Who voted for Fianna Fáil?

Sparks

Originally posted by Man
I'd have thought an electable alternative to an FF/PD coalition would be needed and it's not there at present.

Is that a reason to elect the current bunch of crooks?
I think not...
It does however, strike me as a reason to change the system to solve the problem.

Others may like to see Enda Kenny as Taoiseach, I certainly wouldn't.

No, I am rather put off by the idea of a guy who'll tell "****** jokes" in public speechs being our representative - one Berlusconi in the EU is sufficent, I believe.

So who could conceivably form an alternative??

Hold up.
Every time there's an election, this question comes up - FF are a bunch of crooks, but who else is there?
Thing is, to me that screams one thing - not that we need an alternative party, but that we need an alternative system of government. One that doesn't make the choice of party so damn critical and permanent.

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
I believe Everyone SHOULD VOTE.

So do I - but then I believe that you shouldn't be forced to make an undemocratic choice in the polling booth. By which I mean the lack of an option to say "none of these are acceptable to me", which is a fundamental principle of democracy as we know it.

People died to give you the right to vote. Its your duty to use it.

No, they died so you'd have the right to vote, not the duty to vote. Having the right is very different to having the duty to vote - people had the duty in stalinist russia and Ba'athist Iraq, it didn't exactly mean they had a good form of government!

What the people need are serious contenders and not the politicians who that are around now who have been their or their fathers before them since the dark ages.

This is rather down the road we're on in the "elect the youngest ever MEP" thread...

star gazer

No, they died so you'd have the right to vote, not the duty to vote. Having the right is very different to having the duty to vote - people had the duty in stalinist russia and Ba'athist Iraq, it didn't exactly mean they had a good form of government!
Sparks

There are democracies in Europe where it is compulsory to vote so it's a little simplistic to only associate duty to vote with stalinist russia or saddam's iraq.

The system as we have it should make the voting point mute because there shouldn't be such a barrier to voting. But it is Fianna Fáil who do best when there is a lower turnout. Democracy is only working when people participate, people can have the right to not vote but if it's not a statement or unavoidable in itself, it reflects badly on our democracy. Fianna Fáil had better bring integrity back into their ranks if they aren't to lose a whole generation of voters for good.

Cork

Democracy is safe & well. I was emailed a friend who is standing in next years council elections.

Turnout accross developed nations is falling. I surpose, this has alot to do with policy.

What distinct policies do FG or Labour have?

Our monetary policy is dictated by the ECB. Our fiscal policy is dictated by the electorate.

We don't want to pay high personal direct taxes.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Democracy is safe & well. I was emailed a friend who is standing in next years council elections.

We call that anecdotal evidence Cork, meaning that it has no real weight.

Turnout accross developed nations is falling. I surpose, this has alot to do with policy.

If by policy, you mean disenfrachisment and corruption, then yes.

What distinct policies do FG or Labour have?

About as many as FF have I suspect.

Our monetary policy is dictated by the ECB. Our fiscal policy is dictated by the electorate.
We don't want to pay high personal direct taxes.

Actually cork, I'll take high personal direct tax and non-existant indirect tax over low direct tax and high indirect tax (and high illegal tax) every day of the week and twice on sundays.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks



Actually cork, I'll take high personal direct tax and non-existant indirect tax over low direct tax and high indirect tax (and high illegal tax) every day of the week and twice on sundays.

When had we ever non-existant indirect tax?

Prior to the FF/PD government the tax on labour was much higher. Charlie McCreevy slashed both rates - so people are rewarded for their toil.

You are perfectly entitled to have an openion on tax policy. But high personal taxation is a disincentive to work & it encourages people to enter the black economy.

gollem_1975

I voted FF as I know (and liked) one of the candidates in the (urban)area I live in .
also I think that FF branding as being 'the government party' has also helped in my decision to vote.
I currently view the main opposition as being 'the Media' .
are things in the country really that bad in comparison to what they were like in the 80's.
I don't expect the opposition to give the government credit for anything however the media don't ever seem to announce anything good thats happening in the country.

I credit the FF/PD government with putting more money in my pocket due to lower PAYE.

the media/opposition are also saying that FF duped the people into believing things were all right at the time of the last general election ( I am not saying that things are rosy but I don't think we are performing badly in comparison to our european neighbours in terms of employment and economic growth btw. ) how come the media and the opposition could not tell the public how bad things were and how much better things would be under an alternative.
they do need the media and the opposition to highlight their shortcomings and keep them on their toes.

I think FF and PD are probably the best possible government given the current alternatives as they are capable of forming a strong government that will last the 5 year term.


I think a coalition of the other parties would not be a happy marriage and would not see the term through.
I don't think I would vote for an independent either , unless I knew them , as they only way they can have any major influence is if they control the balance of power .

Originally posted by Sparks
I
Hold up.
Every time there's an election, this question comes up - FF are a bunch of crooks, but who else is there?
Thing is, to me that screams one thing - not that we need an alternative party, but that we need an alternative system of government. One that doesn't make the choice of party so damn critical and permanent.

I'm with you some of the the way there Sparks, I'm just a little wavy on the idea of limiting who can stand as discussed to death before ....
you see anyone can stand as it is, and the people choose to vote for who they vote for.
You can try Convincing them to vote for somebody else or for a new system entirely, but don't hold your breath...

mm

gandalf

I like the idea where you vote for a party and its ideals. They get a number of seats based on their percentage of the vote and then they choose who takes the seats.

It would remove the dreaded parish pump politics crap that is hobbling this country with idiots who sort out the local GAA team with changing rooms instead of sorting out the bigger picture issues.

Gandalf.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
When had we ever non-existant indirect tax?

Never, because if we didn't have your shower of incompetent crooks running the government, we had the other shower trying to fix their mistakes.

Prior to the FF/PD government the tax on labour was much higher. Charlie McCreevy slashed both rates - so people are rewarded for their toil.

Bollocks he did.
That, cork, is an outright lie.

You are perfectly entitled to have an openion on tax policy. But high personal taxation is a disincentive to work & it encourages people to enter the black economy

No it isn't and no it doesn't - so long as the rest of the economy isn't so incredibly screwed up by the government (as FF have done) so that the cost of living is through the roof, noone can afford housing without paying out 60% or more of your net income on a morgage while waiting for the "adjustment" in the house market, and we're not being charged illegal taxes.

Sparks

Originally posted by gollem_1975
I credit the FF/PD government with putting more money in my pocket due to lower PAYE.

So hang on - you credit them for a global economic boom, and at the same time fail to damn them for taking more money out of your pocket in tax and letting the economy overheat so that the cost of living goes through the roof?

the media/opposition are also saying that FF duped the people into believing things were all right at the time of the last general election ( I am not saying that things are rosy but I don't think we are performing badly in comparison to our european neighbours in terms of employment and economic growth btw. ) how come the media and the opposition could not tell the public how bad things were and how much better things would be under an alternative.

Because FF lied outright regarding the offical figures in the economy to which they alone had access, so that the few voices saying that real trouble was coming up sounded like unoffical punters because the "real, offical" figures were so different.

I think FF and PD are probably the best possible government given the current alternatives as they are capable of forming a strong government that will last the 5 year term.

Bollocks. Vote for me for dictator-for-life and I promise to give you strong government out the ass. It won't be good government of course, but it'll be strong government.
:rolleyes:
Sheep.

I'm with you some of the the way there Sparks, I'm just a little wavy on the idea of limiting who can stand as discussed to death before ....

Well, as we did discuss earlier, the idea there wasn't that you couldn't stand as a TD without qualifications, but that you couldn't run for ministerial posts without qualifications. So you could still do the system we have now for picking TDs.
Wouldn't be a good idea, mind, but then the political system finds "good ideas" to be anathema...

you see anyone can stand as it is, and the people choose to vote for who they vote for.

Now that needs to be changed. Go on, let anyone stand - but let the people vote for one of them or none of the above.
Now that would be a shake-up...

Imposter

Originally posted by gandalf
I like the idea where you vote for a party and its ideals. They get a number of seats based on their percentage of the vote and then they choose who takes the seats.

It's a nice idea in principle but imagine FF getting to select their XX TD's. They'd be no mention of favours or brown envelopes or anything! I couldn't imagine any of the existing parties putting forward a balanced government (one where every minister knows their job).

Also FG have been slated here so is Labour an alternative? Why or why not?

bonkey

Originally posted by star gazer
There are democracies in Europe where it is compulsory to vote so it's a little simplistic to only associate duty to vote with stalinist russia or saddam's iraq.

Can you name these countries? I wasn't aware of any...

jc

RainyDay

Originally posted by bonkey
Can you name these countries? I wasn't aware of any...

jc

Australia, if my memory serves me correctly.

bonkey

Originally posted by RainyDay
Australia, if my memory serves me correctly.

It doesnt...not unless Australia has become a European nation since I last checked

jc

star gazer

Can you name these countries? I wasn't aware of any...

bonkey

Belgium has it in the broad sense, ie it's reasonably enforced and for main elections. Apparently Luxembourg, Greece Italy, Austria and Switzerland have all varying degrees of compulsory voting but mostly weak enforcement and for regional elections.

http://www.idea.int/vt/analysis/Compulsory_Voting.cfm

I don't expect the opposition to give the government credit for anything however the media don't ever seem to announce anything good thats happening in the country.
gollum_1975

There was a time before the last election where the government couldn't do any wrong (ie. before the last election). There were danger signs that the government weren't being 100% honest but when the opposition tried to say anything there was another anouncement of gifts from government which the media were only too happy to report on. The only coverage the opposition got was to pinpoint and highlight their mistakes. It looks like the shoe is on the other foot now.

PH01

Originally posted by tomcosgrave
I'm amazed that people still vote for Fianna Fᩬ after all the scandal and messing around over the past couple of decades.

And in the past couple of weeks I've been wondering what people who voted for them in the last election were thinking when they voted for them.

Do they regret doing so now?

If they do regret it, what are the reasons?
And again, if they don't, what are the reasons?

Not trying to be combative, but I'm just curious as to why people voted for them.

If you did vote for them, and are reading this, maybe you could answer? Annonymously, if you wish.

Cheers,
Tom

Still vote for them - always have and always will. Well I have to really less the country would then really go to pieces under some other crowd

But seriously, it's a good question to ask. And as a card carrying member I'd have to say I'm surprised on one level that we got back into power in the last election.
But on another level, I'm not surprised. And I won't be surprised if we're still in power after the next election in 2007. For who else will the 'establishment' vote for? Or what alternative government would people vote for? Now, that is the question.

People will continue to vote for FF until there is a credible alternative government available. If there is a prospect of this happening, FF days in power are over.

bonkey

Originally posted by star gazer
Belgium has it in the broad sense, ie it's reasonably enforced and for main elections.

How is something comulsary "reasonably enforced"??? If its compulsary, then you vote or you get punished for breaking the law. Its not like speeding where you may or may not be caught....there is a register, there is a record of who voted.

I can't see "reasonable enforcement" coming into it. Either you have to vote, or you don't.

Or do you mean "reasonable" in terms of "the punishment is not excessive" ????

Apparently Luxembourg, Greece Italy, Austria and Switzerland have all varying degrees of compulsory voting but mostly weak enforcement and for regional elections.

http://www.idea.int/vt/analysis/Compulsory_Voting.cfm

Again...I can't see how you can have a "varying degree" of something which is compulsary, but wow...I didn't realise there were that many nations.

I wasn't aware of anything in the Swiss system being mandatory/compulsary. Must check that out.

Your link appears busted by the way...at least for me.

jc

gollem_1975

So hang on - you credit them for a global economic boom, and at the same time fail to damn them for taking more money out of your pocket in tax and letting the economy overheat so that the cost of living goes through the roof?

I don't credit them for a global economic boom.
however I do 'associate' the recent good times with FF being in government.
I have more money in my pocket as a result of lower income tax and that is a fact. I credit them with lowering this income tax.
I have worked hard over the last few years and
I like the idea that I can do more of what I want to do with the money I work hard to earn.

Sparks

Originally posted by gollem_1975
I don't credit them for a global economic boom.
however I do 'associate' the recent good times with FF being in government.

How do you do that, when the only reason we've had "good times" has been the global economic boom that you don't credit them with?

I have more money in my pocket as a result of lower income tax and that is a fact. I credit them with lowering this income tax.

Do you also credit them with the rise in the cost of living, high indirect tax, and a property market whose inflation is beyond belief?

I have worked hard over the last few years and
I like the idea that I can do more of what I want to do with the money I work hard to earn.

You're not the only one who's worked hard - some of us though are rather pissed at the idea that we may never be able to own our own homes in this country, or that despite earning figures an order or three of magnitude greater than our parents, the cost of living saps more of our income proportionately than it did of theirs...

star gazer

This one should work i don't know why the other one stopped working

http://www.idea.int/voter_turnout/Compulsory_Voting.htm

How is something comulsary "reasonably enforced"???
bonkey

Think about it, Belgium has a ninety percent turnout which is very impressive by any standards. Do you put the 10% who don't vote in jail? It usually comes in terms of fines and after missing four elections it gets to be a blot on a record of someone looking for a civil service job. Reasonable in terms of democracy, you have a vote but it's noit a police state that intrudes into every corner of the country, which it would need to go after people to jail them. A small fine is a punishment to fit the crime.

gollem_1975

Do you also credit them with the rise in the cost of living, high indirect tax, and a property market whose inflation is beyond belief?

-- this is in response to post from Sparks

I don't 'credit' them with higher cost of living and property market
property market whose inflation is beyond belief?

I think that we have always had a high cost of living in relation to the rest of the OECD countries . this is somewhat due to lack of competition, being an island ( imports more expensive to transport ) , also I think there was a lack of restraint in terms of services providers increasing their prices over the last few years and many.

in terms of being able to buy a house , would we be in a better position to buy our houses if we were all on the dole or saving the money up to emigrate like we did in the 70's, 80's
I am not on the property ladder myself but perhaps me and you are actually in a minority. I have a roof over my head at the moment so I am happy enough ( would be nice to have my own little bachelor pad though ).
of course I would love to have a house without having to work for the rest of my life .. but if I had bought one in 1975 , guess wI would still have to spend the rest of my life working to pay off the mortgage.

I believe that reduction of income tax encouraged an increase in the numbers at work that may have been stifled somewhat by keeping taxes at the levels they had been at in the early 90's.

what I can gather from what I have read from your ( sparks )posts you do seem to be passionately interested in Politics and seem not to be the biggest fan of FF.
Is there anyone you can recommend me to vote for in the next election ?

as for

You're not the only one who's worked hard - some of us though are rather pissed at the idea that we may never be able to own our own homes in this country, or that despite earning figures an order or three of magnitude greater than our parents, the cost of living saps more of our income proportionately than it did of theirs...

are you saying that despite increases in salary and essentially an increase in the number of goods and services that we can purchase with our salaries that we are worse off than the previous generation in terms of purchasing parity . I must ask my parents.
as for working hard ... I know I am not the only person who worked hard . however I am happier with the current rate of tax now then when I started work.

maybe if anything there is grounds for setting up a party that represents the 18 - 30 age group ...

I assume that is the agegroup of the people on boards .
does anyone think it would be a runner ??