of Leeds and Millwall spring to mind)
don't sing out to all and sundry how great their fans are...

Yes but you are referring to ONE United fan out of millions. Leeds and Millwall fans (PLURAL) are known for their hooligan supporters.

jesus_thats_gre

The original poster made some excellent points. I as a Liverpool supporter, absoutely hate ManU supporters, well the ****wits who constantly brag and make stupid statements they cant back up. Obviously every club has there fair share of these idiots but United's success in recent times has resulted in them having many times more than any other club.

United as a club, are a club to admire though. You cant but respect what they have done in the last 15 years and can only dream for my own club to emulate what they have done. Assuming we dont get all the ****wits jumping ship that is!

The Brigadier

Well anytime MUFC have travelled to Selhurst I have been less than impressed by them....

I don't think MUFC have 1 hooligan fan.... They have quite a lot of thugs in their midst....

cournioni

Originally posted by jesus_thats_gre
The original poster made some excellent points. I as a Liverpool supporter, absoutely hate ManU supporters, well the ****wits who constantly brag and make stupid statements they cant back up.

Most United fans will say the same about Liverpool fans, to be honest.

Ronaldo7

Look these arseholes aren't exclusively Utd fans. Theres arseholes that "support" other teams of other sports around the world. Its not just football fans and it certainly is not only Utd fans.

Emboss

and of course all arsenal/chelsea/liverpool etc fans are all very well educated in the game and are completley non biased :rolleyes:

these boards are hardly a good comparison for 'real' football fans considering some people have never heard of liverpool being refered to as 'the red army'

and if you watch most threads here on a saturday evening it's just pityfull tbh

smemon

fans of any club are generally no different, everyone brags and enjoys trophies when u win them, it may be your last ever trophy.

these bandwagan supporters may not have a notion of football but they're stupid enough to buy the jersys and merchandise which generates massive revenue for the club. its the sheer size and financial power of utd that people fear.

they'll do and say anything to try and take away some of that success. the biggest clubs have no friends, all enimies.

Ronaldo7

these bandwagan supporters may not have a notion of football but they're stupid enough to buy the jersys and merchandise which generates massive revenue for the club. its the sheer size and financial power of utd that people fear.

Same with any other club...

smemon

yes but utd being one of the biggest in the world rakes in huge amounts from merchandise, more than anyone in the world.

the japanese etc.. all buy the shirts and this makes the club so big that new footie fans will immediately follow the biggest club, or one of them. these are the one's that ruin football, they invest in a club but cant name 2 players on the team and because they own the jersey, see the results, they think they know what their talking about which to me and u is absolute rubbish.

brucealmighty

But these teams (The likes of Leeds and Millwall spring to mind)

I was thinking more of Liverpool. Are their supporters proud of their history .

All clubs have an amount of assholes as supporters , Utd are no different.

BKtje

I ain't too hot on footie before i started supporting it cos tbh i don't care much about it. I dislike people who live in the past (probably cos i dont like living in the past) but wasn't in L'pool supporters who got English clubs banned from European football?

If im wrong i apologise but i thought i read that somewhere, i could very easily be wrong so all you who feel like flaming me over this possible mistake do so but you would really look like a twit

Dr Bolouswki

Well well...

I was totally expecting to get flamed for this thread, but I'm really glad to see many people making good valid points...

Personally, I've tonnes of respect for United under Ferguson. You can't argue with their record, they play exciting attacking football and with Van Horse and Scholes they have, imo, two of THE BEST players in the world...

It's their fans that cause me all the heartache. However, if my beloved blues MAN CITY ever make it to the level of United (I know I'm dreaming) I think having the same level of ill-educated laiisez fair fans would really annoy me...

Sometimes it's great to feel different...

p.pete

I'd have to say that the exuberance of manu fans can be quite annoying at times. Certainly while Arsenal have been doing really well recently there hasn't seemed to have been as many people supporting them purely for "entertainment" as pornapster put it.

I'm sure it was the same when Liverpool were doing well (wish I could remember that far back ) but I think with manu there was a number of factors that helped the appearance their supporters ranks seem to have risen exponentially in the last 10 years. For a start they have always had a huge support of middle aged men who had been lying low for roughly 30 years. When their moment came they were going to grasp it. My Da is a Man City fan and is generally quiet enough about football but should Kev ever manage to get them the league I'm sure he will be unbearable, a normal reaction from woodwork supporters.

Also when manu started winning the 90's they had quite a youthful squad and a lot of teen magazines decided giggsy and sharp and the likes were cool. Teenage girls raved about them without really having a clue and I don't think anyone had ever fawned over the likes of Ian Rush and Peter Beardsly in that manner before.

Add to this a classy frenchman that liked to wear his collar like a twat and united were well on their way to getting up the noses of other fans like never before.

talla

That's not really what's being talked about though

Pete, the poster was just directly replying to James Melody point about United fans being involved in the last murder between two sets of supporters in the Premiership. I think that was the only reason he brought it up.

p.pete

Fair enough talla, post edited....

The Muppet

I would mostly agree with pete last post on this topic ( I missed the edited bit). As one that was around at the timeI can also see james melodys point that united seem to be hated more than say liverpool were when they we having their most sucessful period. I would put the differences in attitude down to changes in society in general where most people like to see the top dog taken down a peg or two and it is fashionable to dislike the sucessful.

On a side note I was wondering as jamesmelody is a palace fan who dislikes united could he be the fat bloke that god sorted out at selhurst park a few years ago.

(for the youger viewers god = Eric Cantona);)

LoneGunM@n

I have to agree with most of the points made on this thread!!

I've been a United supporter for about 23 years .... but I think myself to be impartial when it comes to comparing teams and players, this being due to the fact that I've been a football fan for that length of time too .... of course that doesn't stop me from making a complete ars3 of myself :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

There is nothing worse [in footballing terms] tham seeing people make complete ars3s of themselves, trying to argue a point /slag off another team/player, when it's obvious they haven't got a breeze about the team they are supporting for that week, let alone about the other team/player!!

It's like the saying goes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and most of these supporters have very very little knowledge!!

In relation to the band wagon jumpers, every club, when they are going through a purple patch, draw the clingeroners .... just look @ Villa

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologise for my remark about Villa fans. There are true Villa fans out there .... and this comment was not made about you. It's directed @ a friend of mine who was a Liverpool fan until Villa won the league!!

In relation to commercialism, as said before, it was a foregone conclusion that football was going to become a commercial entity with the introduction of Sky & those fceking Spice Boys [@ United & Liverpool]

p.pete

PhatFiesta, did Villa win the league in the 80's? they were usually there or there abouts but I can't remember when they would have won it.

I don't really have a problem someone who jumps on the bandwagon, when the club is in the spotlight they are bound to get more fans. It takes a baron period though to sort out which of those new followers actually are fans.
[edit]maybe that explains why so many Liverpool fans were annoying in 80s and manu fans now - smugness, and you don't quite know which fans are going to disappear when the results stop coming...

marct

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Yes you're right. The Liverpool fans caused the Heysel disaster in which many Juventus fans died.

It was a hell of a lot more complicated than that and putting up remarks like that on a public board is seriously irresponsible!:mad:

The Muppet

QUOTE]It was a hell of a lot more complicated than that and QUOTE]

How?

putting up remarks like that on a public board is seriously irresponsible![/

Its no more irresponsible than the comment that braught this down this road.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Interestingly, even though English teams were banned from europe, it was never proved whether the fans were provoked. Many fans on both sides agree that Missiles and Stones were thrown at the Liverpool fans from the Italians who were sitting in the neutral section, this may have been what caused the liverpool fans to press towards these neutral (read Juventus fans who bought tickets from touts outside). Then there is the fact that the wall which collapsed was proven to have been a crumbling heap before the game and that it would not have taken all that much pressure to knock it. Others have blamed poor organisation and lack of crowd control by the Belgian authorities, saying that there were insufficient police inside the stadium to prevent fans from clashing.

I agree with marct, putting up a statement like :-

"Yes you're right. The Liverpool fans caused the Heysel disaster in which many Juventus fans died."

Is very irresponsible, especially since culpability has never been proven. Just out of curiosity Porn, how many Juventus fans died at the game ?

Here is a link for those people who claim to know what happened but are just as clueless as those they came on here to criticise.

marct

Thanx Fish! Nothing like that can ever be blamed on one side and it never officially was. I definitely stick by my comment that it was irresponsible to post such an inflammatory and ignorant remark. BTW you might want to at least try to check your facts before wading in Muppet...:rolleyes:

Thanx 4 The Fish

Wrong answer Porn. 38 italians died and 1 belgian. Not all of the italians that died at the game were Juventus supporters and the belgain that died bought one of the neutral tickets.

I know that you were probably just joking :rolleyes: but no the Juventus fans did not kill each other they were killed by a combination of poor crowd control by the Belgian police, a chicken wired neutral supporters area full of italian fans, alot of provocation by those fans including throwing Missiles and stones, some annoyed liverpool supporters who broke down the chicken wire fence to get at these fans and a wall that was proven to be structurally unsound being pushed on by the same fans who were originally provoking the liverpool fans. Unfortunately alot of football fans died and while that is a sad fact, to blame it on Liverpool fans solely shows that you have no idea what went on there.

marct

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
39. And what? 39 Juve fans killed each other? Very doubtful.

This is exactly what I was talking about! By that bloody insane rationale the Sheffield Wednesday fans were responsible for Hillsborough as less of them died!:mad: The whole point is the fencing and wall that collapsed killing those fans- or are you too young to remember that. Seriously check yer facts first before posting incorrectly on such an emotive issue- trolling about something like this should be a banning offence!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

Thanx 4 The Fish

No, you are right, you did not bring up the disaster. The problem wasn't that the issue was brought up, or even the manner in which it was brought up. B-K-DzR said "if I am wrong I am sorry" .... "wasn't in L'pool supporters who got English clubs banned from European football?", and he was wrong, and he was sorry, or at least one would assume he was from the opening line.

The fact that you then came along and said

Yes you're right. The Liverpool fans caused the Heysel disaster in which many Juventus fans died.

is what exception was taken and would be taken to by both Liverpool fans and any football fan that knows what they are on about.

Having said that I am sure that there are some Liverpool fans that have no clue about what went on at Heysel either.

The Brigadier

My point seems to have been misunderstood....

I was not implying that ManUre have the worst fans in Britain, no there are much worse.... But other clubs do not harp on about how great their fans are to the same extent as Man Utd...

Just because in the middle of a prolonged purple patch your fans are allways happy is not the sign of "fantastic fans"..... I have lost count of the amount of times Alex Ferguson has said "It was great to win tonight for the fans, as they have really deserved it"...Bollocks...

Can I point out the fans of teams like West Ham are much better, still out supporting there Teams through thick and thin... If ManUtd were relegated how "Good" do you think the fans would be? Would they still turn out to cheer the "Red Devils"? Would they fu'ck.....

Oh and Muppet, I think it is a shining example of the depths to which ManUtd fans stoop, to be proud of Eric Canton for assaulting a fan.... Every Palace fan I have spoken to thinks that Mathew Simmons "the fan involved" was an embarresment to the club, even though we all hated "god"..

marct

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
No, the Hillsborough tragedy was caused by overcrowding in the terrace.

I'm not the one who brought it up. I'm sorry the arguement got this far.

Exactly and the Heysel tragedy wasnt specifically caused by Liverpool fans. There were many mitigating factors and your flippant remark is a gross oversimplification of a complex situation. And for your info, Liverpool fans were never officially made culpable. You should edit original your post.

talla

Unfortunately I have to agree with the pool fans on this one:D , but English teams werent banned from Europe because of Heysel alone and what the Liverpool fans did there(or didnt), but it was just the straw that broke the camels back with the hooligans from all english clubs in Europe causing trouble and then when following the national team. Looking back on the ban, it was very unfair that just english teams got banned considering german, italian and dutch hooligans were equally as bad(if not worse).

The Muppet

Posted by Marct
BTW you might want to at least try to check your facts before wading in Muppet

Which facts are you referring to?

I made no comments on who I considered to be at fault.

You also said it was distasteful to bring up the subject an i wondered an still do how it was anymore distasteful that the inital comments about the fan being killed at the Utd Match. As this is a discussion forum i dont think it unresonable to ask these questions.