Minisiter Martin on The Late Late Show & Implementing the Ban

Villain

I know theres numerous threads on this issue but I think we need to change the discussion a bit.

The Minister is not going to change his mind, this Ban is going to happen whether we want it or not. The problem now is:

How are we going to implement this new legislation??

I worked in a bar for almost 8 years and I don't smoke so I would be in favour of A ban, but one that would give some compermise.

I'm sure big pubs which have security will be able to implement the ban easy enough but what about the Rural pubs. I was in a small bar recently and there was 8 men all aged over 60 who were sitting at the bar, all 8 were smoking. Now in gods name you tell me how you would get all 8 to stop smoking without losing there custom??

This ban can be implemented by refusing to serve those smoking, but that will result in loss of custom followed by loss of earnings which leads to job losses.

How will this work, someone calls the Health Boards number and reports that someone was smoking they arrive a few days later and no-one is smoking.!!

Minister Martin is too damn stuck up his own arse to realise the practical issues in implementing this issue, and that is why it will fail to be implemented.

And While the Minister spends all his time talking around the issue with stats from OTHER countries , the Hospitals continue to be overcrowded and in a state of total disaster.

One last point, Minister Martin should realise that all his research is based on OTHER countries which don't have the same Pub Culture as us.

star gazer

I think they should concentrate on the centres of every town and city for the first six months, then expand enforcement to every pub. We have a pub culture but why not have a healthier pub culture. Most would agree that enjoying alcohol in moderation would be a better advertisement for irish pub culture than fights breaking out and drunken fools getting sick all over one's shoes. Smoke is disgusting and even smokers dislike the smell on their clothes, the cough they get from it, the colour of flegm they cough up and the damage it must do to lungs that inhale it. I don't smoke, i have asthma so i know what it means to suffer in a smoke-filled atmosphere. I think smokers have had it their way for the twentieth century, time for clean air in the twenty first.

Vader

they said it would be impossible to implement a ban in cinemas, on areoplanes and in public buildings. Has it, no!

And While the Minister spends all his time talking around the issue with stats from OTHER countries , the Hospitals continue to be overcrowded and in a state of total disaster.

70% of adults entering hospital has respritary or heart relater problems. Smoking and particularly second hand smoke causes this. The Minister IS trying to cut down on overcrowding in hospitals with this ban.
90% of people going to A&E after 10pm are there as a result of a
drink related incidance. Just think about it.

The only important question is, does smoking kill? Yes. Anyone who says no is deliberatly lying to you. Which is more imporant, peoples lives or peoples jobs?

As for the whole question of implementation, there sending out plain clothed inspectors, not gardí who will fine the pub not the customer. Failure to pay fines or repeated offences will lead to a loss of licence. I think pubs will implement the ban fairly lively

Cork

I think that there will be freephone numbers where people can report breaches of the ban.

Knowing the general public - this will be effective.

Villain

Originally posted by Vader
they said it would be impossible to implement a ban in cinemas, on areoplanes and in public buildings. Has it, no!

No Comparison, you see your not comparing like with like, 50% of smokers I know only smoke when drinking.

Originally posted by Vader

70% of adults entering hospital has respritary or heart relater problems. Smoking and particularly second hand smoke causes this. The Minister IS trying to cut down on overcrowding in hospitals with this ban.
90% of people going to A&E after 10pm are there as a result of a
drink related incidance. Just think about it.

Firstly this will not stop people smoking, it will hopefuly reduce the numbers do. Secondly drink is a totally different issue and if you think this ban will reduce drink related violence your very wrong if anything it will cause more rows when people appreoach drunk patrons and ask them to stop smoking.

Originally posted by Vader

The only important question is, does smoking kill? Yes. Anyone who says no is deliberatly lying to you. Which is more imporant, peoples lives or peoples jobs?.

Nobody is saying it doesn't kill, majority of people want the ban but not in the way the Minister is trying to bully it in.

Originally posted by Vader

As for the whole question of implementation, there sending out plain clothed inspectors, not gardí who will fine the pub not the customer. Failure to pay fines or repeated offences will lead to a loss of licence. I think pubs will implement the ban fairly lively

You must have your head stuck in the sand mate, come down the country and see if this ban will be implemented, I live in a small town that has 13 pubs in it and I can gurantee the health board won't be around to these too often.

Publicans are only allowed use reasonable force, so what if people refuse how can you then fine the publican.

The legislation is unworkable in it's proposed form and anyone who thinks otherwise should get their head out of the sand and realise this.

Vader

No Comparison, you see your not comparing like with like, 50% of smokers I know only smoke when drinking

Then tey're not serious smokers and will be able to adjust.

On the late late somebody said only 3 outa 10 people smoke.
Those other seven arnt going to tell their friends to stop and if you servey them they might say they dont care too much. This means ppl dont want to go against the flow, become unpopular and be a loner. It doesnt mean they should be killed. [B[Smoking Kills[/B]. Maybe this isnt being made clear enough.

majority of people want the ban but not in the way the Minister is trying to bully it in.

There is no other way. If you have on room for smokers and another for nonsmokers then those 3 ppl I talked about will go into that room, their 7 friend will go with them and nother has changed!

Cigarettes are drugs, I dont accept the arguement that they are legal and thus OK because if they were invented tomorrow they would be illegal.

On the second week of Jan Ill go into my local, if I see somebody still smoking I'll make an anonamous phone call to the relevent authority.

Villain

Originally posted by Vader
On the second week of Jan Ill go into my local, if I see somebody still smoking I'll make an anonamous phone call to the relevent authority.

And wait a week fo them to come??

I noticed the way you only replied to selective arguments in my last post.

:rolleyes:

It won't work!!

Cork

It will be up to the publicans to enforce the law - & if they can't then they'll have to face due process.

Cimena Owners, Work places and Airlines have no problem. It won't be too difficult for pub owners.

Saw the debate, that man Garvey of the VFI came across as a twat.
He laughed in an evil way when some guy in the audience refered to studies in a book as to what passive smoking does.

Also I had no sympathy at all for the guy who has had to close his ventilation system company.

FFS, he wanted people to continue smoking in pubs so he could continue to sell ventilations systems, that are very costly to put in and costly to run.

There are other jobs out there, more morally suitable than that methinks.

There was an interesting exchange between a New York Barman who claimed that jobs were being lost and that he had to "shame" the minister into coming to his pub to talk to him.
Martin rejected that and said he had spoken to plenty of Barmen who told him, business in their pubs in New York was now actually better than before the ban.

There was a lady from Boston who said Bars in that City were thriving since the ban was introduced.

Also heard someone from the VFI on The last word the other day on Today FM.
They were touting that now infamous independent survey of bar workers stating that the ban was a bad idea.
Matt cooper then said " Well if thats the case how come 90% of the Barworkers that ring this programme are in favour of the Ban? "
The VFI guy had no answer really only to repeat his survey was gospel:rolleyes:
Apparently mandate are wrong as are those that phone Today FM-yeah Right!:rolleyes:

mm

Vader

irish 1 -- what part of your arguement diddnt I reply to.
The only thing I diddnt disprove was your gurantee
the health board won't be around too often. to implement its ban.
I just had to laugh. Besides I all ready said how the ban will be inforced in my first post

As for the whole question of implementation, there sending out plain clothed inspectors, not gardí who will fine the pub not the customer. Failure to pay fines or repeated offences will lead to a loss of licence.

Ant further clarification needed?:cool:

Villain

Originally posted by irish1


Firstly this will not stop people smoking, it will hopefuly reduce the numbers do. Secondly drink is a totally different issue and if you think this ban will reduce drink related violence your very wrong if anything it will cause more rows when people appreoach drunk patrons and ask them to stop smoking.

Publicans are only allowed use reasonable force, so what if people refuse how can you then fine the publican.

RainyDay

Implementation will be fairly straightforward. Most citizens are generally law-abiding, and most people will obey the law once asked. Publicans won't need to use force. If a smoker refuses to put it out, they simply won't be served more drink. Repeat offenders will be refused drink repeatedly. And like magic, us oxygen addicts will actually be able to enjoy visits to pubs again.

It won't be painless exercise - any cultural/legal change like this will require a period of adjustment. The six elderly gentlemen at the bar have the choices of;

a) Giving up smoking (at least for their pub time) & improving their health & finances
b) Taking turns going to each others houses, if they really really need to get some more tar in their lungs.
c) Staying at home on their own & smoking their own brains out without affecting anyone else.

In reality, I guess it will be a combination of all three options.

The ban will also be effectively enforced by the 71% majority of non-smokers. Ever since the first restrictions on smoking in banks & other places came into place (early 90's?), I've taken steps myself to enforce these restrictions by highlighting smokers to management, educating them on the possible risks to their businesses. It doesn't work 100% of the time, but it will be generally be effective.

Calls to the hotline will also be a measure of the compliance level in pubs. This will be used by the EHO's (Environmental Health Officers) to prioritise pubs for visiting. Chances are, if they have got a few calls for any particular pub over a few weeks, they will just need to drop in at any busy time to get the evidence they need. A few nice 1900 euro fines and a few temporary refusals to renew pub licences by judges when presented with evidence of non-compliance will be very effective.

Villain

People really don't get this idea do they??

This is Pubs we'r talking about, not cinemas, not bingo halls not airplanes.

None of the above can be compared to a pub where people have alcohol consumed and I would bet my life that if you were to go into any of the 13 pubs in my town more than 29% of the patrons would be smoking.

Yes 71% of the general public don't smoke this does not mean 71% of pub goer's don't smoke.

I want to point out that I am in Favour of a ban on smoking I worked in a pub for nearly 8 years and my health suffered.

But this legislation won't work, how can you expect publicans to enforce it, the government are passing the book. If they were serious about this they would have the Guardai inforcing the law!!

Vader

Originally posted by irish1
Firstly this will not stop people smoking, it will hopefuly reduce the numbers do. Secondly drink is a totally different issue and if you think this ban will reduce drink related violence your very wrong if anything it will cause more rows when people appreoach drunk patrons and ask them to stop smoking.

Publicans are only allowed use reasonable force, so what if people refuse how can you then fine the publican.

1)"Firstly this will not stop people smoking, it will hopefuly reduce the numbers do." Makes no sense. If you meant:
Firstly this will not stop people smoking, it was hoped that it would reduce the numbers who do so, but it wont.
Then my reply is that it will reduce the places open to these ppl to smoke in, the number of times a day they can smoke and the ammount of damage they can do to innocents through second hand smoking.

2)I never said the ban would reduce drink related violence, I said pub culture is nothing to be proud of.

3)An inspector presents the publican with an on the spot fine, the gardí fine him or a concerned citizen brings them to court and they get fined.
If your asking what is the moral justification for then fining the publican:
A) When he applied for a licence he agreed to implement all the governments laws and provide a safe working enviroment.

If bouncers are able to through out "trouble makers" they will be able to manage the task of throughing out smokers.
Any noncompliance with the law is mere laziness and should be dealt with.

C) By banning ppl who smoke from your bar you will make an example and youll find very few brave ppl after that


If your going to tell me this approach will lead to reduced custom, reduved profits and job losses. Dont bother. I care more about my health and your(generic) life than money.
If you want to kill yourself, feel free. Just dont tell me you have the right to kill me too.

Villain

Originally posted by Vader

If your going to tell me this approach will lead to reduced custom, reduved profits and job losses. Dont bother. I care more about my health and your(generic) life than money.
If you want to kill yourself, feel free. Just dont tell me you have the right to kill me too.

I don't smoke, I hate smokie areas, I'm just telling you now from my experience of working in a bar for nearly 8 years this legislation won't work.

A publican can only use reasonable force to stop people smoking so in fact his hands are tied.

Barman"Paddy I'l have to ask you to stop smoking its aginst the law"

Paddy" Feck off I've smoked in pubs for the last 40 years, think your going to make me go out and smoke in the pissing rain, feck off"

Barman"Paddy it's not me its the law I'm going to have to ask you to leave if you continue to smoke"

Paddy"Just Fu cking try man, ring that number and I'l sort them out"

???:)

star gazer

None of the above can be compared to a pub where people have alcohol consumed
irish1

Think about it, airplane, alcohol, five hours, can you really say that that situation for a chain smoker isn't worse than having to step outside for a smoke? I knew a guy that almost got arrested in the states because he lit up in the toilet. The plane was about to turn around but he got away with it. It is just plane manners to not light up in a room with none smokers, now it becomes law in pubs. Why should anyone who doesn't smoke have to smoke passively?

(look at me i sound like a nanny )

de5p0i1er

I can't see this ban working without at least some pubs going out of business, what will the government do when some drunk person gets violent and injures a bouncer or bartender, my guess is nothing, why should these people be forced to risk there health & saftey.

TomF

It is hard to know how to answer the poll question. On the one hand, I wonder if the ban will actually be enforced when our traffic laws are not enforced at the cost of many lives. On the other hand I am hopeful that a ban will eventually end smoking in pubs or at least move it into another room in the pubs. My older son worked in a pub in Dublin and another in Cork and always came home reeking with smoke even though he's not a smoker. He, like other pub staff, just couldn't avoid the smoke.

Villain

Originally posted by star gazer
Think about it, airplane, alcohol, five hours, can you really say that that situation for a chain smoker isn't worse than having to step outside for a smoke

I take your point but how often do people fly, I mean I don't know many elderly men that fly every day for 3-4 hours. However I know a hell of a lot of elderly men that smoke and spend 3-4 hours in a pub every night or at least 2-3 nights a week.

I want to make sure your all clear on the question I asked in the Poll. I want to know do you think it will be possible to implement the ban in pubs. I'm not asking if you want it or not, because that doesn't raelly matter anymore the Minister is not for turning.

I have to say I do feel sorry for the elderly people who have enjoyed smoking with a Pint for the last 40 years, it's asking a lot for these people to change their lifestyle.

Originally posted by de5p0i1er
I can't see this ban working without at least some pubs going out of business, what will the government do when some drunk person gets violent and injures a bouncer or bartender, my guess is nothing, why should these people be forced to risk there health & saftey.

Excellent point mate.

RainyDay

Originally posted by irish1
People really don't get this idea do they??

This is Pubs we'r talking about, not cinemas, not bingo halls not airplanes.

None of the above can be compared to a pub where people have alcohol consumed

You paint a picture of rural pubs as a 'wild west' environment where law-breaking is commonplace. This is just not true. Drinkers still obey the law, in general. Drinkers pay for their drinks. Men go to the mens loo. Women go to the womens loo. Publicans charge VAT on their sales & pay VAT & other taxes over to the state.

The smoking ban is just one more law this will be generally enforced by social norms, and the Environmental Health Officers will catch up with frequent offenders.

Originally posted by irish1
I would bet my life that if you were to go into any of the 13 pubs in my town more than 29% of the patrons would be smoking.

Yes 71% of the general public don't smoke this does not mean 71% of pub goer's don't smoke.

I guess you're already aware of this, but the reason why more than 29% of the average pub population smoke is because many, many of the non-smoking majority have been effectively chased out of their pubs over the years by the foul, carcinogenic atmosphere.

The ban creates a real business opportunity for those publicans who are smart enough to see it. Many businesses would kill for a chance at a legislative change that will improve conditions for 71% of the population. Now if the publicans sit back on their asses & do nothing, I'm sure their income will drop. But if they dig deep into their creativity reserves and come up with good reasons to get non-smokers back to pubs, their business will be booming. How about some really nice pub food? (No, not the grey slab of roast beef that has been sitting under the carvery warming lamps for 2 hours - I mean really nice food). How about some good interesting specialist music nights, with jazz, or traditional, or metal or whatever?

The social fabric of Ireland will not dissappear as a result of the ban - It's just the smoke/tar/cancer that will dissappear.

RainyDay

Originally posted by irish1
Barman"Paddy I'l have to ask you to stop smoking its aginst the law"

Paddy" Feck off I've smoked in pubs for the last 40 years, think your going to make me go out and smoke in the pissing rain, feck off"

Barman"Paddy it's not me its the law I'm going to have to ask you to leave if you continue to smoke"

Paddy"Just Fu cking try man, ring that number and I'l sort them out"

That's an easy one to resolve. What happens next is;

Barman: "Well, I'm really sorry Paddy. I know you've been a good customer for 20 years, but I just can't risk getting a €1900 fine to keep you happy. If you don't put out that fag, I can't serve you any more drink."

Paddy: Rant/Rave/Bluff/Bluster. Then the penny drops. Paddy either buggers off home or puts & the fag & has another drink.

Villain

Originally posted by RainyDay
You paint a picture of rural pubs as a 'wild west' environment where law-breaking is commonplace. This is just not true.
The smoking ban is just one more law this will be generally enforced by social norms, and the Environmental Health Officers will catch up with frequent offenders.

The majority of laws are inforced by the police do not by some health official in a suit. As I have previously stated if the police were inforcing this law then it would be accepted a lot more.

Originally posted by RainyDay

I guess you're already aware of this, but the reason why more than 29% of the average pub population smoke is because many, many of the non-smoking majority have been effectively chased out of their pubs over the years by the foul, carcinogenic atmosphere.

Well that depends on what the 71% were taken from I'm not aware of the ins and out of the survey, some people just don't go to pubs for various reason like can't afford to or not interested in that social scene.

Originally posted by RainyDay

The ban creates a real business opportunity for those publicans who are smart enough to see it. Many businesses would kill for a chance at a legislative change that will improve conditions for 71% of the population. Now if the publicans sit back on their asses & do nothing, I'm sure their income will drop. But if they dig deep into their creativity reserves and come up with good reasons to get non-smokers back to pubs, their business will be booming. How about some really nice pub food? (No, not the grey slab of roast beef that has been sitting under the carvery warming lamps for 2 hours - I mean really nice food). How about some good interesting specialist music nights, with jazz, or traditional, or metal or whatever?.

Your correct there but its a lot harder get people in rather than keep excisting customers

Originally posted by RainyDay

The social fabric of Ireland will not dissappear as a result of the ban - It's just the smoke/tar/cancer that will dissappear.

I hope so but don't think it will happen the way it is being enforced.

Villain

Originally posted by RainyDay
That's an easy one to resolve. What happens next is;

Barman: "Well, I'm really sorry Paddy. I know you've been a good customer for 20 years, but I just can't risk getting a €1900 fine to keep you happy. If you don't put out that fag, I can't serve you any more drink."

Paddy: Rant/Rave/Bluff/Bluster. Then the penny drops. Paddy either buggers off home or puts & the fag & has another drink.

Paddy puts the fag orders a pint then lights up again!

Not that simple, and if paddy is a member of the travelling community he can sue you for refusing to serve him!

RainyDay

Originally posted by irish1
Paddy puts the fag orders a pint then lights up again!

Ok, so he gets two fags & two pints. How many times do you think the barman is going to fall for this one? Maybe once? So the ban will take about one hour longer to be effective>

Originally posted by irish1
Not that simple, and if paddy is a member of the travelling community he can sue you for refusing to serve him!

Rubbish - Equality cases only take place where the reason for refusing to serve relates to ethnicity, or age (within the legal age limits) or sexuality etc. Where this is a good reason to refuse service (e.g. breaking the smoking ban), there will be no case for the publican to answer.

Villain

Originally posted by RainyDay
Ok, so he gets two fags & two pints. How many times do you think the barman is going to fall for this one? Maybe once? So the ban will take about one hour longer to be effective>

He go's to 4 pubs in the town now there 8pints and 8 cigs smoked i'd say paddy will be happy enough

Originally posted by RainyDay

Rubbish - Equality cases only take place where the reason for refusing to serve relates to ethnicity, or age (within the legal age limits) or sexuality etc. Where this is a good reason to refuse service (e.g. breaking the smoking ban), there will be no case for the publican to answer.

But if he puts the fag out then he's not breaking a law and you have to serve him. This is not simple.

As i said

The majority of laws are inforced by the police do, not by some health official in a suit. As I have previously stated if the police were inforcing this law then it would be accepted a lot more.

RainyDay

Originally posted by irish1
He go's to 4 pubs in the town now there 8pints and 8 cigs smoked i'd say paddy will be happy enough

Now this is getting plain silly, Irish1. What is he going to do the next night? and the next night? and the next night? So let's say it takes him a week to do the rounds of all the locals pubs? Hell, let's be generous and give him a month to do it. This is small-town Ireland we're talking about. He is going to run out of pubs pretty quickly. Do you really think Paddy is going to risk being banned from each & every pub in his locality? I don't think Paddy is that dumb.

Originally posted by irish1
But if he puts the fag out then he's not breaking a law and you have to serve him. This is not simple.

Ah now I understand. So once you slow down after speeding at 90 mph, the Gardai can't touch you.

No publican is going to be prosecuted under equality legislation for refusing to serve a smoker, whether he has the burning weed in his hand at the time or not. You have presented no evidence to demonstrate otherwise, just a pile of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt).

Villain

Originally posted by RainyDay
Now this is getting plain silly, Irish1. What is he going to do the next night? and the next night? and the next night? So let's say it takes him a week to do the rounds of all the locals pubs? Hell, let's be generous and give him a month to do it. This is small-town Ireland we're talking about. He is going to run out of pubs pretty quickly. Do you really think Paddy is going to risk being banned from each & every pub in his locality? I don't think Paddy is that dumb.

You wanna bet it won't happen, even take it he only has one pint and a fag in each pub, theres 13 in my small town so he can move from to another. I'm not saying it will I'm simply pointing out it can happen.

Originally posted by RainyDay

Ah now I understand. So once you slow down after speeding at 90 mph, the Gardai can't touch you.

Exactly mate the if you do 90 for 100 miles then know where the speed camera is and slow down to 60 going by it they can't touch you. How can they prove you were doing 90???? You picked a bad example there.

Originally posted by RainyDay

No publican is going to be prosecuted under equality legislation for refusing to serve a smoker, whether he has the burning weed in his hand at the time or not. You have presented no evidence to demonstrate otherwise, just a pile of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt).

And you have presented no evidence to demonstrate they won't be prosecuted for not serving a member of the Travelling community after he has put a fag out.

I have worked in a bar for nearly 8 years this is what I'm basing my opinion on, what are you basing yours on??

RainyDay

Originally posted by irish1
I'm not saying it will I'm simply pointing out it can happen.

Like I said, this is getting silly. So a hurricane could develop and wipe out all of the pubs, with Paddy, the Gardai, the Environmental Health Officers and the barman. Maybe we should analyse that scenario ad-nauseam too?

Exactly mate the if you do 90 for 100 miles then know where the speed camera is and slow down to 60 going by it they can't touch you. How can they prove you were doing 90???? You picked a bad example there.

Ah you got me there. Once you know where the speed cameras are, you are safe. Oh and you do know where the mobile speed traps are, don't you? and you know exactly where all the squad cars are? and the unmarked detective cars too?

Villain

Originally posted by RainyDay

Ah you got me there. Once you know where the speed cameras are, you are safe. Oh and you do know where the mobile speed traps are, don't you? and you know exactly where all the squad cars are? and the unmarked detective cars too?

/OFF Topic (but its my thread/

I drive from waterford to carlow via new ross 4-6 times a week and I can tell you exactly where the speed camera could be.

The difference here too is if I get caught speeding I get a fine and points on my licence. If I get caught smoking in a bar the barman gets a fine.

Qadhafi

I worked in a bar for 5 years and I used to smoke. now I think smoking is stupid and Im glad I stopped smoking.

Smoking in a confined space is terrible, in the short term it irritates your eyes, it gives you general colds and lots of coughing, bad breath etc. how can anyone not agree with this? Its also very expensive and for what? bad health?

Thats why I stopped smoking. I now cant stand smokers (inside) and belive that most smokers would quit if they were helped.

The smoking ban can be implemented but probably take a few months before everyone gets used to it. Smoking isnt a necessity and people's habits can change :cool:

Vader

irish1

It made me fall off my seat laughing, not that you said it but because I know so many elderly ppl who talk like that. I thought you meant it to be funny