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Who voted for Fianna Fáil?
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I didn't vote for FF. I didn't vote for FG either. I was asked why by a friend who is associated with FG. I told him that when the fix things and start being original as opposed to watered down versions of everyone elses blab, my faith may be restored. At present I'd have more luck getting a Ski-holiday in Hell. Best get my ski gear ready then.....0
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what about people who never ever voted fianna fail- i had a friend who believed for years that fianna fail were corrupt.
he took this to such extremes that we thought he was paranoid.
he turned out to be correct
however i have never voted for fianna fail, i am wondering why i waste my vote on opposition parties who seem determinded to stay in opposition.
people voted fianna fail in the last election in the full knowledge that their election promises could not be kept and in the full knowledge that the opposition could not deliver.
remember they voted out the opposition.0 -
Originally posted by Sparks
To be fair cork, you'd have to point out that the reduction in taxation was made possible by external events that had nothing to do with the FF government that happened to be lucky enough to be there at the time. And to be fair, you'd have to point out that the high taxation of the 1980s era can be attributed in large part to the actions of the FF government at the time and their economic policies. Mind you, given that they have a record of not checking the qualifications of their minister of finance, it's not surprising...
No, major reductions in taxation came under the FF/PD government. The FG/Lab government of 1982-1987 had little control over public expenditure. This lead to an increase in the national debt from £12 to £24 billion.
Rates should never been axed in 1977. They should be introduced again. Services will have to be paid for. With low taxation - people will have to accept services will have to be paid for.
Unemployment in Ireland is one of the lowest in the EU, so too are personal taxation rates.
The ceasefire was in shambles prior to the last FF/PD government.
Yet, people find it hard to acknowlege achievements .
This country still has problems. Solutions for problems in health need solving. This will be done changing structures. What solutions does our opposition have.
The leaders of the oppsition are within FF. Rabbitt & Kenny ought really to focus on policy. Joe Higgins (Rubbish tags) and Jackie Healy Rae seem to be outproforming them.0 -
No, major reductions in taxation came under the FF/PD government.
To be fair cork, you'd have to point out that the reduction in taxation was made possible by external events that had nothing to do with the FF government that happened to be lucky enough to be there at the time.The FG/Lab government of 1982-1987 had little control over public expenditure. This lead to an increase in the national debt from £12 to £24 billion.Rates should never been axed in 1977. They should be introduced again. Services will have to be paid for. With low taxation - people will have to accept services will have to be paid for.
I've seen them go to jail rather than pay for something twice, but that's another story and another thread.Yet, people find it hard to acknowlege achievements .What solutions does our opposition have.
And to answer the question, whether or not someone else has a solution is not a valid reason to return FF to power.Rabbitt & Kenny ought really to focus on policy.Joe Higgins (Rubbish tags) and Jackie Healy Rae seem to be outproforming them.
Wow, you're hitting the hard stuff tonight Cork, if you think JHR is making any impact outside of Kerry. And he's doing that at a price - the lion's share of civil contracts in Kerry went to, shock-and-horror, his son...0 -
I think, to be fair that our national politicians are more locally orientated because local government has so little relevance, most TDs until recently held local authority seats and the fact that we have so many national politicians per head of population means they are more accessible for local issues.
I didn't vote for Fianna Fáil. I see them as being Short sighted and self serving. However there are Fianna Fáil politicians that are above that. Noel Dempsey, Brian Lenihan and possibly Brian Cowen and Seamus Brennan have shown the ability to rise above the short term goal and push for something they believe in.Michael Martin has made moves to reform the health system.
CorkBollocks he has.
Sparks
but he has done nothing. It will take a different minister and probably a different government to actually get something done to fundamentally reform the Health services.Whilst the opposition were aganist the partial imposition of third level fees to those earning over€100,000.
Cork
As i recall it was noel dempsey's colleagues in both Fianna Fáil and the PDs that shot that one down.To be fair, taxation has come down. It makes a change from high taxation & high spend governments. People don't want to payer higher tax.
Cork
The previous government raised spending by 27% in the five months before the last general election. The rest of the year spending grew by 1%. They were very selective in their high spending ways but they did high spend. Where is the budget surplus gone???
Last year saw a big jump in stealth taxes, the government fueled just under two percent of the inflation rate. In effect a lot worse than a two percent rise in both income tax bands for the PAYE worker. Low tax my posterior!0 -
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Originally posted by star gazer
Last year saw a big jump in stealth taxes, the government fueled just under two percent of the inflation rate. In effect a lot worse than a two percent rise in both income tax bands for the PAYE worker. Low tax my posterior!
It was state companies like CIE,ESB, AN Post, VHI & RTE who applied are were sanctioned increases.
What we need is to have competition and let companies like CIE sink or swim.
Competition has improved Aer Lingus. Thanks to Michael O Leary.
Seamus Brennan urgently needs to liberalise the transport market in this country. These slelth taxes largely came from simi state companies.
I think many of these should be privatised. What purpose does 2fm serve?
This government has delivered on tax reform and even with the slow down in the economy - the jobless situation is much worse across the EU.0 -
Originally posted by Cork
It was state companies like CIE,ESB, AN Post, VHI & RTE who applied are were sanctioned increases.
What we need is to have competition and let companies like CIE sink or swim.
Yes, wonderful idea. Let's take one of the smallest markets in the EU, then ask private companies to come into Ireland, expend billions of euros on capital investment into infrastructure, and then try to run a competitive company on an income that ought to pay off the investment in fifty years assuming 100% of market share and no slump in the economy.
Yeah, that'll work.
And as Maggie Thatcher showed, privitisation just works so well :rolleyes:Competition has improved Aer Lingus. Thanks to Michael O Leary.Seamus Brennan urgently needs to liberalise the transport market in this country. These slelth taxes largely came from simi state companies.Bollocks.
Stealth taxes like VAT and illegal ones like VRT have nothing to do with semi-state bodies and everything to do with the government.I think many of these should be privatised. What purpose does 2fm serve?This government has delivered on tax reform
Pity VAT and other indirect taxes rose so far though, but hey - indirect taxation has such a wider net, because everyone has to pay VAT, from middle-class families to OAPs living on borderline pensions while waiting to die on hospital waiting lists.
And that's not even mentioning illegal taxes like VRT.and even with the slow down in the economy - the jobless situation is much worse across the EU.
Hmph.
You know, if we were able to set out an honest independent history of Fianna Fail's record in government compared to what the correct decisions were, including what personal gains FF TDs got from their decisions and what ignored consultants advised at the time, the problem wouldn't be re-electing FF, it'd be keeping them out of jail.0 -
Originally posted by Sparks
Let's take one of the smallest markets in the EU, then ask private companies to come into Ireland, expend billions of euros on capital investment into infrastructure, and then try to run a competitive company on an income that ought to pay off the investment in fifty years assuming 100% of market share and no slump in the economy.
Well, the luas fiasco in Dublin shows in Dublin - Public private partnership is the way to build schools, prisons, roads, bridges & hospitals.
The government should absolutely ignore the media and engage in complete reform of public services in this country.Pity VAT and other indirect taxes rose so far though, but hey - indirect taxation has such a wider net, because everyone has to pay VAT, from middle-class families to OAPs living on borderline pensions while waiting to die on hospital waiting lists.
Well, Who will forget the meagre increases the OAPs got under the raindow government by a socialist mimister for social welfare?
This government has significantly increased the OAP pension.
Hospital Waiting Lists were there for years. The FF/PD government has increased health spending. But what we need is health system reform.
The health Boards are on the way out. Some hospitals will be down graded or shut - while others will be centres of excellence.
TDs will indeed come under much local pressure.personal gains FF TDs got from their decisions and what ignored consultants advised at the time,
Could you name a party with no bad apples? Any TD ex or otherwise - they are laws.
Overall - this government has not increased taxes on work & it has done well on NI policy. We had a guy from Fine Gael who refererred to the peace process as the "f****** Peace Process". There is a global economic slowdown & this country is not doing as badly as many other countrys.
I think people miss the "Celtic Tiger" - but our ecomony is not proforming too badly despite international factors.0 -
Originally posted by Cork
Well, the luas fiasco in Dublin shows in Dublin - Public private partnership is the way to build schools, prisons, roads, bridges & hospitals.The government should absolutely ignore the media and engage in complete reform of public services in this country.
As it did with the few good ideas that it introduced, like the FOI act?
Hmph. I wouldn't trust this government to pay their taxes Cork, why would we trust them to completely reform every public service without real oversight and accountability, after the mess they made of Eircom?Well, Who will forget the meagre increases the OAPs got under the raindow government by a socialist mimister for social welfare?This government has significantly increased the OAP pension.Hospital Waiting Lists were there for years.The FF/PD government has increased health spending. But what we need is health system reform.The health Boards are on the way out. Some hospitals will be down graded or shut - while others will be centres of excellence.
Are you out of your mind, or just trying to reduce pressure on the Pension fund by killing off people being paid out of it?
And "centres of excellence"? Don't make me laugh.TDs will indeed come under much local pressure.Could you name a party with no bad apples?
Nice to know you read my posts though :rolleyes:Any TD ex or otherwise - they are laws.Overall - this government has not increased taxes on work& it has done well on NI policy.
I'd say that it's not looking good Cork, but something occours to me - why is the leader of the country spending so much time working on the problems of a foreign country while our problems just go unsolved???
It's not that NI has no merit, lives saved are lives saved, but I have to wonder when he spends less time in the Dail in a week than I do in traffic in a day, especially for the money he earns and the priviledges he enjoys.We had a guy from Fine Gael who refererred to the peace process as the "f****** Peace Process".
I'll take the twat that gets annoyed at the disproportionate expenditure of resources on a foreign country over the one that will run you down and then bugger off without calling for an ambulance. Any day of the week and twice on sundays.There is a global economic slowdown & this country is not doing as badly as many other countrys.I think people miss the "Celtic Tiger" - but our ecomony is not proforming too badly despite international factors.
And given the disgraceful mess that FF have left the nation's economy, infrastructure and education system in, we can't get those companies back for at least a decade.0 -
Originally posted by Sparks
And given the disgraceful mess that FF have left the nation's economy, infrastructure and education system in, we can't get those companies back for at least a decade.
People of this country pay low personal direct tax. The umployment rate is low by internatioanal standards & our education system is also recognised as pretty good internationally.
Now about tax dodging. Many more were engaged in this. Look the Dirt enquiry? Look at state banks??
Health is being reformed and hard choices will have to be made in this area.
But, look at the alternative policys of the Labour & Fine Gael Partys? The facts are people have low personal tax and unemployment is low by international standards.
Our economy is preforming better than most in the EU. Credit where Credit is due. Bertie & Mary are not doing too badly.0 -
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Originally posted by Cork
People of this country pay low personal direct tax.The umployment rate is low by internatioanal standards & our education system is also recognised as pretty good internationally.Now about tax dodging. Many more were engaged in this. Look the Dirt enquiry? Look at state banks??
If two people commit a crime, you charge them with it.
If three people commit a crime, you charge them with it.
If four people commit a crime, you charge them with it.
If five people commit a crime, you charge them with it.
...
If N people commit a crime, you charge them with it.
Get the idea Cork? If not, here it is again:
"Everyone else is doing it" is not a valid defence for an illegal act.Health is being reformed and hard choices will have to be made in this area.But, look at the alternative policys of the Labour & Fine Gael Partys?
I refuse point-blank to compare FF to anyone else Cork. You either stand or fall on your own merits. "We're better than the other lot" is not a valid reason to elect you.The facts are people have low personal tax and unemployment is low by international standards.Our economy is preforming better than most in the EU.Credit where Credit is due. Bertie & Mary are not doing too badly.0 -
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Charlie McCreevy transformed the taxation system. He knocked many points of both tax rates. He introduced SSIAs to encourage people to save. He encouraged people to provide for pensions thru PRSAs.
FF/PDs put money back into peoples pockets. Unemployment is one of the lowest in the EU. FACT.overall tax, most of which is unfairly distributed,
Most of which is going into education, health & social welfare.
Where would you like to see money being distributed?
I personally think Cork could do with an enrtertainment venue like the Obessey Areana in Belfast.0 -
Originally posted by Cork
Charlie McCreevy transformed the taxation system. He knocked many points of both tax rates.He introduced SSIAs to encourage people to save.He encouraged people to provide for pensions thru PRSAs.
C'mon cork, credit where it's due - it takes skill to lose 10% of a multi-billion-euro fund, while leaving almost a full quarter sitting about uninvested, not even in a bank account earning interest.FF/PDs put money back into peoples pockets.Unemployment is one of the lowest in the EU. FACT.Most of which is going into education, health & social welfare.Where would you like to see money being distributed?I personally think Cork could do with an enrtertainment venue like the Obessey Areana in Belfast.
But hey, what would I know, I've only got a brain in my head...0 -
Originally posted by Sparks
Only time FF/PDs put money in people's pockets is when they already have their hand in the pocket to take out the money before it hits your wallet!
How you spend money is your business. There is nobody forcing you to drink or smoke. There is no vat on food and clildrens clothes.
We as taxpayers to need better value for money in public services. I agree with you on that.And I personally think we could use a radiotherapy unit a bit more.
3 are planned - I think. And hopefully more will come.
I know the cost of living has risen aldough inflation is thankfully falling.
This government has invested in infrastructure. I was on the Watergrasshill bypass yesterday. I know there are things to be done but - in an economic downturm - our economy is still proforming steadily.0 -
Originally posted by Cork
How you spend money is your business.There is nobody forcing you to drink or smoke. There is no vat on food and clildrens clothes.We as taxpayers to need better value for money in public services. I agree with you on that.3 are planned - I think. And hopefully more will come.
Bricks and mortar - then I'll be impressed. After six years and billions of euro, we shouldn't be seeing people dying on waiting lists or kids in rat-infested schools.I know the cost of living has risen aldough inflation is thankfully falling.This government has invested in infrastructure.in an economic downturm - our economy is still proforming steadily.0 -
Originally posted by Sparks
Indeed it is - it's steadily getting worse.
Our economy is getting worse. I was lucky to find a job 5 weeks ago. But economies accross the world are far worse. I know people in the US & OZ that find it hard to get a job in a Burger Joint.
We deserve a world class health system. I just lost a friend thru cancer. But changes need to take place. Michael Martin has to reform the system. Money will not solve it. I think Centres of Excellence is the way to go.
Small local General Hospitals are fine if you break your leg but Anythinhg more serious I'd prefer to go to a hospital were there would be expertise and follow thru care.
The same probably goes for schools. In my area - some schools cannot get pupils. I think that one + two teaher schools could be amalgamated with bigger ones (if possible).0 -
Originally posted by Cork
Our economy is getting worse. I was lucky to find a job 5 weeks ago. But economies accross the world are far worse. I know people in the US & OZ that find it hard to get a job in a Burger Joint.We deserve a world class health system. I just lost a friend thru cancer. But changes need to take place. Michael Martin has to reform the system. Money will not solve it. I think Centres of Excellence is the way to go.
Why centers of excellence? What about that phrase (which by the way, is rather meaningless) makes you think it will work? Specifically, cork.Small local General Hospitals are fine if you break your leg but Anythinhg more serious I'd prefer to go to a hospital were there would be expertise and follow thru care.
That is the reality of your "centers of excellence" idea Cork.The same probably goes for schools. In my area - some schools cannot get pupils. I think that one + two teaher schools could be amalgamated with bigger ones (if possible).
Cork, I get the distinct impression that you've never had to live with the consequences of the policies you're advocating.0 -
Originally posted by Sparks
That is the reality of your "centers of excellence" idea Cork.
B]
No, world class centres with up to date knowledge of conditions and follow up care.
You will not get this in small general hospitals. Ecomically, it is not possible to have top of the range equipment in every hospital. Choices will have to be made.
Michael Martin is a better minister for health than Brian Cowan or Michael Noonan,
Reform is on the agenda. There are timetables for implementation.
I know this should have happened years ago. But it is not beyond this government to make improvements on health.0 -
Originally posted by Cork
No, world class centres with up to date knowledge of conditions and follow up care.You will not get this in small general hospitals. Ecomically, it is not possible to have top of the range equipment in every hospital. Choices will have to be made.
And they can't do it in a helo, because we don't have an air ambulance.Michael Martin is a better minister for health than Brian Cowan or Michael Noonan,Reform is on the agenda. There are timetables for implementation.I know this should have happened years ago. But it is not beyond this government to make improvements on health.0 -
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Valu for money is needed in any system. This shold be achieved across all public services.
We need an efficent system that delivers.
( billion is going into health - we deserve better from this type of expenditure.0 -
/off topic but it has to be said, this thread has given me a right laugh this evening!Thanks Cork and Sparks, We should ask Bonkey or Dev to have it continue over in the debating chamber and get it judged!
mm0 -
Well the score so far on the Gandalfmetre is
Sparks 10,000,000
Cork Null Points
Now get back on topic about who voted for FF and why. If you lads want me to split off the health bits so we can continue this wide and varied discussion in separate thread then let the mods know.
Gandalf.0 -
Originally posted by Cork
Valu for money is needed in any system. This shold be achieved across all public services.
We need an efficent system that delivers.
( billion is going into health - we deserve better from this type of expenditure.
Those are wonderful platitudes Cork, but that's the signature of FF - lovely words, but the actions show a wholly different agenda - mismanagement of funds, inaction on badly needed measures, corruption and bribery, and at the end of the day the problems haven't been solved - they've gotten worse.Originally posted by Man
/off topic but it has to be said, this thread has given me a right laugh this evening!Thanks Cork and Sparks, We should ask Bonkey or Dev to have it continue over in the debating chamber and get it judged!0 -
Originally posted by gandalf
Well the score so far on the Gandalfmetre is
Sparks 10,000,000
Cork Null PointsNow get back on topic about who voted for FF and why. If you lads want me to split off the health bits so we can continue this wide and varied discussion in separate thread then let the mods know.
Gandalf.0 -
I'd have thought an electable alternative to an FF/PD coalition would be needed and it's not there at present.
Others may like to see Enda Kenny as Taoiseach, I certainly wouldn't.
So who could conceivably form an alternative??
I hear that time and time again, people not being angry enough to vote for the devil they don't know coupled with being presented with the likes of Enda Kenny { please note that I'm sure he is a very friendly person, I am just remarking on his presentation, something I regret to say a miracle couldn't fix and only a replacement would }.
The problem as I see it with Fine Gael is their lack of togetherness, as was clearly evidenced in a recent TV documentary about them.
Without it they have no hope,and certainly no hope of electing a credible leader who can do their ideas justice.
mm0 -
I didn't vote for FF. I didn't vote for the PDs either. Because I'm not an idiot (note: I'm not implying that anyone who did is an idiot (just suffering from temporary insanity:)))
GF voted for the PDs for two reasons: she liked Mary Harney (note use of past tense) and thought that some kind of a brake on FF (given that my neighbour's cat knew that they were going to get an overall majority)might be a good thing. These days I gather she'll never vote for either of them again until hell freezes over or they get a clue (whichever comes first, I'm taking bets).0 -
I believe Everyone SHOULD VOTE.
People died to give you the right to vote. Its your duty to use it.
The poeple i have the most respect for are the ones who vote differently everytime they vote. They are the ones trying to make a better decision than they did last time.
The muppets who voted for the same party all the time are useless sheep as far as i'm concerned and should not be involved in selecting the government.
I would have much more respect for someone who voted FF last election and then decided to vote differently this time than a sheep who voted against FF last time and for ever before that.
What the people need are serious contenders and not the politicians who that are around now who have been their or their fathers before them since the dark ages.
Boot these guys and vote for some new honest hard working blood (as long as they come up to be counted
).0 -
Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
The poeple i have the most respect for are the ones who vote differently everytime they vote.0 -
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well said sceptre.
Thats exactly what i meant.
Sorry for the confusion.0
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