United - Living with Shame

GuanYin · 09-10-2003 2:29pm

Originally posted by The Muppet
Which facts are you referring to?

I made no comments on who I considered to be at fault.

You also said it was distasteful to bring up the subject an i wondered an still do how it was anymore distasteful that the inital comments about the fan being killed at the Utd Match. As this is a discussion forum i dont think it unresonable to ask these questions.

So two wrongs make a right eh?

To be honest, I think its well off topic and how typical is it of a thread about manchester united supporters to suddely *somehow* :rolleyes: verge off to point out the inadequacies of other teams.

If you really want to look at supporters take the likes of West Ham, Sunderland, Man City who all have maintained huge crowds depsite the fact that they have played in lower divisions. City beat premiership attendances from Div. 2 on a couple of occasions!

I wonder would the same happen for United. Even their own players acknowledge how much of there attendances are of the "prawn sandwish" variety and then how many of the 600,000 strong fan membership are kids and bandwagon jumpers. If United went down or had a 5 year barren patch would the fans still be as loyal and strong. Somehow I don't think so.

jesus_thats_gre · 09-10-2003 2:30pm

Originally posted by PhatFiesta
I'd like to take this opportunity to apologise for my remark about Villa fans. There are true Villa fans out there .... and this comment was not made about you. It's directed @ a friend of mine who was a Liverpool fan until Villa won the league!!

Ah you know one of those as well, a mate of mine went from Liverpool to Villa when Steve Staunton moved to them..... Muppet.

marct · 09-10-2003 2:42pm

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
From the Liverpool FC Bootroom website:

Now 38 of the people who died just happened to be Italians. Am I not right to say that Liverpool fans and Juve fans caused it? Lets remember were talking about English teams here, we're not discussing Juventus.

Therefore I will not edit my post because that is my view on the matter.

Well your 'view' is based on hearsay and not fact. The link is another message board FFS. This site goes on to say:

'Now I know it's not quite as simple as that. There were mitigating factors, but does a crumbling stadium, poor segregation and a barrage of Italian intimidation get us off the hook ?' Which was pretty much my point that it wasnt as simple as blaming one set of supporters.
And you didnt originally say that Liverpool fans and Juve fans caused it- you were unequivocal in saying that Liverpool fans caused it which is factually inaccurate. You should edit your post!

GuanYin · 09-10-2003 2:44pm

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER

Now 38 of the people who died just happened to be Italians. Am I not right to say that Liverpool fans and Juve fans caused it? Lets remember were talking about English teams here, we're not discussing Juventus.

Therefore I will not edit my post because that is my view on the matter.

No, you said in your post that

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
The Liverpool fans caused the Heysel disaster in which many Juventus fans died.

Which is a gross mis-representation of what happened.

have a bit of cop on.

p.pete · 09-10-2003 2:51pm

This is a soccer board, not specific to england. European, scottish, irish and english and any other type can be discussed...

The Muppet · 09-10-2003 2:51pm

Posted by Sykeirl
To be honest, I think its well off topic and how typical is it of a thread about manchester united supporters to suddely *somehow* verge off to point out the inadequacies of other teams

The subject of deaths cause by fans at football matches was raised very ealy in this thread so as the thread title suggest that man u should be ashamed of thier supporters i thinks it is perfectly reasonable to make the argument that other clubs have a lot more to be ashamed of than Utd.

Please dont misquote on this subject as I have made no other comment on the tragedy other than to acknowledge that it actually happened.

BTW what happened to the new Theory?

marct · 09-10-2003 2:51pm

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
As I said. Juventus are not an English club, therefore I am not discussing them.

That is a poor excuse of a reply to try to get yourself out of the fact that you were completely wrong to oversimplify the Heysel disaster in the manner in which you did. Edit your post!!

marct · 09-10-2003 2:53pm

Originally posted by The Muppet
QUOTE]It was a hell of a lot more complicated than that and QUOTE]

How?

Its no more irresponsible than the comment that braught this down this road.

It was more complicated than that as it wasnt just Pool supporters in a vacuum that caused the Heysel disaster.

marct · 09-10-2003 2:54pm

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
But then it wouldn't be on topic would it p.pete? Unless you want to change the subject.

Jesus, the point is a dot on the horizon to you is'nt it? :rolleyes:

The Muppet · 09-10-2003 2:56pm

How many of you guy saw this unfold on TV?

marct · 09-10-2003 2:57pm

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
So you are saying that Liverpool fans are not responsible for charging at Juventus fans causing them to retreat, which resulted in the concrete wall collapsing onto many Juve supporters?

And why did they charge? Oh right I forgot its because all Liverpool fans are evil :rolleyes: We cant solve this here as we have no idea what we are talking about. The point is that you posted saying that it was Liverpool's fans fault. This is simply not true and they were not found culpable officially.

marct · 09-10-2003 2:59pm

Originally posted by The Muppet
How many of you guy saw this unfold on TV?

I watched it all- thats why I'm getting so heated about it. I was wearing my yellow away top with Crown Paints on it. I'll never forget it.

The Muppet · 09-10-2003 3:04pm

I watched it all- thats why I'm getting so heated about it. I was wearing my yellow away top with Crown Paints on it. I'll never forget it.

I dont think anyone is saying that Liverpool supporters we solely at fault but if you saw it all you have to accept that they were not Innocent either. as was stated earlier after this incicdent English clubs recieved an Indefinite ban from European football.
I am not aware of Juve recieving any censure.

Going back to an earlier post could you tell me which facts i got wrong.

p.pete · 09-10-2003 3:05pm

PORNAPSTER, are you a manu fan? I'd be ashamed to have you as a pool fan, or even an Irish fan.

marct · 09-10-2003 3:07pm

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
UEFA seem to think they were culpable enough to ban English teams from playing in Europe. And don't tell me that it was because they "don't like the English" etc. etc.

Right, this is getting silly. You should be banned for trolling or else you are just an...I wont finish that or else I'll get banned. As Fish has already said Heysel was the straw that broke the camels back. English and European hooliganism was rampant at the time and something had to be done in the eyes of UEFA. See if you took any time to read any posts but your own, what is being said is that Pool fans were'nt solely to blame for this. For the hard of reading I'll say that again- SOLELY!! This does not mean that Pool fans should not have any blame aportioned to them.There were other factors at work as well. Nothing happens in a vacuum- grow up!!

marct · 09-10-2003 3:09pm

Originally posted by The Muppet
I dont think anyone is saying that Liverpool supporters we solely at fault but if you saw it all you have to accept that they were not Innocent either. as was stated earlier after this incicdent English clubs recieved an Indefinite ban from European football.
I am not aware of Juve recieving any censure.

Going back to an earlier post could you tell me which facts i got wrong.

Absolutely! There was definitely some blame to be shouldered by Liverpool fans but (and Im repeating myself now:) ) there were mitigating factors including less than innocent Juve fans, inadequate policing, dilapidated stadium etc etc

marct · 09-10-2003 3:12pm

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Sorry for giving my opinion.

As a Mod, you should have a bit more sense than to give a completely inaccurate opinion based on hearsay on such an emotive issue on somewhere populated by partisan fans.

marct · 09-10-2003 3:24pm

This is what you said:

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Yes you're right. The Liverpool fans caused the Heysel disaster in which many Juventus fans died.

That is a defenceless case. 'They' did not cause 39 people to die. A mixture of factors did. This has been recognised by the official investigation after the event. In fairness what age are you that this is beyond you to understand?

marct · 09-10-2003 3:35pm

Again, why did they charge? Because they are bad people? For the laugh? No, because of raining missiles, because of crushing in the Pool section- hence the reason that in the official investigation blame was'nt apportioned to the Liverpool supporters. By official I mean the police.

Thanx 4 The Fish · 09-10-2003 3:38pm

That is not a fact Porn. The liverpool fans charged at the "Neutral" section of the supporters. The "Neutral" supporters were actually the ones who broke the wall. You say that Liverpool fans chose to cahrge at the Juve fans. Official investigation says that they were provoked, is a bit different to choosing, and that the Italian fans that got into the neutral section were the instigators, "throwing missiles and stones at liverpool fans.

With all that was going on in english football at the time, hooliganism at internationals, with other teams in europe and even domestically, they felt that some punitive censure had to be taken against english clubs. Again, the Heysel stadium disaster was the last straw and not the sole event which had english teams banned from europe.

Thanx 4 The Fish · 09-10-2003 3:43pm

Enough about the Heysel disaster.

That is all.

talla · 09-10-2003 3:52pm

Originally posted by marct
. As Fish has already said Heysel was the straw that broke the camels back. English and European hooliganism was rampant at the time and something had to be done in the eyes of UEFA. See if you took any time to read any posts but your own, what is being said is that Pool fans were'nt solely to blame for this. For the hard of reading I'll say that again- SOLELY!! This does not mean that Pool fans should not have any blame aportioned to them.There were other factors at work as well. Nothing happens in a vacuum- grow up!!

Actually I think I said that:D

jesus_thats_gre · 09-10-2003 4:10pm

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
"A mixture of factors caused it to happen". Yes a mixture of minor factors that happen at alot of games yet at those games there are only minor injuries if injuries at all. The Liverpool fans charged forward and caused Juventus fans to put pressure on the wall which caused it to collapse on top of other fans. That is a FACT. Liverpool fans CHOSE to charge at the Juve fans. Therefore they are at fault.

I'm 18.5 years old roughly.

I was trying to stay out of this, I dont know all the facts about the incident, but you have back yourself against a wall and are proving that you are little more than a silly child. Its not your teacher you are arguing with here about whether or not you were talking to the person sitting next to you.

The stuff you said was wrong and you could at least be decent enough to apologise, especially considering the extent to which your points have been disproven.

smemon · 09-10-2003 5:52pm

interesting how a manu threads turn into liverpool threads and liverpool threads turn into utd threads.

anyway, i think its unfair to blame either sets of fans, no1 really knows what happened only 39 people died. liverpool fans are some of the best behaved fans in the world, never cause much trouble and back their team always.

as with all clubs, theres a few exceptions and incidents of violence but its no good arguing about the past, nobody can change it. all we can do is learn from it.

jesus_thats_gre · 09-10-2003 6:16pm

Originally posted by smemon
anyway, i think its unfair to blame either sets of fans, no1 really knows what happened only 39 people died. liverpool fans are some of the best behaved fans in the world, never cause much trouble and back their team always.

You are not gonna win me over with your filthy lies

GuanYin · 09-10-2003 6:17pm

Originally posted by smemon
interesting how a manu threads turn into liverpool threads and liverpool threads turn into utd threads.

anyway, i think its unfair to blame either sets of fans, no1 really knows what happened only 39 people died. liverpool fans are some of the best behaved fans in the world, never cause much trouble and back their team always.

as with all clubs, theres a few exceptions and incidents of violence but its no good arguing about the past, nobody can change it. all we can do is learn from it.

Well said....

hold on... you're smemon... that was a really rational and reasonable point.... whats going on??!??! has the world gone mad?? What have you done with the REAL smemon???

hehe..only kidding man

The Muppet · 09-10-2003 6:25pm

I thought the mod said enough said on the topic.

I too would agree that Liverpool fans have a fantastic reputation of being knowledgeable and well behaved in general. However you can not ignore the fact that on this tragic occasion the were partly at fault.

I don't think a thread like this saying certain clubs were living with shame when referring to their supporters is conducive to harmony on the board. In fact its instigator said that he expected a backlash from Utd supporters when he posted it. I would also remind everyone that it was not a Man U fan that introduced the topic of fans dieing at matches into this thread.

Big Ears · 09-10-2003 7:04pm

And back to talking about how we all hate bandwagon supporters and enough about heysel. I love being a newcastle fan. not a bandwagon supporter in sight(at the moment anyway)

Ronaldo7 · 09-10-2003 7:42pm

back on topic lads...i enjoy lurking this interesting thread!

Hobart · 09-10-2003 9:09pm

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Opinions are opinions. If you don't like it, deal with it.

Well I am old enough to actually remember looking at what happened live. And to be frank you have'nt a fuucking clue what you are talking about.

cournioni · 09-10-2003 9:46pm

I have deleted all of my posts relating to the Heysel disaster. My opinion stands right where it is. And I just think it is a shame that Liverpool fans cannot accept that they have a minority of fans that cause trouble. I too have watched the footage of the tragedy and I was giving my opinion like so many others have done in this thread. Many people I know, and many Liverpool fans I know condemned their fans actions on that day.

In my experience on this board I have noticed that Liverpool fans have failed to face facts and opinions when they are being accused of something by trying to belittle the accuser etc etc. In this case it was me. I hope in future that they just clench their fist and just accept that they are wrong/or accept someones opinion against them like I have with the Crystal Palace killing many years ago, as much as I hated to say it.

There, I've finished my rant. Now carry on with the damn thread.

Please do not edit this T4TF. If anyone wants to reply to this or tell me that I'm wrong! wrong! wrong! then PM me please.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

p.pete · 09-10-2003 10:41pm

Originally posted by smemon
interesting how a manu threads turn into liverpool threads and liverpool threads turn into utd threads.

anyway, i think its unfair to blame either sets of fans, no1 really knows what happened only 39 people died. liverpool fans are some of the best behaved fans in the world, never cause much trouble and back their team always.

as with all clubs, theres a few exceptions and incidents of violence but its no good arguing about the past, nobody can change it. all we can do is learn from it.

I like the new smemon, I'm sure it's about as stable as a Liverpool winning streak but credit where credit is due

jesus_thats_gre · 09-10-2003 11:29pm

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
I have deleted all of my posts relating to the Heysel disaster. My opinion stands right where it is. And I just think it is a shame that Liverpool fans cannot accept that they have a minority of fans that cause trouble. I too have watched the footage of the tragedy and I was giving my opinion like so many others have done in this thread. Many people I know, and many Liverpool fans I know condemned their fans actions on that day.

In my experience on this board I have noticed that Liverpool fans have failed to face facts and opinions when they are being accused of something by trying to belittle the accuser etc etc. In this case it was me. I hope in future that they just clench their fist and just accept that they are wrong/or accept someones opinion against them like I have with the Crystal Palace killing many years ago, as much as I hated to say it.

There, I've finished my rant. Now carry on with the damn thread.

Please do not edit this T4TF. If anyone wants to reply to this or tell me that I'm wrong! wrong! wrong! then PM me please.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

To be honest, I cant reply in PM because you being such a spoilt little child. No one here suggested that Liverpool supporters were not involved in it or that were not partly responsible for it. You have every right to state your opinions, but you are always going to get flamed when your make such accusations about such a serious incident, basing your opinion on incorrect facts, and then defending your opinion even when it has been disproven by numerous people with accurate facts...

Back on topic, United are the biggest club in the world and have some of the most famous players in the world. They take advantage of the fame of these players to sell club merchandise. We might as well get used it as its only going to get worse, Real buying Beckham in my opionion was driving by the desire to expand even more so into Asia and sell more jerseys, his abilities as a player took second place i think.. His abilities and the way he has proven himself in Spain has been a plesent bonus.

Dr Bolouswki · 10-10-2003 12:56am

My imitation of an argument...

The Hillsborough disaster was caused by Liverpool fans. This is a FACT. Too many Liverpool fans went into the Liverpool end of the Sheffield Wednesday ground and the one's at the front got crushed and killed. FACT. The liverpool fans CHOOSE to go into the overcrowded area and are therefore partly responsible for the deaths on that day...*

Now, Pornapster, if the above does not illustrate to you the idiocy of your simplistic argument, the only recommendation I can make is GROW A FCUKING BRAIN!!!!!!!!

*for anyone who thinks this is my REAL opinion, please go hang out with Pornapster

Apologies for flaming pornapster, I normally enjoy your posts, but man, your logic and argument on this is sooo flawed....

Jacques Buffon · 10-10-2003 9:51am

the only reason pornapster-asshat supports man u is because they win all the time - just ignore him and he might go away, please god. wanker.

Thanx 4 The Fish · 10-10-2003 10:05am

Jacques, Porn is entitled to his opinion same as everybody else is, no matter how far wrong he is and how many times his point is disproven. You cannot go around calling people **** here though.

Jacques Buffon · 10-10-2003 10:26am

fair enough, point taken.

The Brigadier · 10-10-2003 10:32am

wanker

Why is Wanker not hit by the swear filter but T B H is??

Thanx 4 The Fish · 10-10-2003 10:38am

TBH I have absolutely no idea. so any chance we could get back on topic here anytime soon.

JackD · 10-10-2003 11:05am

Its disgraceful the way people have ganged up on Pornapster. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is what he said was correct and no matter how loudly people shout him down it does not alter history.

p.pete · 10-10-2003 11:15am

Give it a rest JackD.

marct · 10-10-2003 12:19pm

Originally posted by JackD
Its disgraceful the way people have ganged up on Pornapster. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is what he said was correct and no matter how loudly people shout him down it does not alter history.

:rolleyes: YHBT! Nice try newbie but no dice...

Big Chief · 10-10-2003 12:29pm

I havent got a bad word to say about them apart from all the conspiracy theories. They are loyal, and most of them are around from the late 80's early 90's.

ok dont know if it was commented on as i only read a couple of pages so far but felt the need to say.

The 'real' arsenal fans despise alot of the arsenal season ticket holders, if you notice there isnt always alot of 'atmosphere' at highbury. This being because a good majority of big business type people buy the season tickets, not because they are die hard arsenal fans, but because they like to go into work on the monday and say 'oh yeh i have a season ticket, i was at the match'.

I did not know this first hand till i met a couple of die hard arsenal fans who pleaded this, that so many of the real fans cant get tickets because of these folk aswell. It was only when they pointed out about the ground being so quiet that i thought to myself after i watched a arsenal game at highbury - "heh those guys were right afterall"

Apparently this is quite well known in england, although i was not aware of it until i was told not that long ago.

The Muppet · 10-10-2003 1:03pm

The 'real' arsenal fans despise alot of the arsenal season ticket holders, ...................

Had never heard that but its good to hear that UTD are not alone in attracting the "Prawn Sandwich Brigade".

BTW Is it only the successful teams that attract them or do they have them Anfield and the likes .;)

Hey Its Friday.:D

Thanx 4 The Fish · 10-10-2003 2:09pm

Anfield, home of the team the most succesful team in English football !!

Would imagine that they probably do.

p.pete · 10-10-2003 2:45pm

Traditionaly the real fans go to the Kop, the more passive would sit in the main stand and I've never been in the centenary stands but I'd imagine they're fairly sedate also.

Also the real fans will be found in the other three stands when they get past a certain age and cramming into the Kop was in their hey day. Obviously that isn't as important now either, due to the seats...

United - Living with Shame

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