Bin charge protests and breastfeeding

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Irish people paid 36% standard rate tax during the 1980's.
We are paying nearly half of that now - as personal allowances have also been increased.
The paying twice thing used in the courts?
It would make more sense than other metods of protest?

Cork, I'll answer that when you manage to post a coherent post.

Cork

I'm guessing that the Swiss are less greedy and short-sighted than the bin protesters.

Well - lets leave due process deal with them.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
It is now that the local environment bill has been railroaded through the Dail and Seanad.

So how come I saw a bunch of protestors outside City Hall a few days ago, with the police standing by doing nothing? Surely if protesting is now illegal, the police would have arrested them?

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Has Joe Higgins any policy on strategic management of the waste problem or any of the other political groupings who are involved in these protests?
Has anybody a list of these groups?

That's got nothing to do with the topic at hand cork. We're not talking about waste disposal policies here, we're talking about funding. Get your argument together on the funding aspect and then post, okay?

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Over 50% of waste is collected by private firms.
What is the waste management stratergy of these protesters?

That's nothing to do with the topic at hand.

People outside Dublin have paid waste charges for years.

That's false - people all over the country were protesting the bin tax two years ago, and it was a cork counciller that took the government to the supreme court and won.

Local authories have power to introduce charges for any of its services.

Under what act cork?

In a perfect world - people would take responsibility for their refuse.
Burying it in a hole is no solution. Times have moved on to reduce, recycling and re-use.
Could somebody tell these protestors this?

No need to cork - firstly, they know it, and secondly, it's got nothing to do with waste disposal policies.

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
So how come I saw a bunch of protestors outside City Hall a few days ago, with the police standing by doing nothing? Surely if protesting is now illegal, the police would have arrested them?

Protesting outside the dail isn't illegal. Protesting effectively has been made illegal. As cork has shown, and as a quick read of the "debates" in the dail will show, the government has no problem with ineffective protests, they just turn off their ears and spout irrelevant platitudes on things that are totally off topic but sound related to the topic. Basic Spin 101.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Well - lets leave due process deal with them.

We did that 2 years ago and they won. Then FF changed the law to get their own way.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
No need to cork - firstly, they know it, and secondly, it's got nothing to do with waste disposal policies.

Recycling has nothing to do with waste disposal policies?

Protesting outside the dail isn't illegal. Protesting effectively has been made illegal.

So by "effective" protesting you mean what exactly? Blocking roads, denying other people services they have paid for, infringing on the rights of other people? If you can't make your point without resorting to that kind of harrassment of other people, then you must not have a very good point in the first place.

Cork

Do these anti bin protestors have any alternative to waste management to landfill?

recycling ,re-use, and reduction?

The government has built many civic amenity sites and bring centes around Dublin.

Dubliners - Recycle or Ye'd be back to "Dirty Dublin".

Cork

Originally posted by Meh
Recycling has nothing to do with waste disposal policies?
So by "effective" protesting you mean what exactly? Blocking roads, denying other people services they have paid for, infringing on the rights of other people? If you can't make your point without resorting to that kind of harrassment of other people, then you must not have a very good point in the first place.

Good Point. Preventing rubbish being collected is not effective protest.

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
Recycling has nothing to do with waste disposal policies?

No, recycling and waste disposal policies have nothing to do with the protests, which is what we're meant to be talking about.

So by "effective" protesting you mean what exactly?

By effective protesting, I mean protesting that causes effects. Protest outside the Dail with the largest civil protest in the state's history, and Bertie will ignore it on the day, and turn around the following day and say he agreed with you all along and that the protest was really his idea.
Block a few bin lorries, and you actually get a response.

If you can't make your point without resorting to that kind of harrassment of other people, then you must not have a very good point in the first place.

Or else you've got a government that leaves you no other choice, apart from shutting up and accepting whatever ****e gets put in your sandwich.

(someguy)

tell those shcumbags to have one less pint or a few less cigarettes per week and stop crying about a waste charge. and i wonder how many of them are dole sponges.
i'm sure most PAYE payers dont wanna pay for the unemployable to sit on their asses all day with their tax money, yet they begrudge paying a small waste collection fee.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Do these anti bin protestors have any alternative to waste management to landfill?
recycling ,re-use, and reduction?

Cork, we're not talking about recycling policies or waste disposal policies.

The government has built many civic amenity sites and bring centes around Dublin.

And I can wiggle my little toe on it's own.
Actually, I think that's more relevant to the argument than your statement...

Dubliners - Recycle or Ye'd be back to "Dirty Dublin".

"People of Ireland, rise up! You have nothing to lose but your chains!"
What, you thought noone else could quote?
C'mon cork, you've got at least one arguement that's relevant to the topic in there somewhere, I know you have. Come on cork, we believe in you!

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Good Point. Preventing rubbish being collected is not effective protest.

It seems to be having an effect though, doesn't it?
And it worked the last time too - down in Cork City, didn't it cork?

Cork

Originally posted by (someguy)
tell those shcumbags to have one less pint or a few less cigarettes per week and stop crying about a waste charge. and i wonder how many of them are dole sponges.
i'm sure most PAYE payers dont wanna pay for the unemployable to sit on their asses all day with their tax money, yet they begrudge paying a small waste collection fee.

Spongers?

No way.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
It seems to be having an effect though, doesn't it?
And it worked the last time too - down in Cork City, didn't it cork?

Cork People have no problem with paying refuse charges.

Well, the vast majority of Dubliners don't either.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
I hope these people are not on social welfare. I think, if they are claiming unemployment assistance/benefit - must they be available for work?

Not to worry cork, most of them are housewives or house husbands, you have to check into the dole office to say you're available for work - not sit there all day, and if they were on social welfare, sure and wouldn't all be free under the "waiver scheme"?
Or are you disagreeing with your own side on that?

BTW, still waiting for a decent argument from you...

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Cork People have no problem with paying refuse charges.

LIAR!
Cork people were going to jail two years before dublin people in protests about the bin taxes, before they took the government to court and won.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks


BTW, still waiting for a decent argument from you...

I am waiting for the anti bin brigade to proove - where they have paid twice?

Local Authorities can charge for their services.

I have no intention of getting into a slagging match with you - as I pay for my rubbish.

I pay my taxes. I also pay for my ESB. Maybe you have paid for this too twice?

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
LIAR!
Cork people were going to jail two years before dublin people in protests about the bin taxes, before they took the government to court and won.

Well - If we don;t buy our tags - It won't be taken away.

It really starts with people filling a bin.

The rubbish men will only take it away - when you buy your tag.

It is quiet simple really.

People are REPONSIBLE for the waste THEY produce.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
LIAR!
Cork people were going to jail two years before dublin people in protests about the bin taxes, before they took the government to court and won.

Well - If we don;t buy our tags - It won't be taken away.

It really starts with people filling a bin.

The rubbish men will only take it away - when you buy your tag.

It is quiet simple really.

(Sorry, I am not aware of what they did in Cork 2 years ago - I am new to the city (Cork is a big County))ople are REPONSIBLE for the waste THEY produce.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
I am waiting for the anti bin brigade to proove - where they have paid twice?

Well, it's been shown here in this thread cork, so I gues snow we just need to wait till someone takes the government to court - again.
Maybe it'll be someone from cork again?

I have no intention of getting into a slagging match with you - as I pay for my rubbish.

Slagging is where I call you names you haven't earned. But I've told you several times that it was a cork counciller that took the government to court two years ago, and that the bin tax protests were in cork at that time, and you've continued to lie about how cork people feel about the bin tax. So you're a liar. Hell, the only place you couldn't be called a liar is in the Dail, where apparently, you can only be "economical with the truth" or other such euphamisms.

I pay my taxes. I also pay for my ESB. Maybe you have paid for this too twice?

Nope, just the once.
I paid twice for my waste disposal, just as you did.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
No, recycling and waste disposal policies have nothing to do with the protests, which is what we're meant to be talking about.

Isn't "how do we fund it?" a critical part of any waste disposal policy?

By effective protesting, I mean protesting that causes effects. Protest outside the Dail with the largest civil protest in the state's history, and Bertie will ignore it on the day, and turn around the following day and say he agreed with you all along and that the protest was really his idea.
Block a few bin lorries, and you actually get a response.

I'm confused then, as to why you blame the current government for outlawing your euphemistically named "effective protesting". There is not, and there has never been, a right to obstruct traffic on public roads in this country.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Well - If we don;t buy our tags - It won't be taken away.

Which is why there's a protest. Which is why there was a protest in Cork. Which is why the government was taken to court. Where they lost.

It really starts with people filling a bin.

Did I mention my little toe?

The rubbish men will only take it away - when you buy your tag.
It is quiet simple really.

It's actually not - you see, the environment act 2003 overrules several prior acts saying that taking away waste is an essential service for the community and it must be done - and that nonpayment of the service charge must be dealt with through the courts, not by refuseing to take away the rubbish.
Now, had FF been happy with this, the bin tax protestors would have been taken to court for nonpayment of service charges and this whole mess would have been sorted one way or another. However, they didn't. Instead, rather than risk going to court again, they decided to change the law. And now we have the same mess again, taking up time and effort that could be better used elsewhere.

People are REPONSIBLE for the waste THEY produce.

So how come the 2 million tonnes of waste produced annually in private homes gets so much attention, while the 78 mbillion tonnes generated by businesses and agriculture gets so little?

Cork

Pick up local newspapers in Cork. Bin charges are not an issue.

The Irish Examiner did publish yer man & the bin lorry photos today.

There is not, and there has never been, a right to obstruct traffic on public roads in this country.

There surely has not.

A more responsible atitude to waste management is here to stay. It will involve recycling and waste reduction.

People need to accept that - as consumers we produce waste.

It is up to us to deal with it.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks



So how come the 2 million tonnes of waste produced annually in private homes gets so much attention, while the 78 mbillion tonnes generated by businesses and agriculture gets so little?

Businesses pay rates and commercail refuse charges.

So, Lets bring back rates?

Are you advocating this??

What is you solution with regards refuse?

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
Isn't "how do we fund it?" a critical part of any waste disposal policy?

Indeed. But if we're just asking "how do we fund it", the policy itself isn't under question.

I'm confused then, as to why you blame the current government for outlawing your euphemistically named "effective protesting".

euphimism???
I call it effective protesting because it's protesting that's effective - where's the euphamism?

There is not, and there has never been, a right to obstruct traffic on public roads in this country.

True - but when the government prevents any other form of effective protest, what do you expect people to do? Lie down and assume that Bertie&Co have moral superiority?

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks

True - but when the government prevents any other form of effective protest, what do you expect people to do? Lie down and assume that Bertie&Co have moral superiority?

Who is the arguement with?
Bertie?
The Government?
Local Authorites?
People Of Dublin?
The Irish Courts?
The EU?
The World?

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Pick up local newspapers in Cork. Bin charges are not an issue.

Really?
Try asking the Cork Anti Service Charges campaign...

There surely has not.
A more responsible atitude to waste management is here to stay. It will involve recycling and waste reduction.
People need to accept that - as consumers we produce waste.
It is up to us to deal with it.

And all of that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Cork, you'd never have made it past the application form for a debating society

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Businesses pay rates and commercail refuse charges.
So, Lets bring back rates?
Are you advocating this??

*lol*
Come on cork, is that the best you can do?

What is you solution with regards refuse?

I told you earlier. But if you're not going to listen, I'm not going to repeat it a fourth time....

Cork

I don't expect, my government to pay my private waste operator.

Local Authorities have the power to impose charges.

Waste charges are common place across Europe.

Waste needs to be dealth with thru recycling.

Landfill needs to be discouraged.

From an environmental point of view charging for refuse is a good thing.

It will encourage recycling.

RainyDay

It's a real shame to see the debate deteriorating into pure fantasy.

Originally posted by Sparks
The government then goes and changes the law to overrule the decision and make protesting illegal in one swoop.

It is now that the local environment bill has been railroaded through the Dail and Seanad.

Protesting effectively has been made illegal.

Protesting has not been made illegal. Blocking bin lorries is illegal - plain & simple. No amount of spin or paranoia can make it otherwise.

The charges will continue. It's just a question of how many of the little rabble of protestors are going to have to be jailed before the rest of the city can continue with 'business as normal' first.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
I don't expect, my government to pay my private waste operator.

Neither do the bin tax protestors. They do expect not to have to pay both parties for the service though.

Local Authorities have the power to impose charges.

According to what Act?

Waste charges are common place across Europe.

So are croissants.

Waste needs to be dealth with thru recycling.

That's got nothing to do with this argument.

Landfill needs to be discouraged.

That's got nothing to do with this argument.

From an environmental point of view charging for refuse is a good thing.

No-one's asking for a free service cork, just to only have to pay once for it.

It will encourage recycling.

And still it doesn't sink in.
Cork, this argument's not about recycling, or waste management policies, or any other FF-speak platitudes.

Sparks

Originally posted by RainyDay
It's a real shame to see the debate deteriorating into pure fantasy.

It got there pretty soon after Cork started posting, I notice.
Is that a FF thing, or just Cork, I wonder?

Protesting has not been made illegal. Blocking bin lorries is illegal - plain & simple. No amount of spin or paranoia can make it otherwise.

Hang on. They're protesting by blocking bin lorries because protesting by standing outside the dail didn't work, and neither did taking the government to court. There's no spin here. This was all trashed out two years ago, and the bin tax protestors won, then instead of finalising it in court over whether or not double taxation was illegal, the government just changed the law.
Don't like that the protestors have started protesting the only way left to them? As the americans say, "don't hate the player - hate the game".

The charges will continue. It's just a question of how many of the little rabble of protestors are going to have to be jailed before the rest of the city can continue with 'business as normal' first.

Since nonpayment figures are at 75% in Dublin and 80% in Dun Laoighaire, why would you think that the charges being issued will make any difference? And why would you think that the "little rabble" (i.e. 75% of people in dublin) would agree to "business as usual"???

Cork

Cork, this argument's not about recycling, or waste management policies, or any other FF-speak platitudes.

Landfill is unsustainable. Recycling, Reuse & Reduction are genuinely accepted as part of a waste management policies.

Many more accept this than FF supporters.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Landfill is unsustainable. Recycling, Reuse & Reduction are genuinely accepted as part of a waste management policies.
Many more accept this than FF supporters.

Probably because
1) It's a truism
2) It's an empty phrase with no trade-offs, ie. it's intellectual la-la-land
3) This argument's not about recycling, or waste management policies, or any other FF-speak platitudes.

gurramok

Originally posted by Meh
There is not, and there has never been, a right to obstruct traffic on public roads in this country.

Farmers have had different rights when it comes to blocking roads, just look at the last farmers protest where they brought hundreds of expensive juggernaut tractors into centra ldublin and blocked traffic. Not a single arrest there.

By the way, can the law prove as it stands that a household/person does not produce any rubbish to be collected ?
What if a person decides to burn his/her rubbish on their property rather leaving it out for collection in bin/no bin, is it illegal ??

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
Probably because
1) It's a truism
2) It's an empty phrase with no trade-offs, ie. it's intellectual la-la-land
3) This argument's not about recycling, or waste management policies, or any other FF-speak platitudes.

It is very hard to find landfill sites. New + Existing sites need constant management to ensure environmental standards are maintained, Ground water needs protecting for years. Landfill is not a solution to waste management.


Many counties use landfill sites outside their local authority area. Point being - It is hard to find suitable new sites.

RainyDay

Originally posted by Sparks
Hang on. They're protesting by blocking bin lorries because protesting by standing outside the dail didn't work, and neither did taking the government to court.

Ah now I get it. It is acceptable to break the law with illegal protests if and only if you previous protests have been ignored by just about everybody. Now I understand - silly old me.

Originally posted by Sparks
Since nonpayment figures are at 75% in Dublin and 80% in Dun Laoighaire, why would you think that the charges being issued will make any difference? And why would you think that the "little rabble" (i.e. 75% of people in dublin) would agree to "business as usual"???

More fiction - Where did you get these figures from?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by gurramok
Farmers have had different rights when it comes to blocking roads, just look at the last farmers protest where they brought hundreds of expensive juggernaut tractors into centra ldublin and blocked traffic. Not a single arrest there.

To be fair, I was on Merrion Square that day, and the traffic didn't seem to be that badly disrupted. Besides, it's at least nominally legal to drive a tractor in Dublin.

By the way, can the law prove as it stands that a household/person does not produce any rubbish to be collected ?

Not sure where you're going with this...?

What if a person decides to burn his/her rubbish on their property rather leaving it out for collection in bin/no bin, is it illegal ??

Yes.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Sparks
I have. See above. Where do you think the local government fund comes from?

I think you're being deliberately disingenuous here. Fact is, it's the function of the Department of Finance to allocate tax revenue as required. All other things being equal (I know, I know) it's a zero sum game. If the government doesn't have to fund the local authorities' refuse collection, there's more revenue available to be spent on other things. True or false?

Except that in this case, the government looks to local authority funding requests and says no. Which means that it's their problem to solve, not anyone elses.

Now who's being ambiguous? Can you clarify that statement for me? Whose problem is it?

Do that!

Genuinely, I will. I think it's an interesting idea with potential merit. An idea without a proposal for how to implement it is a pipe-dream, however.

Oh, be serious...

Alright, let's be serious. You obviously want this, and you don't believe it can be implemented through our existing structures. How do you propose to do it?

That's the problem. How do you get people like FF to give up power for the common good?

Me? I lobby my local TDs (of all shades), councillors and MEPs (especially with local and Euro elections approaching), and I make it an issue. How do you plan to do it? Or would you rather grumble about the current situation and refuse to do anything about it?

Sparks

Originally posted by RainyDay
Ah now I get it. It is acceptable to break the law with illegal protests if and only if you previous protests have been ignored by just about everybody. Now I understand - silly old me.

No, you don't get it.
The earlier protests by bin tax protestors were civil and legal and successful. Then the government, having failed to intimidate the bin tax protestors, rather than giving them their chance in court to prove legally once and for all that it was double taxation, decided to change the law, thus snubbing the entire concept of due process.
When the government does that, it's rather obvious that due process will not suffice. So then what do you do?

More fiction - Where did you get these figures from?

Dublin City Corporation and the Dun Laoighaire council.

Originally posted by OscarBravo
I think you're being deliberately disingenuous here. Fact is, it's the function of the Department of Finance to allocate tax revenue as required. All other things being equal (I know, I know) it's a zero sum game. If the government doesn't have to fund the local authorities' refuse collection, there's more revenue available to be spent on other things. True or false?

False. The government doesn't do that. They leave surplus cash in the accounts until the end of the year and promote themselves by saying that the economy is so healthy, there's a surplus in the budget...

The country isn't run (sadly) as a non-profit organisation.

Now who's being ambiguous? Can you clarify that statement for me? Whose problem is it?

The problem is central governments. Over the past years, local authoritities have suffered cutbacks in funding and in the extent of their powers. That's a central government policy, not one that anyone got elected to promote. If that policy causes shortfalls in local authority spending, that's not for the public to compensate for, but for those that caused the problem - ie. central government.
Clearer now?

An idea without a proposal for how to implement it is a pipe-dream, however.

There are proposals for implementation, it's just that most of them involve lots of duct tape and half the cabinet...
Seriously, there are proposed methods for implementation, but the odds of getting it past a FF/PD government is nil, as they've shown their contempt for the average citizen already.

Me? I lobby my local TDs (of all shades), councillors and MEPs (especially with local and Euro elections approaching), and I make it an issue. How do you plan to do it? Or would you rather grumble about the current situation and refuse to do anything about it?

You're missing the point I was making - it's not a possibility to lobby a TD on this, because you're lobbying a TD to give up power, something that no TD in this country will ever do.
The best route I can think of would be to get the None of the Above option on the ballot, and then demand a change to the system in the resulting electoral face-slapping that the major parties will get.

Besides, it's at least nominally legal to drive a tractor in Dublin.

Hold up there. It's also nominally legal to walk on a public road....

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
It is very hard to find landfill sites. New + Existing sites need constant management to ensure environmental standards are maintained, Ground water needs protecting for years. Landfill is not a solution to waste management.
Many counties use landfill sites outside their local authority area. Point being - It is hard to find suitable new sites.

Cork, this argument's not about recycling, or waste management policies, or any other FF-speak platitudes.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
When the government does that, it's rather obvious that due process will not suffice. So then what do you do?

You accept the decision of the democratically elected government, even though you don't agree with it?

RainyDay

Originally posted by Sparks

Since nonpayment figures are at 75% in Dublin and 80% in Dun Laoighaire,

RainyDay: More fiction - Where did you get these figures from?

Dublin City Corporation and the Dun Laoighaire council.

Do you just make this up as you go along, Sparks? The correct figures are actually approximately equal to the inverse of the figures you quote.
From Dublin City Council website

Mr. Matt Twomey, Deputy City Manager said ' it is regrettable that while the vast majority of people have responded, two out of ten householders have not.

Two out of 10 does not = 75%, Sparks.

From Dun Laoghaire Rathdown website

70% of householders in the county have paid in full or at least paid the first moiety of the charge,

30% does not = 80%

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
You accept the decision of the democratically elected government, even though you don't agree with it?

Nope. Not in these circumstances. If you did that, what kind of precedent would you be setting?
Examine the timeline again Meh, and tell me why the government wouldn't do this with something more serious?

2001
Bin tax protests begin in cork.
Bin tax protests escelate : bin tax protestors jailed
Cork councillor goes to supreme court : supreme court rules that local authority may not elect to refuse to collect waste.

Now at this point, the right choice was to pick a bin tax protest representative and take them to court for nonpayment. This would have given a legal ruling on whether or not the bin tax was double taxation. However, cork's pals in FF decided not to, and instead:

2002 Election returns FF/PDs

2003
Protection of local environment bill overrides the 2001 supreme court judgement
Bin tax protests restart, right back at square one.

Sparks

Originally posted by RainyDay
Do you just make this up as you go along, Sparks?

Nope. Mind you, I probably could. I gave my sources for those numbers a number of posts back when you were posting on this thread and it seems you just ignored me, so I could probably make up ****e as I go and you'd never notice...

From Dublin City Council website
Two out of 10 does not = 75%, Sparks.

From an FOI request dated 17th Sept 2002

Total number of households - 166,000 approx
pensioners automatically granted waivers - 20,000 approx
Number of bills sent out - 146,650
Number who have paid in full or part - 36,500
Number who have paid nothing in 2002 - 109,853
ie non-payment of approx 75%

From Dun Laoghaire Rathdown website
30% does not = 80% [/B]

From a Freedom Of Information request :

Out of 64,951 homes sent bills 12,786 had clear accounts at week ending 2nd May 2003. A further 6,380 have paid the first moiety. 13,839 have made other form of payments during the peroid 1/1/03 to 2/5/03. A further 18,627 households have made payments or received a waiver during the peroid 1/1/00 to 2/5/03. 13,319 households have made no payments at all.
So 1/5 have paid and 4/5 (or 80%) haven't paid up (in full or at all) yet.
This info is from Catherine Keenan, Freedom of Information Officer D/R

So do you believe a press release or a FOI request?
Besides, the councils have an interesting way of calculating the figures.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
at week ending 2nd May 2003

So your figures are nearly six months old?

Nope. Not in these circumstances. If you did that, what kind of precedent would you be setting?
Examine the timeline again Meh, and tell me why the government wouldn't do this with something more serious?

Because if they tried it with something more serious, they wouldn't have been reelected?

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
So your figures are nearly six months old?

Yes, they're the most recent figures I have that I'd trust.
If you've put in a FOI request in the meantime, let us know.
But I doubt that 60% of the people in dublin have paid in the intervening months, based on the "wait and see" psychology most people seem to take.

Because if they tried it with something more serious, they wouldn't have been reelected?

Where were you when they did exactly that with the Freedom Of Information Act????
*sheesh*

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
Nope. Not in these circumstances. If you did that, what kind of precedent would you be setting?

One that would perhaps give you a firm place to stand when you wish to complain about actions by others???

If you want to complain that the government did not use due process, or were in some other way "undemocratic" in how they acted, then surely you lose every possible shred of credibility in such a protest by resorting to the same type of action (i.e. somewhat undemocratic, or ignoring of available "due process"). And yet you're insisting that its ok "in these circumstances".

What circumstances? That the government acted incorrectly before you did?

It always cracks me up how many people use the "but they did it first" argument to justtify doing the same thing that you are complaining about others doing.

At best, Sparks, you seem to be saying that its ok for you to disregard the democratic options open to you because you have decided in advance that they wont work (e.g. expressing your opinion with a vote and encouraging others to do likewise - if there is such opposition to bin taxes, surely it can make a dent in the party numbers). At the same time, you appear one step short of frothing at the mouth (e.g. the apparently-increasing frustration that we won't stop disagreeing with you) about how the government achieved this by disregarding some of the democratic options open to them.

Personally, I can't understand that.

jc