Bin charge protests and breastfeeding

Sparks

Originally posted by Victor
Which TDs, I don't think anyone protested the jailing of Liam Lawlor (other than Liam Lawlor).

Clare Daly and Joe Higgins - I think that was more a crowd of people going "Nya Nya ya bastard!" to Lawlor

http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?pt=n&id=37389
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=34576282&p=34576584
http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0923/bins.html

(BTW cork, how does the Irish Examiner's figure of 100 tally with those news reports I've listed here? )

Victor

Originally posted by Sparks
Clare Daly

Is a TD? Really? "castigated for submitting vague data"

Sparks

Originally posted by Victor
Is a TD? Really?

Yes, my bad, she's a counciller, he's a TD. Victor, it's late and I'm knackered, and trying to carry on a debate with Cork would drive Ghandi to distraction!

"castigated for submitting vague data"

Yes, just like that :rolleyes:

IgnatiusJRiley

From Ireland.com today:

1,000% increase in councils' bin charge revenues
Tim O'Brien

Dublin local authorities have been taking in up to €2.2 million a week in bin charge payments following the announcement by the councils that they would be operating a "no payment, no collection" policy.



GOOD TO SEE. I'm sure everyone will agree.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Sparks
Go read my earlier posts please, I'm not here to type them in every time you get curious, that's what those little page number links at the bottom of the page are for.

Don't patronise me.

On page one of this thread, you said:

Introduce pay-by-weight with proper tax credits and there won't be a protest.

Care to elaborate on that? (Or show me where you've elaborated on it, I can't find it.)

Tell you what, if you can tell me how tall I am, I'll change my mind.

What the hell are you talking about now? :rolleyes:

See, my name is easy to find (I was the PRO for a sports organisation for a few years so it had to be), but you'd have to have actually met me at some point to know how tall I am. And if you've never met me, and I've never heard of you (Hell, I don't even know who you are), why should I be broken over losing your respect? Odds are, I'll never even meet you or have any contact with you save through here.
In other words, be realistic.

Ah, I think I get it now. We'll never meet, so therefore I'm not a real person, and you don't owe me the courtesy of mutual respect.

Fair enough: in future I'll confine my online debates to people with a slightly broader perspective.

Again, you're wrong. I have done things about it. I'm just more realistic about the odds of success than you seem to be, and believe in efficency - find the most likely method to succeed, and pursue it. History tells us that for FF, that method is corruption and bribery. You may not like that, I know I don't - but it's the way it is, for now.

So getting rich enough to bribe the entire government is "likely," is it? Fair play to you.

Probably 'cos I've done so before in more than two or three threads.
Try here for the proper explaination (and all the regulars know the URL I'm about to give you ) :
http://www.noneoftheabove.ie/

See, that wasn't hard, was it? Now I'm better educated on the subject, and you have another signature on your petition. Amazing what can happen when you put a bit of effort into the discussion.

See above. Of course, were we ever to find a legal way to force it to happen, you know what the outcome would be - the next government with a majority would write an act overturning it...

With that attitude, you'll never achieve anything. All the petitions in the world won't amount to anything if your philosophy is "I don't know why I'm bothering..."

Sparks

Originally posted by IgnatiusJRiley
From Ireland.com today:
GOOD TO SEE. I'm sure everyone will agree.

Of course not.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2003/10/17/story117722.html

Campaigners reject bin charge payment figures
17/10/2003 - 1:27:52 pm

The Campaign Against Service Charges has rejected Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown Co Council's figures which say 90% of households have paid the Bin Tax.

Richard Boyd Barrett, the chair of the Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown anti bin tax campaign claimed Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown Co. Council is "lying through their teeth" about the number of people who have paid the bin tax.

"If you look at facts that are already in the public domain it becomes clear that DLRCC’s claims are pure nonsense," he said.

"Adding together the hard core non-payers, the waivers and those who have not paid this year but may have paid in previous years you have close to thirty thousand households who are not compliant with the bin tax in this county alone," Mr Boyd Barrett claiimed.

Sparks

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Don't patronise me.

Then go and read the thread before asking silly questions.

On page one of this thread, you said: Care to elaborate on that? (Or show me where you've elaborated on it, I can't find it.)

It's pretty simple really - everyone agrees that the service has to be paid for and everyone agrees with the idea that the polluter should pay - but noone agrees (outside the councils that is) with the idea of paying twice.
That's it. That's all. Nice and simple and neat. A soundbite worthy even of Cork

Ah, I think I get it now. We'll never meet, so therefore I'm not a real person, and you don't owe me the courtesy of mutual respect.

Nope. Read what I wrote.

Fair enough: in future I'll confine my online debates to people with a slightly broader perspective.

Good luck.

So getting rich enough to bribe the entire government is "likely," is it? Fair play to you.

It's more likely than a governmnet deciding to be self-sacrificing for the sake of the people...

See, that wasn't hard, was it? Now I'm better educated on the subject, and you have another signature on your petition. Amazing what can happen when you put a bit of effort into the discussion.

What was that about patronising people?

With that attitude, you'll never achieve anything. All the petitions in the world won't amount to anything if your philosophy is "I don't know why I'm bothering..."

There's an old saying - you have to work to kill a pessimist. An optimist will do it for you.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Sparks
Then go and read the thread before asking silly questions.

I have. Twice. You haven't explained your point yet - although you seem to think you have - and you didn't in this post either.

It's pretty simple really - everyone agrees that the service has to be paid for and everyone agrees with the idea that the polluter should pay - but noone agrees (outside the councils that is) with the idea of paying twice.
That's it. That's all. Nice and simple and neat. A soundbite worthy even of Cork

Nice, simple, neat and useless.

Explain it to me like I'm six years old: how do you ensure that everyone pays - in proportion to the amount of waste they generate - when it's paid for out of tax revenue.

It's more likely than a governmnet deciding to be self-sacrificing for the sake of the people...

So what did I sign that petition for? Is it going to make you rich?

What was that about patronising people?

It's a simple point: if you bother to explain your position properly, and if your position has merit, you can actually achieve something.

There's an old saying - you have to work to kill a pessimist. An optimist will do it for you.

Feel free to wallow in your pessimism, but don't expect it to win you too many converts.

IgnatiusJRiley

You prove your point
No, YOU prove your point
You prove your point
No, YOU prove your point
You prove your point
No, YOU prove your point
You prove your point
No, YOU prove your point

... we're nearly there. Agreement is about to be reached.

Sparks

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Explain it to me like I'm six years old: how do you ensure that everyone pays - in proportion to the amount of waste they generate - when it's paid for out of tax revenue.

You don't. You reduce the PAYE tax rate in the next budget and introduce a true polluter pays principle. (Which will penalise businesses most since they produce the vast majority of the landfill waste in this country, according to the National Waste Report from the Environmental Protection Agency). And you don't privatise waste management because that's a big mistake. And you don't simply hike charges to people who don't have the finances to challange you in court. And you don't send letters to everyone on the southside demanding 850 euro just before christmas and refusing any installment payment less than 80 euro from those that say they can't pay the full whack.

So what did I sign that petition for? Is it going to make you rich?

Nope. You signed it so we can point to it and deny with confidence anyones suggestion that noone cares about the idea.

You prove your point
No, YOU prove your point
You prove your point
No, YOU prove your point
You prove your point
No, YOU prove your point
You prove your point
No, YOU prove your point

See, thing is, I've been giving facts, figures, reports and so on to prove my point - no-one else has.
So are you going to agree with me? 'Cos I don't see how you can rationally agree with an absence of information.

therecklessone

"Adding together the hard core non-payers, the waivers and those who have not paid this year but may have paid in previous years you have close to thirty thousand households who are not compliant with the bin tax in this county alone," Mr Boyd Barrett claiimed.

Surely Mr. Boyd Barrett is being a little creative with his figures here...

If you avail of a waiver scheme, then surely you are complying with the council's initiative? As such, you can hardly be considered non-compliant then, eh?

If you want to be non-compliant, don't avail of the waiver and face the consequences.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks


Privitisation would be a mistake, as has been shown time and again in this country (anyone remember Eircom?) and the UK (anyone remember Thatcher?) .

[/QUOTE]

What do you mean be "would"?

Local Authorities never collected waste in many parts of this country. They never provided anything close to a universal service. Private operators are successfully collecting reuse around this country.

Local Authories % of domestic waste collection is sinking. This trend will hasten over the next number of years.

Cork

Paying Twice Thing Again.

Social Welfare Recipiants - How have these paid twice?

Should they apply to the council for a waiver?


If I paid twice tax as my neighbour - would I have overpaid?

When is Joe Higgins getting out of the big house?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Sparks
You don't. You reduce the PAYE tax rate in the next budget

By how much? Which rate? How can you be certain that this will save every household precisely what they were paying for refuse collection?

and introduce a true polluter pays principle. (Which will penalise businesses most since they produce the vast majority of the landfill waste in this country, according to the National Waste Report from the Environmental Protection Agency).

Makes sense - but don't most businesses (certainly industries, whatever about retail etc) pay for waste collection anyway?

And you don't privatise waste management because that's a big mistake.

That's not self-evident. You cited Eircom before - Telecom Eireann were not exactly a model of open competition. Eircom are a disaster because of years of lax regulation, not necessarily because of privatisation per se.

And you don't simply hike charges to people who don't have the finances to challange you in court. And you don't send letters to everyone on the southside demanding 850 euro just before christmas and refusing any installment payment less than 80 euro from those that say they can't pay the full whack.

So, how do you bill it, and how do you handle those who still don't pay?

Nope. You signed it so we can point to it and deny with confidence anyones suggestion that noone cares about the idea.

But why, if it's not going to make any difference anyway?

I honestly believe that such a campaign, with a positive focus behind it rather than a cynical/apathetic "what's the point," would actually stand a chance of achieving something.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
What do you mean be "would"?

Well, you're right - with the Nice treaty signed, I should say "will be" since article 133 of the treaty gives away our soverignty rights over about 160 services to the EU commission, with a few noted exceptions - which do not include waste management.

Local Authorities never collected waste in many parts of this country. They never provided anything close to a universal service. Private operators are successfully collecting reuse around this country.

And how does this assist your argument? All you're saying is that if you live where the L.A. doesn't collect refuse, you're being unfairly taxed for a service you don't receive from the state.

Local Authories % of domestic waste collection is sinking. This trend will hasten over the next number of years.

Mainly because your lot have decided that privitisation is the way to go. And as anyone in here that remembers Eircom's IPO will tell you, it's a bad idea.

Paying Twice Thing Again.

Not again cork, it has always been about paying twice.
C'mon, I know you have it in you to actually keep up with the rest of us...

Social Welfare Recipiants - How have these paid twice?

Because the "waiver" scheme in most council areas still requires payment.

Should they apply to the council for a waiver?

Are you saying they should have to?

If I paid twice tax as my neighbour - would I have overpaid?

Cork, if you can afford to pay your tax and your neighbour's tax, you're not going to understand this protest. We're looking here at people that cannot afford to pay the bill the second time. Like those living on the southside who received letters this week demanding 850 euros before any further collection would take place. 850 euros??? At this point in the year, with college fees just paid, school fees just paid, and most families saving up for christmas?

When is Joe Higgins getting out of the big house?

I'd say "in four year's time (or sooner if the government holds another general election before the end of their term)", but given how he actually seems to know that people are pissed off over this and how to leverage that for brownie points, I'd say not until he retires. He'll outlast Bertie, that's for certain...

Sparks

Originally posted by oscarBravo
By how much?

By the amount now paid out to local authorities to cover waste removal charges.

Which rate?

The lower one.

How can you be certain that this will save every household precisely what they were paying for refuse collection?

Maths.

Makes sense - but don't most businesses (certainly industries, whatever about retail etc) pay for waste collection anyway?

Yes, but the question is do they pay an appropriate rate by comparison with private householders.

That's not self-evident. You cited Eircom before - Telecom Eireann were not exactly a model of open competition. Eircom are a disaster because of years of lax regulation, not necessarily because of privatisation per se.

Actually you're wrong. Unless you know the MDs in Eircom, I know a bit more on this than you do (not bragging, you understand, I'm just saying I've seen more of the innards of Eircom since the P&T days), and while aspects of the business are horribly mismanaged, other business units are exceptionally well run. None of which has anything to do with how everyone got massacred on the IPO, of course. The important points to note are that we no longer own the fixed line network that we paid for with tax money, and eircom as a private company now get to set rates for the use of that network.

And even if Eircom seems a bit complex to use as an example, my point can be verified - examine the effects of privitisation in the UK from the thatcher years.

So, how do you bill it

At an agreed per-weight rate, and you don't charge for recycling.

and how do you handle those who still don't pay?

The same way that has been available for the councils to take since 1996 - you take them to court.

But why, if it's not going to make any difference anyway?

Because it pisses off the government when they can't make a simple dismissal of something like that on the basis that there's no data. Which gives me a viscereal sense of satisfaction.

I honestly believe that such a campaign, with a positive focus behind it rather than a cynical/apathetic "what's the point," would actually stand a chance of achieving something.

Then lend a hand. I did, before I got cynical.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks

I'd say "in four year's time (or sooner if the government holds another general election before the end of their term)", but given how he actually seems to know that people are pissed off over this and how to leverage that for brownie points, I'd say not until he retires. He'll outlast Bertie, that's for certain...

Could you list the political groupings that support not paying bin charges and the % national vote they got at the last general election?

How much did Joe Higgins stay in the big house cost the Irish taxpayer?

Villain

Originally posted by Cork
Could you list the political groupings that support not paying bin charges and the % national vote they got at the last general election?

How much did Joe Higgins stay in the big house cost the Irish taxpayer?

LOL Cork FF got a large % in the last election but if there was one that % would be a hell of a lot smaller.

Sparks

Could you list the political groupings that support not paying bin charges and the % national vote they got at the last general election?

I've told you before cork, in response to precisely the same question that I can't and I don't care because politicians are white noise.
C'mon cork, have you so few soundbites that you've now started recycling them? I mean, recycling waste is one thing, but arguments?

How much did Joe Higgins stay in the big house cost the Irish taxpayer?

I don't know, but I agree wholeheartedly with you, it's a waste of money. Thing is, I have already shown that it's Fianna Fail who are wasting the money.

Sparks

BTW, for those with TVs, the late late show is on RTE 1 right now and they're meant to be running a debate on this. Unfortunately as of this morning, they've declined to give the bin tax protestors an equal voice on the show, deciding instead to give them five audience tickets instead of putting a representative up for debate.

Villain

Typical well It's RTE, State run.

In work here so can't see it :-(

OHP

I have just seen the incident with the Lorry driver and the Bin Striker on the Pat Kenny Show ( ermm Late Late Show ) And regardless what anyone says I am angry at the fact that the Lorry Driver was not charged with attempted Murder. If I had 12 or 15 pints in me and I did the same thing they would class me as being drunk and using my vehicle as a lethal weapon. I might have had an excuse for being drunk. But this guy was totally sober and knew exactly what he was doing and refused to stop. While I do not agree with the Fees being charged for refuse collection. This is a totally different matter. Christ it’s a case of attempted murder!! And no feelings of sympathy for anyone should change that. Are we really going to let this go?? If it were your son / daughter would you?

OHP

Cork

What political groups are involved in the Anti bin charges Campaign?

Surely its no secreet?

How many TDs, Senetors or Concillers support the campaign?

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
What political groups are involved in the Anti bin charges Campaign?

All of them cork...

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
All of them cork...

You should have no problem providing links to back this up?

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
You should have no problem providing links to back this up?

I don't need to do so cork, it's been quite obvious that every politician has gotten involved in this campaign on one side or the other...

Now see, if you'd understood what you were asking, you might not find the answer so unusual...

BTW, did anyone else think it was typical of this whole debacle that Minister Cullen could sit there on the Late Late Show, and accuse people in the audience of sponging off their neighbours - while wearing a suit that cost more than a fair number of them earn in a month? Especially that guy that was denied the waiver because his wife's part-time job put them 2.53 euro over the limit for the waiver - so they got an 855 euro bill.
So if she'd just stayed on the dole and not tried to get work, they wouldn't have to pay that 855 euros...

therecklessone

Originally posted by Sparks

BTW, did anyone else think it was typical of this whole debacle that Minister Cullen could sit there on the Late Late Show, and accuse people in the audience of sponging off their neighbours - while wearing a suit that cost more than a fair number of them earn in a month?

And if he'd worn a Celtic jersey and a pair of jeans that would have been better?

Up until now Sparks you've made a valiant effort to debate this issue, in the face of some extreme provocation. It'd be a shame to move away from that.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
that guy that was denied the waiver because his wife's part-time job put them 2.53 euro over the limit for the waiver - so they got an 855 euro bill.

Income Limits were set. He was over the limit.

No metter, where you set the limit - some people will be marginally over it.

while wearing a suit that cost more than a fair number of them earn in a month

How much did his suit cost - I found it hard to tell myself.

Seriously, What groups should be looking for is:

Civic Amenity Sites around this country.

There sites - people could bring, bottles, jars, fridges, batteries, grass cuttings etc.

Waste needs to be taken responsibility for.

There is a text book example of a civic Ameinity site in Macroom, Co. Cork. There needs to be 1000s of these around the country.

There should by funded by central government.

We need to introduce laws to ban packing such as tetra pack milk cartons with the plastic noozle.

These protests have focused peoples attention on waste. It seriously needs to be reduced.

If we take responsibility for it - we won't be charged much for what we dispose thru landfill.

Sparks

Originally posted by therecklessone
And if he'd worn a Celtic jersey and a pair of jeans that would have been better?

No. The point wasn't "oh, suit-wearing people are untrustworthy" - the point was that he was sitting there in more money than the person he was arguing with sees in a month, and he's resorting to calling him a sponger and berating him for not paying out the guts of a thousand euro?

The key here is appreciating the position of the people your policies affect, not adjusting your wardrobe - a case of walking a mile in their shoes rather than wearing their shirt

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Income Limits were set. He was over the limit.

And you realise that that policy is going to promote not working, don't you cork?

No metter, where you set the limit - some people will be marginally over it.

True cork, very true. Mind you, that's why we have this concept of hysterisis in engineering.
Of course, the really smart idea would be a sliding scale of charges, rather than a bill of 850 euro if you're 2.53 euro over a set limit...

How much did his suit cost - I found it hard to tell myself.

A tailored louis copeland? I have a stock one (my one and only suit, bought for my graduation six years ago), bought in the sales and with a discount because it was my first suit and my father always shopped there (engineers have to have suits to work, alas), and it ran to three hundred punts - the guts of 400 euro.
You figure it out.
I'd estimate 12-1500 euro, and that's conservative.

Seriously, What groups should be looking for is:[
Civic Amenity Sites around this country.
There sites - people could bring, bottles, jars, fridges, batteries, grass cuttings etc.

Cork, are you aware that under FF's stewardship, 70% of the "recycleable" waste left at recycling pickup points was dumped in landfills?

We need to introduce laws to ban packing such as tetra pack milk cartons with the plastic noozle.

So that's number 116 is it?
(There's 115 pieces of legislation in the pipeline, 15 in the form of bills and FF haven't brought them to the Dail yet. We could have quite a wait...)

These protests have focused peoples attention on waste. It seriously needs to be reduced.

Irrelevant to the discussion though cork...

If we take responsibility for it - we won't be charged much for what we dispose thru landfill.

Bollocks. Households are responsible for 15% of the waste that goes into landfills. Follow the polluter pays principle you continue to tout Cork, and bill the buisnesses that are causing 85% of the waste!!!

therecklessone

Originally posted by Sparks

Bollocks. Households are responsible for 15% of the waste that goes into landfills. Follow the polluter pays principle you continue to tout Cork, and bill the buisnesses that are causing 85% of the waste!!!

From page 15 of this thread...

Originally posted by Sparks

And over 98.5% of the waste in this country comes from sources other than private homes.
(Hey, if we're gonna quote irrelevant statistics...)

Which is it Sparks?

therecklessone

Originally posted by Sparks
No. The point wasn't "oh, suit-wearing people are untrustworthy" - the point was that he was sitting there in more money than the person he was arguing with sees in a month, and he's resorting to calling him a sponger and berating him for not paying out the guts of a thousand euro?

The key here is appreciating the position of the people your policies affect, not adjusting your wardrobe - a case of walking a mile in their shoes rather than wearing their shirt

None of which is relevant Sparks.

The Minister's wardrobe has nothing to do with the debate. Not everyone has to follow Joe Higgins' example, and live off the average industrial wage.

If I want to engage in the debate, do I have to remove my €400 glasses and put on a pair of Specsavers finest €69.99 jobbies?

Sparks

Originally posted by therecklessone
From page 15 of this thread...
Which is it Sparks?

Both actually.
Total amount of waste produced in this country is about 80 million tonnes, 2 million of which (approximately) is produced by private households. However, much of the agricultural waste is recycled on the land. Taking that into account, and the low level of recycling (by which we mean how much recycling is done, not how much recyclable waste is brought to collection points by households, because 70% of that is just dumped to landfill anyway), the figures show that 15% of the waste that hits the landfill is from private homes.

Clearer?

Sparks

Originally posted by therecklessone
None of which is relevant Sparks.0

Wrong, it's very relevant. In fact it's one of the fundamental causes of this whole protest has been the government's inability or unwillingness to put themselves in the positions of those their policies are affecting - that's what causes the anger that we're seeing in the protestors.

Cullen's behaviour and clothing were just an excellent example of that governmental attitude.

therecklessone

As crystal.

What that means is that 15% of the waste that requires management by local authorities is produced domestically, as opposed to the 1.5% which was the impression I was given by many members of the anti-Bin Tax movement when they have quoted the figure.

It did need clarification after your original post.

Sparks

Originally posted by therecklessone
What that means is that 15% of the waste that requires management by local authorities is produced domestically, as opposed to the 1.5% which was the impression I was given by many members of the anti-Bin Tax movement when they have quoted the figure.

*sigh*
Nope.
15% of waste produced by private homes ends up in landfill.
But that does not mean that that full 15% is the responsibility of private homes.
Example - I recycle. I buy a bottle of wine (rare, but it does happen ) and when it's finished a week later, I bring it to the recycling point. I put it in the correct glass bin. The bin is collected and then brought to landfill because since Irish Glass closed, there has been no glass recycling facility in Ireland. So my bottle ends up in landfill. Now, should I pay for the landfill space?

therecklessone

Originally posted by Sparks
*sigh*
Nope.
15% of waste produced by private homes ends up in landfill.
But that does not mean that that full 15% is the responsibility of private homes.
Example - I recycle. I buy a bottle of wine (rare, but it does happen ) and when it's finished a week later, I bring it to the recycling point. I put it in the correct glass bin. The bin is collected and then brought to landfill because since Irish Glass closed, there has been no glass recycling facility in Ireland. So my bottle ends up in landfill. Now, should I pay for the landfill space?

I really wish you wouldn't express you weariness when you're replying to me Sparks, its slightly insulting...sort of in a "do I have to tell this idiot again" sort of way...

I've only got involved with this thread because I had heard the two figures, 1.5% and 15%, mentioned quite a bit during the week. Anti-bin tax folk have used the 1.5% argument quite a bit, and I heard Cullen mention the figure of 15% (it may have been 14% he said) on the Last Word mid-week.

Without wanting to appear pedantic, you mentioned 15% in the following context

Originally posted by Sparks

Bollocks. Households are responsible for 15% of the waste that goes into landfills. Follow the polluter pays principle you continue to tout Cork, and bill the buisnesses that are causing 85% of the waste!!!

Surely if much of the waste being "recycled" is in fact going to landfill sites anyway, then households aren't responsible (your words) for 15% at all. The people who should then be held responsible are those who dump "recycled" waste, no? I can only respond to what you say, nothing more nothing less.

Otherwise, keep up the good work...;)

p.s. I'd appreciate some link or otherwise that supported your claim that "recycled" material is in fact being dumped in ladfill. ta.

Sparks

Originally posted by therecklessone
I'd appreciate some link or otherwise that supported your claim that "recycled" material is in fact being dumped in ladfill. ta.

Same source as before, the National Waste Report from the Environmental Protection Agency. Note that the percentage of material that went to landfill from recycling points varys according to the class of material - 92.6% for paper, 70.9% for glass, 99.4% for plastic and 95.3% for organic waste.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
?
True cork, very true. Mind you, that's why we have this concept of hysterisis in engineering.
Of course, the really smart idea would be a sliding scale of charges, rather than a bill of 850 euro if you're 2.53 euro over a set limit...

b]

By reducing direct taxation - it acts as an incentive for people to go out & work.

When people were paying 35% in tax - people were better off on welfare.

But with lower taxes - this has changed for many.

Landfill is not an acceptable method of dealing with waste.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Sparks
Same source as before, the National Waste Report from the Environmental Protection Agency. Note that the percentage of material that went to landfill from recycling points varys according to the class of material - 92.6% for paper, 70.9% for glass, 99.4% for plastic and 95.3% for organic waste.

Thanks, I'll check that out when I get a free minute.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork


Landfill is not an acceptable method of dealing with waste.

I presume you will also be perusing the National Waste Report from the Environmental Protection Agency that Sparks mentioned then Cork?

If he's right, then how can anyone expect householders to pay for the waste they leave at their doorstep, when the material they go to the bother to "recycle" ends up on the same place?

Cork

Originally posted by therecklessone


If he's right, then how can anyone expect householders to pay for the waste they leave at their doorstep, when the material they go to the bother to "recycle" ends up on the same place?

Local Government/Industry & government need to develop the infrastructure for recycling. Kerb Side iniatatives will not be economic in many areas.

Civic Ameinity Sites like the one in Macroom need to be built around the country.

People need to be ecouraged not to throw all their trash into a wheelie bin.

How is throwing all garbage into a bin - taking environmental responsibility?

There needs to be a dis-incentive for people to fill their bins up with garbage. Just as the 15c bag levy has cut down on plastic bags. Payment by wieght will encourage recycling.

From an environmental point of view bin charges are a positive development. It will be up to people to cut these charges by recycling.

Nobody is forcing people to put bins out every week. If a person was effectively recycling - they might only have to put out a bin rarely.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Sparks
By the amount now paid out to local authorities to cover waste removal charges.

How much is that in percentage terms? IOW, what should the new tax rate be?

Maths.

Very trite. I'll take that to mean that you don't intend to answer the question.

Yes, but the question is do they pay an appropriate rate by comparison with private householders.

Frankly, I don't know, but I assume pay-by-weight would make the question moot.

Actually you're wrong. Unless you know the MDs in Eircom, I know a bit more on this than you do (not bragging, you understand, I'm just saying I've seen more of the innards of Eircom since the P&T days), and while aspects of the business are horribly mismanaged, other business units are exceptionally well run.

I never actually mentioned mismanagement. It strikes me as a company that is very good at what it does: making TOR rich.

None of which has anything to do with how everyone got massacred on the IPO, of course. The important points to note are that we no longer own the fixed line network that we paid for with tax money, and eircom as a private company now get to set rates for the use of that network.

...which neatly returns to my point that the problem is one of regulation, not of privatisation per se.

At an agreed per-weight rate, and you don't charge for recycling.

Let me rephrase: is it up to the local authorities to bill people? Monthly? Annually? In advance, in the form of tags or bags?

What happens when some people find their waste charges are greater than their tax reduction, and start protesting that they've paid twice?

The same way that has been available for the councils to take since 1996 - you take them to court.

But you still collect their refuse? What's the sanction for non-payment?

Because it pisses off the government when they can't make a simple dismissal of something like that on the basis that there's no data. Which gives me a viscereal sense of satisfaction.

I really think I'd rather be doing something in order to achieve a concrete goal, rather than just to piss someone off.

Then lend a hand. I did, before I got cynical.

I've a few other things I'm passionate about, and I'm determined to get them done first.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork
Local Government/Industry & government need to develop the infrastructure for recycling. Kerb Side iniatatives will not be economic in many areas.

Civic Ameinity Sites like the one in Macroom need to be built around the country.

People need to be ecouraged not to throw all their trash into a wheelie bin.

How is throwing all garbage into a bin - taking environmental responsibility?

There needs to be a dis-incentive for people to fill their bins up with garbage. Just as the 15c bag levy has cut down on plastic bags. Payment by wieght will encourage recycling.

From an environmental point of view bin charges are a positive development. It will be up to people to cut these charges by recycling.

I agree with you Cork.

However, if what Sparks is saying is correct re. recycled waste ending up in landfill anyway, isn't it a bit ridiculous to tell people they have to pay for the waste they create...surely they are also paying for the household waste they went to the bother of recycling as well to be dealt with at traditional landfill sites. Are you going to tell me that people should pay for the conventional, non-environmentally friendly, treatment of "recycled" waste?

Even you can't dismiss that with your usual sloganeering.

Originally posted by Cork
Nobody is forcing people to put bins out every week. If a person was effectively recycling - they might only have to put out a bin rarely.

And if they go to the bother of recycling as much as possible, should they be helf financially liable for the treatment of such material at a landfill site?

Re-read what Sparks said, then comment.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
By reducing direct taxation - it acts as an incentive for people to go out & work.

Weren't watching the debate or reading the posts here, were you?
2.53 euro over the limit = 855 euro bill. Obvious answer - stop working and going on the dole. Or just cheat on your taxes.

When people were paying 35% in tax - people were better off on welfare.

As they are now.

But with lower taxes - this has changed for many.

Not for many. For a few. Who happen to be in the top tax bracket anyway.

Landfill is not an acceptable method of dealing with waste.

So why is Fianna Fail using it for almost all waste instead of recycling? Why isn't Fianna Fail following the "polluter pays" principle? Why isn't Fianna Fail committed to the waste management problem Cork? And why are you continually trying to evade the point and saying anything rather than addressing the problem?

Cork, are you sure you're not a Fianna Fail TD?

Cork

Originally posted by therecklessone

And if they go to the bother of recycling as much as possible, should they be helf financially liable for the treatment of such material at a landfill site?

There should be a proper recycling infrastructure in this country. Civic Amenity Sites are the way to go.

Landfill can't be an answer to the waste problem.

If somebody has to pay a levy of 15c to get a plastic bag and they are left to fill plastic wheelie bins with their trash - it makes no environmental sense.

Some people don't recycle because it is inconvienant. These people need to be discouraged putting their trash out for landfill.

But, I agree with ye that local authorities should be an infrastucture in place to accomadate mass recycling.

Sparks

Originally posted by oscarBravo
How much is that in percentage terms? IOW, what should the new tax rate be?

I don't have the figures to give you an exact figure
I'd have to put in nearly 50 FOI requests at 20 quid a pop to get the numbers - and I'm afraid that I can't afford a thousand euro to calculate one number for you OB
(And people said the FOI Act amendment wouldn't affect normal life )

Frankly, I don't know, but I assume pay-by-weight would make the question moot.

It may not - different classes of waste and all that.

I never actually mentioned mismanagement. It strikes me as a company that is very good at what it does: making TOR rich. ...which neatly returns to my point that the problem is one of regulation, not of privatisation per se.

On the contrary. Every time a service gets privatised, we find that a raft of legislation is needed to regulate the new market to ensure that the level of service provided does not slip from where it was prior to privatisation - and with the current government that's not going to happen.

Let me rephrase: is it up to the local authorities to bill people? Monthly? Annually? In advance, in the form of tags or bags?

The fairest scheme would seem to be local authority charges on a per-weight basis, but with fair rates compared to the largest polluters in the country (business and agriculture), and with no charge for any waste in recycling bins, and with a drop in PAYE taxes at the lower rate, and with waiver schemes for those on social welfare and below a set threshold - and a sliding scale above that threshold. For example, earn 20 euro more than the threshold and your bill is 20 euro, not 850...
And that's all just common sense. Which leads you to wonder what the government is up to...

What happens when some people find their waste charges are greater than their tax reduction, and start protesting that they've paid twice?

You ensure that their tax reduction is fair, and you ensure that they have the ability to reduce their waste charges by providing recycling facilities. After doing that, it is down to them.

But you still collect their refuse?

Yes, as a public health issue.

What's the sanction for non-payment?

Court-ordered fines. As it always is. This is a standard route the councils and other people have always had.

I really think I'd rather be doing something in order to achieve a concrete goal, rather than just to piss someone off.

And if I knew of a worthwhile means to achieve that goal, so would I.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Local Government/Industry & government need to develop the infrastructure for recycling.

Indeed they do. And until they do, they need to stop blaming ordinary citizens for the problem that the government has created, by spending taxpayer's money on expensive ad campaigns and getting into slagging matches on the Late Late Show.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

Kerb Side iniatatives will not be economic in many areas.

That's immaterial. The economic viability of a recycling service cannot be used to decide not to provide a recycling facility, not if it's as important as Fianna Fail would have us believe...
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

Civic Ameinity Sites like the one in Macroom need to be built around the country.

From the National Waste Report 2001:

In addition, members of the public can bring waste materials to civic waste facilities, also known as
civic amenity sites. In general, these sites accept bulkier items such as fridges and freezers and
household hazardous wastes as well as the waste types accepted at bring bank sites. A total of 53 such
sites are currently in existence; 35 are located at existing landfill sites1, 11 are associated with transfer
stations, one is associated with a composting facility and six are stand alone sites.

And despite all these sites, recycling rates are still tiny. Not the best record there Cork.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

People need to be ecouraged not to throw all their trash into a wheelie bin.

People on the whole don't do that cork, where recycling is available, it's used - but Fianna Fail's failure has led to a situation where rubbish thrown into the bin and wast put in the recycling bin both end up in the landfill.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

How is throwing all garbage into a bin - taking environmental responsibility?

It isn't! So why is Fianna Fail dumping all the waste, including that seperated with some effort by householders, into landfills?
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

There needs to be a dis-incentive for people to fill their bins up with garbage. Just as the 15c bag levy has cut down on plastic bags. Payment by wieght will encourage recycling.

There doesn't need to be a disincentive, people have taken up recycling when it's offered. However, Fianna Fail's failure to provide a waste recycling infrastructure means that the "recycled waste" goes straight to landfill.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

From an environmental point of view bin charges are a positive development.

No they're not. They're irrelevant from an environmental point of view, because Fianna Fail hasn't provided for a proper waste recycling infrastructure and any recycling efforts made are in vain.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

It will be up to people to cut these charges by recycling.

It won't be, because the waste collection industry is to be privatised, at which point recycling won't help because the company is there to make a profit, not to help the environment.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

Nobody is forcing people to put bins out every week. If a person was effectively recycling - they might only have to put out a bin rarely.

But it wouldn't matter cork, because Fianna Fail's failure to provide a waste recycling infrastructure means that the "recycled waste" goes straight to landfill.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
There should be a proper recycling infrastructure in this country.

Darn right there should. After six years of government during the most prosperous time in the history of the state - why hasn't Fianna Fail done so, and why are they now blaming ordinary people for the problem, and using taxpayers money to do so?
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

Civic Amenity Sites are the way to go.

Their record contradicts that statement.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

Landfill can't be an answer to the waste problem.

Indeed it can't - so why is Fianna Fail insisting that it is?
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

If somebody has to pay a levy of 15c to get a plastic bag and they are left to fill plastic wheelie bins with their trash - it makes no environmental sense.

No more so than landfilling seperated recyclable waste does. So why is Fianna Fail landfilling waste that could be recycled to reduce environmental damage?
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

Some people don't recycle because it is inconvienant.

But they're in a minority - the figures show that where recycling facilities are available, they are used.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

These people need to be discouraged putting their trash out for landfill.

How? Any waste that is put out, whether dross or recyclable, goes to landfill anyway, thanks to the failure of Fianna Fail.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

But, I agree with ye that local authorities should be an infrastucture in place to accomadate mass recycling.

So why haven't Fianna Fail put that infrastructure in place during it's six years in office at a time where they had more money than any other government in the history of the state?
Mind you, this has nothing to do with the bin tax debate.

Sparks

Originally posted by therecklessone
Even you can't dismiss that with your usual sloganeering.

Mind you, he's trying...